Was I being unreasonable?

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mryan75

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mryan75
Had kind of a weird situation today with a club plane. It needed to be flown somewhere for maintenance (prop balancing), and two owners and our pilot-rated mechanic were going to do the flight. In casual conversation a few weeks ago, one of the two owners mentioned to me that they were out of medical. I knew for certain that the other owner was as well. (One of the owners is my mentor, and he has recently had health problems which I know preclude him from being PIC). It had been bugging me for the past two weeks. My concern was that if both owners were out of medical and the pilot-rated mechanic wasn't on our insurance (he is not), we would have an airplane without a legal PIC and presumably not covered by insurance either. I feel that my concern was perfectly valid.

So today I raised my concerns with the maintenance manager for the club (also a former instructor of mine, whom I incorrectly assumed I could go to in confidence), who clearly 30 seconds later went to the pilot in question and said, "so-and-so is saying you're out of medical and not legal." I was trying to be tactful by going to him, and he promptly threw me under the bus. Maybe I deserved it, I don't know.

This brought a swift and pretty nasty reaction from the pilot in question. Several rather mean-spirited texts, etc. etc. Whether I was inartful or not (I specifically said in bringing it up to the maintenance manager, "I'm coming to you out of respect for XXX"), I feel like I had a legitimate concern. Now that I've had some time to think about it, I clearly should have gone directly to the pilot in question, or my mentor, and said something along the lines of, "hey, I know you mentioned to me a few weeks ago that you are out of medical, I just want to be sure blah blah blah."

Regardless of how I went about it, I feel pretty strongly that I was well within my rights as an owner to have asked. And had the shoe been on the other foot, and somebody had gone to another member to make sure that their concerns about me were addressed, I would like to think that I would have reacted differently than this person did.

This has left me with a really bad taste in my mouth, among people that I know well and would not presume to react in such a nasty way. One person whom I thought I could trust, I clearly cannot, which stings; and the other person, who I thought of as a friend, had no problem ripping me a new one.

What do you guys think?
 
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Nothing wrong with the concern and questioning it. Maybe, as you said, better to go pilot to pilot first.
 
I guess that I would have assumed that the "pilot-rated mechanic" was legal and left it alone. This may go against your by-laws, but there are two club members in the aircraft. Regardless and not to sound mean, I do not make it a habit to police other pilots unless there was a life-or-limb situation...

Just my $0.02...
 
Sorry that happened to you. I think generally it's best to discuss issues with the people directly before going to club officers just to avoid situations like this. I'm confused a little because you referred to the two individuals as "owners" and then referred to yourself as an "owner". I'm guessing the club aircraft belong to all members? If that's the case I think you were justified in your insurance coverage concerns...
 
idahoflier said:
Sorry that happened to you. I think generally it's best to discuss issues with the people directly before going to club officers just to avoid situations like this. I'm confused a little because you referred to the two individuals as "owners" and then referred to yourself as an "owner". I'm guessing the club aircraft belong to all members? If that's the case I think you were justified in your insurance coverage concerns...
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Yes, to clarify, all three of us are owners (actually all four of us - myself, the two pilots for the flight, and the maintenance officer). The mechanic is a pilot as well, but is not a member of our club.
 
If you are the owner of the aircraft whether in part of in total you have every right to insist that all persons crewing the aircraft are legal. It’s your investment and insurers will take a very dim view of any incident that may occur. Always the problem with partnerships - it’s hard not to tread on people’s toes by asking difficult questions.
 
You probably should have gone to the pilot directly, you have a vested interest in the airplane.The pilot in question should understand it’s not all about him.
 
Mike Blackburn said:
If you are the owner of the aircraft whether in part of in total you have every right to insist that all persons crewing the aircraft are legal. It’s your investment and insurers will take a very dim view of any incident that may occur. Always the problem with partnerships - it’s hard not to tread on people’s toes by asking difficult questions.
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That's exactly how I felt. We've got $60k into this plane in the last 4-5 years (overhaul, avionics upgrades, etc.), and if something went wrong and it wasn't covered by insurance, let's just say I'd be disappointed. That's why I felt I had to ask.
 
frfly172 said:
You probably should have gone to the pilot directly, you have a vested interest in the airplane.The pilot in question should understand it’s not all about him.
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Yep. They said, "Why are you concerned about my medical? It's none of your business." I responded that I wasn't concerned about their medical, but rather our airplane, and that it was nothing personal. That brought yet another pretty unfortunate response.
 
If the mechanic is current and qualified, and meets an open pilot criteria for the insurance policy, then it isn't an issue that they are not a member/named insured. If something happens in that case, the mechanic might have exposure to a subrogation claim, but your policy would still be in effect. You have to read your policy and know the quals of the mechanic/pilot.
 
I would side with the opinion that you should have diplomatically and discretely discussed it with the pilot-mechanic; taking it up with a club officer is correct in a strict sense, but feelings will be hurt. Choose carefully which ditch you want to die in. Good luck, and be blessed.
 
Your concern seems entirely justified to me. Your mechanic could be legal PIC, but it sounds like you wouldn't be insured. It certainly seems unlikely that your insurance company would pay you anything if the pilot at the time wasn't legal, so either way you're on the hook for the full cost of any incident. You could make the flight, if that's a possibility.

Now the question is what to do with this partnership going forward?
 
You are partnered with dicks. That said, you should have gone to the pilot(s) in question, not somebody else since they are your partners. As far as the other guy you told in confidence? He did what he should have done in my opinion, which is why, as you actually stated in your post, it would have been better just to talk to the partners in question.
 
With a significant financial stake at hand,you were well within you're right to inquire about this using whatever method you felt was necessary. The fact that they got butthurt about it is not your problem. They're viplating the law as well as possibly causing you harm. They should be a little more humble and grow up.
 
Is there not an open pilot clause? If so, does the mechanic meet the requirements?
 
me? i’d be looking at my options to sell my share of the plane. maybe i’m the suspicious type (well, no maybe about that) but my first thought was what other questionable practices have been done. as an owner you had every right to question the legality of that flight. as noted by others your method should have been different but the reaction you reported was that of a 6-yr old caught with a hand in the cookie jar
 
You were definitely correct raising the issue if you were concerned whether there was a legal PIC who met insurance requirements in the aircraft, even if your concerns turned out to be unfounded.

I can't comment on tact or the reasonableness of anyone's reactions. I wasn't there, don't know the people, and have only heard one side if the story.
 
Thanks for all the responses, gents.

What occurred to me in the meantime is that the day this pilot told me they were out of medical, they had gone flying - with the other pilot who is out of medical. So for that one flight, they were definitely illegal.

That was one of the responses, something to the effect of "I wouldn't fly illegally, how dare you assume I would". And they said that in the meantime they had gone and gotten their medical, which I have my doubts about.
 
mryan75 said:
Thanks for all the responses, gents.

What occurred to me in the meantime is that the day this pilot told me they were out of medical, they had gone flying - with the other pilot who is out of medical. So for that one flight, they were definitely illegal.

That was one of the responses, something to the effect of "I wouldn't fly illegally, how dare you assume I would". And they said that in the meantime they had gone and gotten their medical, which I have my doubts about.
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Look him up on the FAA database.
 
You are justified to raise a red flag and shame on those who are willing to put your investment at risk without your full knowledge and consent, and then reacting immaturely when they were caught red handed. Like @deyoung says, what's the next step? You guys better man up and have a frank discussion like adults (maybe with a disinterested mediator present) or this thing will fall apart and people will lose money.
 
deyoung said:
Your concern seems entirely justified to me. Your mechanic could be legal PIC, but it sounds like you wouldn't be insured. It certainly seems unlikely that your insurance company would pay you anything if the pilot at the time wasn't legal, so either way you're on the hook for the full cost of any incident. You could make the flight, if that's a possibility.

Now the question is what to do with this partnership going forward?
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This is the real question. Honestly I've been wondering about this for a while. Its a great airplane and cheap, and availability is fantastic. But there are maintenance issues that don't get addressed. We had a collapsed strut that went through 4 annuals without getting fixed. It finally did this year. Then we had the overhaul, and right after the first annual after the overhaul it started leaking oil. That was not dealt with until the next annual. (It wasn't leaking much, but still). Then things like with this flight - I'm an owner, snd the decision about who would fly this flight was made with no consultation with anyone.

So the short story is, I have a great deal, but I feel like I'm flying someone else's plane, and/or being granted the privilege of flying my own plane (if that makes any sense). Decisions are made or ignored with no regard for what I think about anything.
 
mryan75 said:
This is the real question. Honestly I've been wondering about this for a while. Its a great airplane and cheap, and availability is fantastic. But there are maintenance issues that don't get addressed. We had a collapsed strut that went through 4 annuals without getting fixed. It finally did this year. Then we had the overhaul, and right after the first annual after the overhaul it started leaking oil. That was not dealt with until the next annual. (It wasn't leaking much, but still). Then things like with this flight - I'm an owner, snd the decision about who would fly this flight was made with no consultation with anyone.

So the short story is, I have a great deal, but I feel like I'm flying someone else's plane, and/or being granted the privilege of flying my own plane (if that makes any sense). Decisions are made or ignored with no regard for what I think about anything.
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That's life in a business arrangement where you are not the majority. You are learning good lessons, take them to heart.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Reason #578 I'm glad I bought my own plane.

OP, any chance you're in a financial position to buy out the plane, or sell your share and buy another one? With members like that I don't see the problem going away.
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I could sell and get into another plane locally, for more money and less availability though. I pay $70 an hour wet for an IFR-certified Cherokee with a GTN650. There are other clubs locally where I'd pay a minimum of $125 an hour. I understand these may be small numbers for some, but financially I feel like this is the deal of the century, and increasing my hourly cost 80% doesn't appeal to me, shall we say.
 
This sounds like it's going to be ugly over the long term. As someone else posted, you are partnered with dicks. Also, how does an A&P sign off on an annual with a collapsed strut?

Print out this thread and give it to them. That should bring more interesting responses.
 
simtech said:
Is there not an open pilot clause? If so, does the mechanic meet the requirements?
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My first thought as well. Just because the mechanic isn’t named on the policy doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be insured.
 
Obviously we only have a looking-through-a-keyhole limited picture of the situation, so any advice might not be good for various reasons, but that said... if it were me I would probably be looking to bail on this arrangement if it's financially reasonable for you to do so.

Maybe it's a great enough deal to put up with the nonsense. If so, good luck. It doesn't sound like a situation I would be comfortable or happy in, though.

Something else to keep in mind -- it sounds like there's a good possibility that you are at greater financial risk than you might be aware of. This maintenance flight aside, it sounds like some of your partners have few qualms flying on an expired medical, and you don't really trust them when they say "not so!" If one of them bends your airplane in a field on some future flight, the full cost of that will still come out of your (collective) pocket. You can't trust that you have reliable insurance coverage going forward unless you're the one flying.

[Edited to add:] Worse, instead of bending it in a field, they bend it running it into someone's Lexus, and even worse injure someone on the ground in the process. I am not a lawyer, but it wouldn't surprise me if the whole partnership is exposed to liability in such a case. Again, without insurance help.
 
mryan75 said:
Yep. They said, "Why are you concerned about my medical? It's none of your business." I responded that I wasn't concerned about their medical, but rather our airplane, and that it was nothing personal. That brought yet another pretty unfortunate response.
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while I normally am a live and let live person, they're putting you at risk by flying the airplane in a potentially uninsured condition. I'd be pretty hot if they were doing this and ran the prop into the back of the PC 12 parked next door and the owner showed up at MY door for 100K to fix it because insurance wasn't in effect.
 
mondtster said:
My first thought as well. Just because the mechanic isn’t named on the policy doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be insured.
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is he PIC while sitting in the backseat. AND, would the mechanic, sitting in the backseat, of a plane that just had an accident, spring forward and say "I'M PIC!!! Please violate and sue me, not the guy at the yoke"?
 
What is the structure of your "club"? Are you formalized as in an LLC? Is there a lawyer reviewed partnership agreement? Does it spell out responsibilities of each member/owner? If not, you are exposed by the actions of the other members. If someone gets hurt, and the insurance doesn't respond or is inadequate, you are a target. Are you allowed to sell your share to another party? If so, does it require unanimous approval? Lot's of questions. I understand your costs are reasonable but dealing with people like this sucks the life out of a person.
 
MIFlyer said:
is he PIC while sitting in the backseat. AND, would the mechanic, sitting in the backseat, of a plane that just had an accident, spring forward and say "I'M PIC!!! Please violate and sue me, not the guy at the yoke"?
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I don't think that we had gotten to the level of detail of the seating arrangements of this seemingly veteran, save the mechanic, crew...
 
dmspilot said:
Having a collapsed strut go through 4 annuals is not acceptable. It's not surprising the same people that would let a defect go for that long would also fly without a medical.
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Exactly. What's the cost to fix a strut divided by 4? JFC, I'm sharing the airways with people like this.
 
Rooney Freimund said:
I don't think that we had gotten to the level of detail of the seating arrangements of this seemingly veteran, save the mechanic, crew...
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That's fair, but I would be stunned to see a real situation where the two pilots/owners wouldn't both sit in the back and have the non-owner mechanic sit in the back
 
Glen R said:
What is the structure of your "club"? Are you formalized as in an LLC? Is there a lawyer reviewed partnership agreement? Does it spell out responsibilities of each member/owner? If not, you are exposed by the actions of the other members. If someone gets hurt, and the insurance doesn't respond or is inadequate, you are a target. Are you allowed to sell your share to another party? If so, does it require unanimous approval? Lot's of questions. I understand your costs are reasonable but dealing with people like this sucks the life out of a person.
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It is an LLC. There are no formal rules at all (at least that I've seen, and I've asked). We just have an online scheduler. I say we're a "club" and it is "XYZ Flying Club, LLC", but I've never seen any kind of club rules, I've never seen the LLC agreement, the insurance policy. Nothin'.

One thing I've been irritated by over the years is exactly this type of thing: the lack of any rules. For example, nobody was informed about putting in the 650. We were just told that it had been put in, and that the loan for the overhaul had been "reworked" to cover the cost of the 650. Sometimes we get random bills without being consulted, like for new radios (that was at least a grand a head if I remember correctly) and ADSB. no discussion, no "do you guys think we should....". It's done and we get a bill. Granted, I think the upgrades have been great, but nobody was consulted.

Or this flight, I was originally scheduled to go (which is why I wasn't concerned knowing the other pilot was out of medical - I am and am legal). Then out of the blue I get a text that the other pilot was going, not me. I wasn't asked, I was told. Now again, the other pilot is my mentor and I will never be able to repay him everything he's done for me in aviation, but still.

It's kind of a long and winding tale. I consider(ed) these people friends. I was disavowed of that notion this morning.
 
Somewhere, someone in the group has the legal documents regarding the arrangement. How did you enter into the group? What paperwork did you sign, did you receive? You need to get copies of everything including the insurance policy on the airplane.

Based on the legal definition of the group, then you can go to the entire group and broach the issue of how decisions are made, specifically those that required lots of $$$.
 
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