Number of approaches for IR ride

mryan75

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mryan75
Quick question: the ACS lists 3 types of approaches, the nonprecision, precision, circling (and missed if that counts). I was under the impression (from an instructor who may be going on old knowledge/the PTS) that you had to do a VOR, an ILS, and an RNAV approach for the checkride - 3 separate approaches.

Which is correct? By my reading of the ACS, you could do an RNAV, an ILS, and a circling approach and that's that. The reason I ask is because it ain't easy finding a VOR approach 'round here. I'd have to fly 50 minutes away (with the DPE) just to get that one VOR approach in. Then 50 minutes back. Everything else can be done at my home drone.

Thanks!
 
You have to do three...a Precision, a Nonprecision straight-in, and a Nonprecision circle. One approach has to be an RNAV, the others are dealer’s choice.
 
I did 2 RNAVs, one counted as the precision (LPV) the other as non precision (MDA), the last was a LOC approach, circle to land. This was the end of February and there are plenty of VOR approaches around here. You should fly a few in training just so you can experience it.
 
Most ILSs have a LOC line for minimums, could that be used in your case for a non precision approach?
Very true! We have an ILS, localizer and circling on the same plate (ILS or LOC RWY 33 at KRME), and the RNAV 33 has lines for LPV, LNAV/VNAV (both with DA's) and an LNAV with an MDA.

Thanks guys, very helpful!
 
and remember. you're only supposed to fly DME arcs if they are "charted and available." My DPE made me fly a random DME arc, I didn't have the heart to tell him mid ride that I shouldn't be tested on an uncharted DME arc. But, one of the approaches we flew had one (Which I got RV to), so I didn't make too big of a deal because it probably saved me 15 minutes of flying time.
 
Mine was an ILS (one that has an autopilot disconnect altitude, so that would have been tested too if the DPE had seen the ancient autopilot in the Arrow I was using), a non-LPV RNAV (partial panel - DPE shut off both G5s) and a VOR with a published hold and circle to land (it technically has straight in minimums, but the approach leaves you so high that it is perfect for circling).

You have to do three...a Precision, a Nonprecision straight-in, and a Nonprecision circle. One approach has to be an RNAV, the others are dealer’s choice.

No RNAV required if the aircraft doesn't have a GPS.

I did 2 RNAVs, one counted as the precision (LPV) the other as non precision (MDA), the last was a LOC approach, circle to land. This was the end of February and there are plenty of VOR approaches around here. You should fly a few in training just so you can experience it.

They counted an LPV as a precision?

and remember. you're only supposed to fly DME arcs if they are "charted and available." My DPE made me fly a random DME arc, I didn't have the heart to tell him mid ride that I shouldn't be tested on an uncharted DME arc. But, one of the approaches we flew had one (Which I got RV to), so I didn't make too big of a deal because it probably saved me 15 minutes of flying time.

It has been well over a year since DME arcs were tested, unless for a CFII.
 
Many moons ago, I did an ILS/LOC approach. Called out the minimums for the LOC and continued on the ILS to a miss. Did the published hold and came back for a VOR/ DME arc. I may or may not have labeled an ADF as INOP for the ride...
 
Mine was an ILS (one that has an autopilot disconnect altitude, so that would have been tested too if the DPE had seen the ancient autopilot in the Arrow I was using), a non-LPV RNAV (partial panel - DPE shut off both G5s) and a VOR with a published hold and circle to land (it technically has straight in minimums, but the approach leaves you so high that it is perfect for circling).



No RNAV required if the aircraft doesn't have a GPS.



They counted an LPV as a precision?



It has been well over a year since DME arcs were tested, unless for a CFII.

LPV with 200 foot decision height, yes sir.
 
It is pretty easy. 1 Precision (ILS is the only precision), and two non-precision.
  • You must do circle to land on one approach.
  • You must do a partial panel approach.
  • If you have an auto pilot, you must use it on one, but not all approaches.
  • A LPV can be substituted for the precision, cuts down on the travel required.

A typical setup would be to start do a non-precision potentially with an arc, an ILS/LPV, and a non-precision with a circle to land while on partial panel. Obviously it depends on the location, wind direction and approaches available to the plane. Of course you have all the normal Holds, etc required.
 
A CFII question — I sit here thinking of my VFR panel and my goals of getting IR someday, along with the new Garmin GPS 175. Is it even possible (leaving aside smart or advisable) to train & take the IR checkride in a GPS-only aircraft (ie, no nav radio)?

“Ask your CFII” of course, but I don’t have one, being I have a VFR only plane at present.
 
Can you complete the 3 different approaches in that aircraft?
 
Can you complete the 3 different approaches in that aircraft?

3 Approaches. LPV substitutes for precision, because it has precision minimums. WAAS equipped aircraft are IFR legal on GPS only. Lots of GPS approaches with circling procedures and lots of non-precision ones.
 
Per the ACS, it is acceptable to substitute an LPV for the precision approach if there are no precision approaches available.



Arcs are still listed in the ACS.

Arcs must be demonstrated in training, but not on the checkride.
 
Arcs must be demonstrated in training, but not on the checkride.

Funny, I just did my checkride last week and realized we never flew an arc in training.

Just for more data, my checkride was an ILS, missed to hold, VOR-A to the same field (KMRB) then off to do the usual UAs and such then an LNAV GPS (partial panel) circle to land back at KFDK. 1.4 flight time.
 
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The DPE that did my instrument ride was very efficient (since he did a lot of rides at his home airport). We took off, the ODP had a hold in it so that got rid of that. Flew back and did the ILS then departed and did the various airwork (unusual attitudes, intercept headings, etc..) on the way to setup for the GPS approach (partial panel). From the missed from that we came back and did a LOC with circle to land.
 
Quick question: the ACS lists 3 types of approaches, the nonprecision, precision, circling (and missed if that counts). I was under the impression (from an instructor who may be going on old knowledge/the PTS) that you had to do a VOR, an ILS, and an RNAV approach for the checkride - 3 separate approaches.

Which is correct? By my reading of the ACS, you could do an RNAV, an ILS, and a circling approach and that's that. The reason I ask is because it ain't easy finding a VOR approach 'round here. I'd have to fly 50 minutes away (with the DPE) just to get that one VOR approach in. Then 50 minutes back. Everything else can be done at my home drone.

Thanks!

Short answer to your specific question - an available and fully functioning ILS will provide you with two "legal" options, a Precision Approach and a Nonprecision approach (flown LOC only.) That would leave RNAV as an acceptable third type of approach.

Appendix 7 can be found on page A-15 and A-16 of the Instrument Rating ACS (currently FAA-S-ACS-8B).

This lists the requirements for the Nonprecision and Precision Approach Tasks in Area of Operation VI., Instrument Approach Procedures.

Task A. Nonprecision Approach

The evaluator will select nonprecision approaches representative of the type that the applicant is likely to use. The choices must use at least two different types of navigational aids.

Examples of acceptable nonprecision approaches include: VOR, VOR/DME, LOC procedures on an ILS, LDA, RNAV (RNP) or RNAV (GPS) to LNAV, LNAV/VNAV or LPV line of minima as long as the LPV DA is greater than 300 feet HAT. The equipment must be installed and the database must be current and qualified to fly GPS-based approaches.

"The applicant must accomplish at least two nonprecision approaches in simulated or actual weather conditions.

• One must include a procedure turn or, in the case of a GPS-based approach, a Terminal Arrival Area (TAA) procedure.
• At least one must be flown without the use of autopilot and without the assistance of radar vectors. The yaw damper and flight director are not considered parts of the autopilot for purposes of this Task.
• One is expected to be flown with reference to backup or partial panel instrumentation or navigation display, depending on the aircraft’s instrument avionics configuration, representing the failure mode(s) most realistic for the equipment used."

The evaluator has discretion to have the applicant perform a landing or a missed approach at the completion of each non precision approach.

Task B. Precision Approach

The applicant must accomplish a precision approach to the decision altitude (DA) using aircraft navigational equipment for centerline and vertical guidance in simulated or actual instrument conditions. Acceptable instrument approaches for this part of the practical test are the ILS and GLS. In addition, if the installed equipment and database is current and qualified for IFR flight and approaches to LPV minima, an LPV minima approach can be flown to demonstrate precision approach proficiency if the LPV DA is equal to or less than 300 feet HAT.

The evaluator has discretion to have the applicant perform a landing or a missed approach at the completion of the precision approach.

Task VI.D., Circling Approach, must also be accomplished somewhere within this matrix.

I attempt to meet these requirements with three approaches. It's not always possible based on ATC and traffic flow. We're mixing quite a lot of requirements from Appendix 7 into the two Nonprecision approach tasks.

It has been well over a year since DME arcs were tested, unless for a CFII.

They remain an ACS task (Task V.A., Intercepting and Tracking Navigational Systems and Arcs) and are still tested under the Instrument Rating Airplane ACS. But, they are only tested at the evaluator's discretion and under the following conditions:

"While the applicant is expected to be able to fly DME Arcs, they may be selected for testing only if they are charted and available."​

This makes it clear to the applicant and instructor that training must be accomplished for DME arcs. Also, as an ACS task, at least one knowledge element must be evaluated. Both of the knowledge elements in that task reference arcs.

The applicant could "skip" training DME arcs and perhaps get lucky on the checkride, but the very unlucky possible result is that the evaluator will select a charted and available for arc for testing. It would be unlikely the outcome would be a good one for the applicant in that case.

Hope this helps,



 
It also requires a DME in the aircraft. My contention is the wording of the PCS prohibits an examiner asking for DME arcs if the airplane is only equipped with a GPS.
 
It also requires a DME in the aircraft. My contention is the wording of the PCS prohibits an examiner asking for DME arcs if the airplane is only equipped with a GPS.

An IFR GPS may be used in lieu of DME for the DME arc task. There is no prohibition against doing so or requesting the applicant demonstrate the skill if the aircraft is equipped with an IFR GPS vs. actual DME.
 
It also requires a DME in the aircraft. My contention is the wording of the PCS prohibits an examiner asking for DME arcs if the airplane is only equipped with a GPS.

That's what I understood as well. I flew DME arcs in practice but it was unnecessary to demonstrate on the checkride. My plane was equipped with a WAAS GPS and VOR so I did for my checkride a precision LPV, non-precision LNAV and a VOR circle to land. Also had an autopilot so had to demonstrate use of that as well.
 
Then why is it in the ACS?

Must is different than can. It is an option.
I believe the arc must be published and available for the DPE to assign one during a check ride. If one isn't convenient then it isn't done.
 
I believe the arc must be published and available for the DPE to assign one during a check ride. If one isn't convenient then it isn't done.

True, and that was noted above by a DPE. It has been that way for quite a while.

There are no arcs on published approaches in my immediate area so I’ve never had a student get tested on an arc when using the local DPE. The DPE at another airport I sometimes use tests applicants on arcs because there are a couple that are published for that airport. Maybe the guys being tested on the arc are getting more for their money? Ha.
 
True, and that was noted above by a DPE. It has been that way for quite a while.

There are no arcs on published approaches in my immediate area so I’ve never had a student get tested on an arc when using the local DPE. The DPE at another airport I sometimes use tests applicants on arcs because there are a couple that are published for that airport. Maybe the guys being tested on the arc are getting more for their money? Ha.

Well, maybe a related question, can you really "fail" your checkride if you can't perform something that isn't a requirement? Taking a similar situation for the PPL checkride: if you are asked to do lazy 8's on your PPL checkride and fail it, can the DPE fail the checkride for that? Lazy 8's CAN be a CPL checkride requirement for those that don't know.
 
Well, maybe a related question, can you really "fail" your checkride if you can't perform something that isn't a requirement? Taking a similar situation for the PPL checkride: if you are asked to do lazy 8's on your PPL checkride and fail it, can the DPE fail the checkride for that? Lazy 8's CAN be a CPL checkride requirement for those that don't know.

I just did the IFR in Feb. I was told that if I screw up an approach that there was no second chance, he was required to fail. Now I didn't ask if that meant if I realized it wasn't going right and went missed, would that count as a fail. But published DME arcs are part of an approach so if you mess up you fail on a ride that follows the rules.
 
Short answer to your specific question - an available and fully functioning ILS will provide you with two "legal" options, a Precision Approach and a Nonprecision approach (flown LOC only.) That would leave RNAV as an acceptable third type of approach.

Appendix 7 can be found on page A-15 and A-16 of the Instrument Rating ACS (currently FAA-S-ACS-8B).

This lists the requirements for the Nonprecision and Precision Approach Tasks in Area of Operation VI., Instrument Approach Procedures.

Task A. Nonprecision Approach

The evaluator will select nonprecision approaches representative of the type that the applicant is likely to use. The choices must use at least two different types of navigational aids.

Examples of acceptable nonprecision approaches include: VOR, VOR/DME, LOC procedures on an ILS, LDA, RNAV (RNP) or RNAV (GPS) to LNAV, LNAV/VNAV or LPV line of minima as long as the LPV DA is greater than 300 feet HAT. The equipment must be installed and the database must be current and qualified to fly GPS-based approaches.

"The applicant must accomplish at least two nonprecision approaches in simulated or actual weather conditions.

• One must include a procedure turn or, in the case of a GPS-based approach, a Terminal Arrival Area (TAA) procedure.
• At least one must be flown without the use of autopilot and without the assistance of radar vectors. The yaw damper and flight director are not considered parts of the autopilot for purposes of this Task.
• One is expected to be flown with reference to backup or partial panel instrumentation or navigation display, depending on the aircraft’s instrument avionics configuration, representing the failure mode(s) most realistic for the equipment used."

The evaluator has discretion to have the applicant perform a landing or a missed approach at the completion of each non precision approach.

Task B. Precision Approach

The applicant must accomplish a precision approach to the decision altitude (DA) using aircraft navigational equipment for centerline and vertical guidance in simulated or actual instrument conditions. Acceptable instrument approaches for this part of the practical test are the ILS and GLS. In addition, if the installed equipment and database is current and qualified for IFR flight and approaches to LPV minima, an LPV minima approach can be flown to demonstrate precision approach proficiency if the LPV DA is equal to or less than 300 feet HAT.

The evaluator has discretion to have the applicant perform a landing or a missed approach at the completion of the precision approach.

Task VI.D., Circling Approach, must also be accomplished somewhere within this matrix.

I attempt to meet these requirements with three approaches. It's not always possible based on ATC and traffic flow. We're mixing quite a lot of requirements from Appendix 7 into the two Nonprecision approach tasks.



They remain an ACS task (Task V.A., Intercepting and Tracking Navigational Systems and Arcs) and are still tested under the Instrument Rating Airplane ACS. But, they are only tested at the evaluator's discretion and under the following conditions:

"While the applicant is expected to be able to fly DME Arcs, they may be selected for testing only if they are charted and available."​

This makes it clear to the applicant and instructor that training must be accomplished for DME arcs. Also, as an ACS task, at least one knowledge element must be evaluated. Both of the knowledge elements in that task reference arcs.

The applicant could "skip" training DME arcs and perhaps get lucky on the checkride, but the very unlucky possible result is that the evaluator will select a charted and available for arc for testing. It would be unlikely the outcome would be a good one for the applicant in that case.

Hope this helps,



That is as comprehensive an answer as I could hope for. Many thanks, Ryan!
 
Well, maybe a related question, can you really "fail" your checkride if you can't perform something that isn't a requirement? Taking a similar situation for the PPL checkride: if you are asked to do lazy 8's on your PPL checkride and fail it, can the DPE fail the checkride for that? Lazy 8's CAN be a CPL checkride requirement for those that don't know.

Staying on topic, based on how I interpret the ACS I’d say yes you’re going to fail if you can’t fly an arc and if there was one published and that was the entry procedure the DPE selected to test on.

If the DPE asked you to perform a task that wasn’t in the ACS and failed you on it however, you might be able to appeal that decision. I recall having to do steep turns on my instrument checkride even though they weren’t in the PTS any longer (they still are in the CFI-I PTS). I didn’t fail but I suppose if I had and the DPE knew they were no longer in the PTS the ride may have continued.
 
Staying on topic, based on how I interpret the ACS I’d say yes you’re going to fail if you can’t fly an arc and if there was one published and that was the entry procedure the DPE selected to test on.

If the DPE asked you to perform a task that wasn’t in the ACS and failed you on it however, you might be able to appeal that decision. I recall having to do steep turns on my instrument checkride even though they weren’t in the PTS any longer (they still are in the CFI-I PTS). I didn’t fail but I suppose if I had and the DPE knew they were no longer in the PTS the ride may have continued.

Yeah sorry not trying to de-rail the thread. Just wondering how that would work. If you can't actually be tested on a DME arc because you can't legally fly one on an approach because you don't have the required equipment to properly identify the IAF or FAF. But the DPE makes you fly it anyway without the required equipment, for fun or for..whatever reason. How is that failable?
 
That is as comprehensive an answer as I could hope for. Many thanks, Ryan!

If you are using Foreflight, down load the ACS , part 61 and 91. Then every time you have a question, find the answer, book mark it with a descriptive entry and highlight it. I figured this out late in my training and it helped tremendously for the oral. I also downloaded the AIM, terps, chart supplement, part 97, 8083-2, TAC legend, IFR low legend, NOAA imagery legend, VFR chart legend, Aeronautical chart user's guide and AWC contractions, plus the ifr handbooks. I used them all and it was easier to find answers in those then Sporty's course. Once you find an answer, book mark it, works great.
 
Yeah sorry not trying to de-rail the thread. Just wondering how that would work. If you can't actually be tested on a DME arc because you can't legally fly one on an approach because you don't have the required equipment to properly identify the IAF or FAF. But the DPE makes you fly it anyway without the required equipment, for fun or for..whatever reason. How is that failable?

I think the number of cases in which that would happen are rare enough to not sweat it. DPEs aren’t dumb; they have to have a plan of action for a checkride and they get observed by the feds periodically so I don’t think there are going to be many deviations from the ACS.

I’d venture to guess that much of the confusion (such as what is in this thread) is on the CFI/student side of the equation rather than the DPE side.
 
I think the number of cases in which that would happen are rare enough to not sweat it. DPEs aren’t dumb; they have to have a plan of action for a checkride and they get observed by the feds periodically so I don’t think there are going to be many deviations from the ACS.

I’d venture to guess that much of the confusion (such as what is in this thread) is on the CFI/student side of the equation rather than the DPE side.

Yep, fair point. I tend to overthink things..a LOT. I'll table my "splitting hairs" comments for now :). thanks!
 
My IR ride was in 2011, so I'm not current on the check ride requirements. However, the precision, non-precision and circle to land sound about right. And, can you fail the ride if you blow an approach? You bet you can. I got too low on the non-precision approach and had to take a re-ride. So, yes, it can happen.

DME arcs are so simple that if one was charted and you were asked to fly it, I'd consider it a gift.
 
Well, maybe a related question, can you really "fail" your checkride if you can't perform something that isn't a requirement? Taking a similar situation for the PPL checkride: if you are asked to do lazy 8's on your PPL checkride and fail it, can the DPE fail the checkride for that? Lazy 8's CAN be a CPL checkride requirement for those that don't know.

Well, the ACS contains Task V.A. called "Intercepting and Tracking Navigational Systems and Arcs." Skill IR.V.A.S6 states "Apply proper correction to maintain a course, allowing no more than ¾-scale deflection of the CDI. If a DME arc is selected, maintain that arc ±1 nautical mile." Evaluators are required to test ALL skills. Clearly within this skill the arc is an option at the discretion of the evaluator. Appendix 7 states "While the applicant is expected to be able to fly DME Arcs, they may be selected for testing only if they are charted and available."

Therefore, yes. If the applicant furnishes an aircraft which is capable of flying DME arcs (this includes aircraft with an IFR GPS and no DME), and the examiner selects a charted and available DME arc to fly, the applicant must fly it within the tolerances stated - ±1 nautical mile.

An instructor "skipping" training on arcs on the hopes that the applicant won't be tested on them is doing his/her student a disservice, in my opinion.
 
An instructor "skipping" training on arcs on the hopes that the applicant won't be tested on them is doing his/her student a disservice, in my opinion.

Totally agree on this. I am definitely not advocating skipping it because it may or may not be relevant. Clearly it is relevant and something people use. thanks for the reference!
 
Can you complete the 3 different approaches in that aircraft?

OK, I did my homework last night, talk about acronym soup. I think if the aircraft is equipped with WAAS GPS *only* (no VHF NAV radio), I'm reading the ACS Appendix 7 as answering "no" to this.
  • Precision: LPV with DA 300 or less is an acceptable substitute per the ACS -- check.
  • Non-Precision (x2): ACS says "nonprecision approaches representative of the type that the applicant is likely to use. The choices must use at least two different types of navigational aids." -- the list that follows included multiple GPS-based approach types, but the bolded requirement seems to indicate that having both be GPS-based is no bueno.
So a VHF NAV would seem to be still required for VOR / LOC approaches for training and checkride purposes, even if a GPS-only aircraft is a legal IFR machine.
 
There was some concern years back when ADFs were disappearing (and GPS was not on the scene) that the ILS and LOC on the same approach couldn't be used as two of the approaches in the old PTS, but the new ACS makes that clear. I agree, GPS with no VOR or LOC (or ADF) receiver is going to make it hard to make the two different non-precision approaches.

Since I still had a DME in my plane, I was set to fly DME arcs. Frankly, it's a comparatively easy task to master (though some of the explanations make it sound much harder than it is). If you can track a VOR, you can track a DME arc. They give you up to a mile error.
 
An IFR GPS may be used in lieu of DME for the DME arc task. There is no prohibition against doing so or requesting the applicant demonstrate the skill if the aircraft is equipped with an IFR GPS vs. actual DME.
Ah, yes. They have changed that in one of the ACS revisions with regard to airplanes. There was previously a "so equipped" statement that limited it to actually having a DME. That is still in force for Instrument tests in other than an airplane (powered lift or helicopters).
 
Ah, yes. They have changed that in one of the ACS revisions with regard to airplanes. There was previously a "so equipped" statement that limited it to actually having a DME. That is still in force for Instrument tests in other than an airplane (powered lift or helicopters).

I assume you're referencing the deleted note from 8 (current is 8B) on the Task in question.
 
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