NEXRAD comparison between ForeFlight & EFIS

Bill Watson

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Durham NC
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Display name:
MauleDriver
Last week I was flying from Pittsburgh’s KAGC to Durham’s KRDU and needed to get past a weak frontal line of convective buildups. Comparing the the NEXRAD imagery on an experimental GRT EFIS and an iPad running ForeFlight was a bit of a shock. I successfully used the EFIS imagery to penetrate the line.
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But looking at the same weather on the iPad, I was unable to see the hole that was there on the EFIS.
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This is the first time I’ve seen such a discrepancy. Thoughts?


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I’m not very impressed with the clarity of FIS-B weather on the iPad. It’s definitely a good tool to have but the quality of XM WX thru the GDL-69 is much better. I believe the refresh rate is quicker also.
 
Well...first of all you need to set ForeFlight to hide distant traffic to take all those unnecessary traffic targets off your screen. It looks like your screen resolution is much wider on ForeFlight...you are looking at at least a 100mile wide view on ForeFlight compared to much less on your efis. If you are looking for a possible hole, you need to zoom in a bit. Also set ForeFlight to track up instead of North up. I don’t like the square blocks..but you don’t have a monthly fee either.
It’s not clear why any of the above would improve the NEXRAD (FIS-B) imagery relative to the FIS-B display on the GRT.

I like showing all the traffic on FF because it gives me something else to look at on CC legs. The traffic display on the GRT is filtered down by altitude or vertical proximity. I didn’t know either system allows you to filter on horizontal distance but zoom is effective in doing that. Has no effect on weather depiction.

Regarding resolution - I think you are referring to zoom level. The only thing I did to come up with comparable zoom level was to look at the relative distance to KLYH. I think i have the zoom level set about the same on both systems. When I noticed the discrepancy I zoomed in and out to see if I could improve things. The image displayed is the best I could do using zoom.

I learned to fly cross country using pilotage circling in sailplanes before GPS. I always kept North up on the map because there simply isn’t room or time to rotate sectionals (or TACs) in a sailplane cockpit. I fly the view and the panel mount EFIS. I use FF as a more strategic navigation planning tool. North-up works easily and well for me, no change desired.

Both displays are ADSB or FIS-B sources. I got rid of XM 5 years ago for price reasons.


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Just to be clear, I love ForeFlight on the iPad. Made a special effort to build a center console with a RAM mount for the iPad that makes it at least as easy to use as any panel mount instrument.

ForeFlight and the other tablet based product are game changers. Just because of the ability to constantly update both the HW and the SW, those kinds of products will always lead panel mount equipment in terms of function and ease of use. If they don’t, wait 2 years and take another look.

I’ve been flying with iPad for 7 years now, just as I’e been flying the GRT EFIS equipment. ADSB has been in for 5 years though I just got the Sentry product to put the traffic and weather on the iPad. In 6 months of flying, this is the first time I noticed the rather extreme difference in NEXRAD resolution. It was a surprise.

Now when listening to people’s opinion of using NEXRAD for storm avoidance, I’ll be more aware of what kind of display product is being used. I simply could not have used the
Foreflight/Sentry display to help penetrate this line of buildups. The GRT/Navworx display helped a lot.

However, keeping the Mark 20 eyeballs engaged is the real key to summer buildup avoidance.


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Bill,

What ADS-B receivers do you have feeding each system? It sounds like you have a Sentry feeding the iPad, and presumably something aircraft-mounted to feed the GRT EFIS?

I ask because what this looks like to me is that ForeFlight is only showing the nationwide radar feed, and not the higher-resolution regional radar feed.

How long after departure was this? How and where do you have the Sentry mounted? Is there anything that could have caused it to reboot before this? Did you check to see if it had received the regional radar? (More->Devices->Sentry... I don't have one so you'll have to go from there but it should either be right there or one obvious level deeper.)
 
Bill,

What ADS-B receivers do you have feeding each system? It sounds like you have a Sentry feeding the iPad, and presumably something aircraft-mounted to feed the GRT EFIS?

I ask because what this looks like to me is that ForeFlight is only showing the nationwide radar feed, and not the higher-resolution regional radar feed.

How long after departure was this? How and where do you have the Sentry mounted? Is there anything that could have caused it to reboot before this? Did you check to see if it had received the regional radar? (More->Devices->Sentry... I don't have one so you'll have to go from there but it should either be right there or one obvious level deeper.)

I have the Sentry feeding the iPad and the experimental Navworx box feeding the GRT. (Navworx is the company that had their experimental ADSB box left unapproved by the FAA due to an uncertified WAAS GPS chip in the box. It performed for years to spec without a single failure or loss of spec performance but it never went thru the cert process. Navworx tried to play hardball and lost. I got lucky because I had a G430WAAS which could be used as the WAAS source so I can use the box for the ADSB requirement. Many got screwed on that one).

It was about an hour after departure. No reboots that I was aware of. It’s mounted vertically on the rear window per instructions. I’ll have look at the regional radar thing, Thanks!


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Threading a needle around weather using ADS-B weather data is risky no matter what system you are using. I wish you luck.

The display on your efis reads ADS-B 8. Does that mean 8 minutes old ?

The ‘8’? I don’t know but when I do check the age of the image I recall seeing something like ‘00:08:00’. I hate not being able to identify a bit of data so I’ll have to research that 8.

You are right about weather and ADS-B data, or XM data, or even old Cheap Bastard data (pre-XM airborne NEXRAD on a communicating Palm Pilot, Ha!)

But I’ve been using airborne NEXRAD imagery for so long to navigate my little flivvers around SE US weather, that it doesn’t feel all that risky. It feels ‘better informed’. Fact is I scared myself more than once in my old Maule trying to get around and through convective buildups and such without NEXRAD. I’ve stayed scare free in the 10+ years since with NEXRAD imagery, so there’s that.

But the key is never to do it blind. You must have eyeballs on the buildups 90%+ of the time, most of the flying is visual. NEXRAD tells you whether to go around that monster to the left or right or perhaps to hang a 90 or 180. And it’s very good at that!

Maybe I need to add not to rely solely on iPad and Sentry unless regional radar is displayed... I’ll have to dig deeper there.

Note that I was flying at 10k, a bit higher than normal, but if mic’d you would have heard me swearing about the fact that I had left my O2 out - 12k would have been even more comfortable. Higher is always better in my experience.


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I am impressed with your efis. It does a nice job...no argument there. I have flown around buildups on the ipad with ForeFlight and Stratux, but like you said, I always had a visual. I appreciate your posting here..it makes me dig deeper into the subject matter.
I’m getting a better idea of some folks concerns with using FIS-B for storm avoidance.

I recall little difference between XM and FIS-B NEXRAD on the GRT EFID (but no side by side comparison was done).

The EFIS in the pic is from the GRT HXr and has more screen real estate and resolution Than the smaller HX display I have in installed in 2 other positions. I just upgraded the pilot position unit to the HXr. Notably, the NEXRAD images are identical on the lower and higher resolution screens. But this is all experimental equipment that most here can’t use so...


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Here is where I am confused: the view that you receive from the ADS-B tower is dependent on your ADS-B altitude. If you are over 3000 feet AGL, you should be receiving the Conus view. If that is the case, both screens should be showing the same data at the same resolution.

You should get *both* over 3000 AGL... And the displays generally will display the regional radar within 250nm, and the ConUS radar farther than that if you're zoomed out. Garmin's GTN units (and presumably Garmin Pilot) do let you pick and choose, which can exclude one or the other (my GTN came with the regional disabled, I had to manually enable their C(R) view).
 
View attachment 74105
No reply from ForeFlight as of today.

After reading the user guide, I am pretty sure “zooming in” will give you better resolution. It is interesting that the Conus view is updated every 15 minutes compared to the Regional view being updated every 5 minutes. I think this answers the initial question on this thread.

I didn’t have enough convection on the way down to Marsh Habour to play with the zoom but I’m sure my luck won’t hold for the return. Will report back if I get some insight.


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Be careful. At least we figured out why you were seeing two views.

It’s still not clear to me.

The NEXRAD imagery I get on the ground through the Web on FF is at least the same quality as I get in the air on my EFIS. I don’t have a clue as to where the Web based NEXRAD stuff sourced.

Then as much as I’ve used Sentry and the iPad over the past year or so, I just don’t remember ever seeing such a difference.

CONUS or Regional - we’re assuming which is better? And what would I be seeing at 10k zoomed in to less than 250nm?

I remain a bit baffled... but I will be careful.


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Be careful. At least we figured out why you were seeing two views.

Negative - ForeFlight will display the regional radar if it has been received, and you shouldn't see the blocky view from the OP close to you.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find a screen shot that had both. :dunno: I'll have to try to get one next time I go flying in stormy weather.
 
I know my GDL 50 + Garmin Pilot were actually doing better than the XM weather in my friend's Cirrus the other day, though we were using both to avoid some uncharacteristically bothersome systems along the Central Coast of California.
 
Remember folks....none of this info is "real-time". It gets stale real quick...especially with a squall line of thunder boomers. It shouldn't be used for "tactical" navigation. It's great for strategic but not so much for real-time tactical.
 
Remember folks....none of this info is "real-time". It gets stale real quick...especially with a squall line of thunder boomers. It shouldn't be used for "tactical" navigation. It's great for strategic but not so much for real-time tactical.
Knew this was coming as it always does in discussion of NEXRAD use in the cockpit. It’s a responsible perspective and lacking an agreed to definition of ‘strategic’ vs ‘tactical’, it’s arguably correct.

But I do disagree. NEXRAD in the cockpit is and has been a game changer for this pilot’s day to day flying in convective conditions. That’s tactical weather avoidance in my book. But a good number of qualifications need to be stated.

Flying around a squall line of TS is generally not recommended for the light plane and it’s pilot. It’s good to know where it is and how it’s moving based on Nexrad animation features. In my part of the country it’s useful to understand where you can exploit the SW to NE tailwind in front of it and where you can experience improving conditions behind it but most important, penetration is not a good practice. If it’s a fast mover, waiting is the best strategy.

But moving around the SE US requires flying on days with TS strong convective buildups if you want to go places on any kind of schedule. Using Nexrad, in the air, is the best way to do that. While flying underneath and avoiding rain shafts is viable, I like to get as far above cloud base as I can comfortably, and fly around the buildups.

It often requires making decisions about whether to go left or right to circumvent a buildup based on cells that are not yet visible to the eye, or onboard radar for that matter. That is where in certain circumstances, Nexrad can even be better than on board radar. That was my experience on one flight around JAX some years ago.

Of course the best approach is to have radar, Nexrad, and Stormscope-like technology on board but few of us can do that in our SEL flivvers. And even with all that aboard, it’s best simply to not penetrate large, tall or embedded, convective buildups in our planes.

Use the Mark 20 eyeballs to stay clear of those churning piles of trouble. And then use whatever tools you have to help your decision making to get around them safely and in the calmest air you can find.

Since I’ve never flown with on board radar or a Stormscope, this advice is given with only limited knowledge and experience so be careful out there.


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View attachment 74187
Bill, since
we both live in NC, we need to meet at BQ1 sometime and enjoy a meal together. ForeFlight did send me a reply to my question. You were seeing the Regional view on Efis and Conus view on the ipad. Look at the attachment.


That looks like confirmation of the answer!

BQ1, I’d like that. May be a few weeks.

Just had a family emergency that’s going to take me, hopefully, on a 4 leg journey from the Abacos to Pittsburgh tomorrow. As luck would have it, it looks like the flight will work. Luck helps.




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View attachment 74187
ForeFlight did send me a reply to my question. You were seeing the Regional view on Efis and Conus view on the ipad. Look at the attachment.

Glad you got a reply, and that they have a good shot of the difference!

On the GTN 750, if you have both ConUS and Regional enabled, Garmin puts a 250nm ring around you when you're in the Map view and have FIS-B NEXRAD displayed so it's very clear where you should be seeing the better resolution. Since ForeFlight has the user-configurable range rings, they don't do that to avoid confusion, but if you have both on screen at the same time it should be pretty obvious where the difference is, as you can see in the screen shot.
 
There are four tiers of ADS-B towers, Low, Medium, High, and Surface. Each tier broadcast's Nexrad Regional products, but at different look ahead values (radius around the tower location). Only Medium and High tiers provide the CONUS product. The CONUS product includes all of the lower 48 states and uses a pixel size that is 5 times the size of the regional product or 25 times the area. The look ahead radius for the various tiers of towers for regional Nexrad products is Low - 150 NM, Medium -200 NM, Hight - 250 NM, Surface - 150 NM. What range and what product is displayed is totally dependent on the number of towers being received, the location of those towers, and the tier of the tower being received. So for example, at my airport, KUZA Rock Hill, SC there is a tower located on the field. It is a low tier tower. When on the ground, it is the only tower I can receive and because it is a low tier, I don't receive the CONUS product and the regional product will be a radius of 150 NM. As I climb out, I start to receive additional towers at greater distances. Three are located at the Charlotte airport and are surface, so they don't add much to the available regional products and mostly overlap the tower at KUZA. To the north west, about 35 NM, is a tower located at KEHO (a medium tower) and about 40 NM to the South is a tower at KFDW (a low tier). There is another tower located about 63 NM to the east (a low tier) and an other located about 47 NM to the north (a low tier).

Each one of the towers has regional products out to a range of 150 NM except the one at KEHO, which reaches out 200 NM and includes the CONUS product. So to the West, when receiving the tower at KEHO, I extend the range to about 230 NM. If I am receiving the one to the north, I will receive the regional to about 200 NM, If I am receiving the one to the east, I expect I will receive regional out to about 210 NM. To the south, I expect to receive out to about 190 NM. When receiving all of these towers simultaneously, for the regional products, there will substantial overlap or redundancy. When receiving the KEHO tower I get the CONUS product and it also has substantial overlap with the regional product, but anywhere they overlap, ForeFlight uses the regional data. So what you see is a mosaic of the various towers regional products, but it does not usually extend out much beyond 200 NM unless you are also receiving a high tier tower. According to my data, there are 276 towers of the Low or Surface variety, 240 medium and 129 High.
 
During my last flight I had a chance to compare the ADS-B displays of traffic and Nexrad that appeared on my EFIS and that appeared on ForeFlight.

The EFIS setup included the NAVWORX experimental unit displaying on an experimental GRT HXr EFIS. The installation includes an external belly mounted antenna and the G430w supplies the required certified GPS data.

The iPad running ForeFlight is fed ADS-B data via WIFI from a Sentry unit mounted on a rear window with an internal antenna.

On a flight from Durham NC to Pittsburgh PA, across the Appalachians at 8,000 feet it became clear that both the traffic and Nexrad information displayed on the EFIS was more complete (traffic) and at a higher level of resolution and detail (Nexrad) than the that displayed on the iPad. There were significant differences throughout the flight.

I took a number of photos showing the differences at various points in the flight. I’ll share them in a subsequent post.

This has little impact on the utility of these systems in my flying. I’ve been flying and using the EFIS setup rather intensively for 5 years or so. Though I felt little need to have the same capability on ForeFlight, the price point reached by Sentry made it a no-brainer for backup and ‘strategic’ reference, e.g. it’s much easier to scroll around FF to get the big picture without disturbing the panel displays focused on the weather and traffic directly ahead.


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Seems to be mixed NEXRAD resolutions.

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Use the town of Parsons to compare.


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Use KMGW to compare top to bottom.


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The system with the bottom mounted antenna is likely to do a better job receiving Nexrad regional data than a portable with an internal antenna. You would probably get similar performance if the portable was attached to an external bottom mounted antenna.
 
The system with the bottom mounted antenna is likely to do a better job receiving Nexrad regional data than a portable with an internal antenna. You would probably get similar performance if the portable was attached to an external bottom mounted antenna.
I would tend to agree with you. The units with an internal antenna may be limited a bit in functionality, not just range. That is, I’m thinking it may be partially a bandwidth issue rather than just what antenna’s are in range.

Per the directions, the Sentry can be mounted vertically on a window or on it’s back. Specifically it is not to be ceiling mounted which is where I would have like to have installed it just for convenience’s sake. Now I’m thinking of moving it around the 4 windows to see if I can detect a difference in performance.

But again, this is just a redundant aid in my aircraft. I have built up a certain level of confidence using the the EFIS displayed Nexrad to circumvent storms and buildups. That confidence does not extend to the iPad/FF/Sentry display, at least not at this point.


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Not sure what you are saying here. The first graphic post above shows the ‘data display’ but all that is displayed is minutes since last update or ‘moments ago’. I displayed the towers but didn’t see any information displayed other than location.


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