Self Grounding

[Anon]

I have a question about self grounding, seems to be controversial and I always get different answers.

If someone gets a diagnosis or goes to the ER etc, deals with it and then continues flying. Is it fine just to report on next AME visit? What happens if next AME visit you report then AME says denied or deferred. Does one get in trouble if they honestly thought they were fine and didn’t self ground - Such as if your primary care says your are fine.

I know there are cases where it’s obvious if you are diagnosed with heart disease or take banned meds then that’s an obvious bad decision.

I guess what happened a if someone didn’t self ground then the a year later the AME says well I actually need more tests or something. You just get the tests and you are good? Or do you get in trouble. A lot of people in aviation have very different opinions even the AME seems pretty vague about things. Always a “case by case”. Any personal experiences or stories? I’m always afraid to goto the doctor with fear of then having to self ground indefinitely if something is indeterminate and therefore lose income (commercial pilot here)

Thanks for any input guys.

 

[DaleB]

I’m always afraid to goto the doctor with fear of then having to self ground indefinitely if something is indeterminate and therefore lose income (commercial pilot here)

Thanks for any input guys.

Great way to end up dead when you don't catch an impending heart attack or something. You can always find another career path if you can't fly for hire, but you can't fly anything if you croak. Just a thought.

 

[Anon 22]

If you have a problem then self ground, especially if you are a revenue airman. Fix the problem now and don’t wait. Just do it now.. I waited and wish I hadn’t

 

[AggieMike88]

§61.53 applies to your question. And if you are a commercial pilot or higher, this is something (a) you already know and (b) the Agency is going to expect you to be following it when applicable.

If you have a grounding condition that does need to be reported at next medical (or sooner), then you should start researching what info the Agency will want to know BEFORE you do a live exam with the AME. Searching these forums might provide the answer, or searching the Guide to Aviation Medical Examiners, communicating with your AME in a consultation mode, or reaching out privately to Doctors Bruce and Lou. Both you and your doctor might say you are fine right now, but the Agency may want to know more about why you grounded. How much information depends on what grounded you.

But do not wait until your "live" exam to get surprised that the condition requires a large burden of information.

 

[bflynn]

Regardless of your level, evaluate yourself. If you're not fit to fly then don't. Most of the standard you need to know is available from Google and you should be able to answer it with your doctor's help. If you're in a border line situation, then defer yourself and talk to your AME about how to recertify. If it's not, then report on your next medical.

 

[bbchien]

The good answer depends on the condition. That's part of what I do.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If you have a grounding condition that does need to be reported at next medical (or sooner),

I see this in posts from time to time. Other than 61.15 non-medical reporting of motor vehicle actions, where do you see a requirement to report anything medical sooner than the next medical application? It's not in 61.53.

 

[bflynn]

Well, you only need to immediately report a grounding condition if you want to fly again before your next medical. That’s where an AME consult can help you figure out the borderline cases.

 

[FORANE]

Another thought, in my field (non-flying) disability insurance is optional. If you are concerned, perhaps you may want to look into obtaining (or increasing) disability insurance.

 

[AggieMike88]

I see this in posts from time to time. Other than 61.15 non-medical reporting of motor vehicle actions, where do you see a requirement to report anything medical sooner than the next medical application? It's not in 61.53.

Not in the FAR's, but in my combined rememberences of what Dr. Bruce has said over the years.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Not in the FAR's, but in my combined rememberences of what Dr. Bruce has said over the years.

Without a regulatory or official guidance reference, it's not a requirement. Period. Our obligation is to self-ground, not voluntarily provide ammunition to start the suspended/revoked medical or SI process.

Whether it might be a very wise strategic or tactical move in a specific case based on professional advice is another issue. The problem is that I've seen it referred to as a requirement in a number of posts here and there- the reason I asked the question - so I'm sure there are pilots who, like you, think they must report things to their AME or OK City when they would be better served not waking the sleeping dogs. There is also a huge difference between calling a trusted AME for guidance on self-grounding and reporting to the FAA.

 

[Clip4]

John has chest pains. He goes to emergency, they run tests, observe him for <24 hours and released. He later consults a cardio doc, does a stress test with a good result.

At this point what condition does John have that would indicate he should self ground? He is required to report the visits as diagnostic testing. If he has to report being admitted to hospital depends on the hospital record.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

John has chest pains. He goes to emergency, they run tests, observe him for <24 hours and released. He later consults a cardio doc, does a stress test with a good result.

At this point what condition does John have that would indicate he should self ground? He is required to report the visits as diagnostic testing. If he has to report being admitted to hospital depends on the hospital record.

I think that in a male the FAA is going to want a complete set of records from the stress test and a stress echocardiogram. Not just the report. Those can usually only be obtained for a while off the instrument that did the test. Best to get them right away to your AME.

There are often little gotchas in the FAA aeromedical process. Best to have an experienced AME on the process, especially if a bit older.

 

[Anon]

John has chest pains. He goes to emergency, they run tests, observe him for <24 hours and released. He later consults a cardio doc, does a stress test with a good result.

At this point what condition does John have that would indicate he should self ground? He is required to report the visits as diagnostic testing. If he has to report being admitted to hospital depends on the hospital record.

EXACTLY my point, OP here.

So what happens in this scenario if the airman doesn’t self ground, is fine then goes the the AME for the next medical and is told “the FAA will need A, B, and C as they don’t see it this way” is this airman now in trouble? Or is his medical just deferred and then recertified once he provides the required info. I am close with an AME who had story after story of AIRLINE pilots coming in lying, omitting then get busted by the AME. From what it sounds nothing really happens except deferal or revocation of Medical, NOT the pilot license. As a commercial pilot there are a bunch of co workers out there who swear by answer no no no and none, to all the Med express questions. One pilot said a wrong diagnosis cost him 8 months and 25000 for a lawyer so now insists to just not disclose anything and that’s what he and many others do. Obviously that is unethical and I am not supporting it, just trying to play by the rules while having a game plan should I ever get an “indeterminate” diagnosis. Better to ask for forgiveness than permission? I have no idea.

 

[bbchien]

Your friend might have been foolish. State licensed attorneys can only ask is “proper procedure” followed. In the meantime all the docs stfu.

Your friend either willfully omitted (bad), or didn’t consult a knowledgeable AME (you can’t Reverse a record but you can present “superior” testimony to reverse) which is being cheap and ill_advised, which is worse, or (3) actually has that sort of condition.

You however, know to get good advice, the kind you expect to pay for.....

 

[mryan75]

I have a question about self grounding, seems to be controversial and I always get different answers.

If someone gets a diagnosis or goes to the ER etc, deals with it and then continues flying. Is it fine just to report on next AME visit? What happens if next AME visit you report then AME says denied or deferred. Does one get in trouble if they honestly thought they were fine and didn’t self ground - Such as if your primary care says your are fine.

I know there are cases where it’s obvious if you are diagnosed with heart disease or take banned meds then that’s an obvious bad decision.

I guess what happened a if someone didn’t self ground then the a year later the AME says well I actually need more tests or something. You just get the tests and you are good? Or do you get in trouble. A lot of people in aviation have very different opinions even the AME seems pretty vague about things. Always a “case by case”. Any personal experiences or stories? I’m always afraid to goto the doctor with fear of then having to self ground indefinitely if something is indeterminate and therefore lose income (commercial pilot here)

Thanks for any input guys.

Let's just cut to the chase: what happened and/or what's your diagnosis/prescription?

There are specific answers to specific questions. The way you've worded yours indicates to me that you are looking for plausible deniability for something you know you is disqualifying, but you want to keep flying until your next medical (and again, presumably, you are hoping by that point it is no linger the case, so you don't have to report it).

 

[Palmpilot]

Let's just cut to the chase: what happened and/or what's your diagnosis/prescription?

There are specific answers to specific questions. The way you've worded yours indicates to me that you are looking for plausible deniability for something you know you is disqualifying, but you want to keep flying until your next medical (and again, presumably, you are hoping by that point it is no linger the case, so you don't have to report it).

Re: "looking for plausible deniability," I don't see the point in reading so much into people's posts when they ask questions here. A person doesn't have to have an intention to break the rules in order to want to know what the rules are. And it's not like you or I have any authority to make decisions on the FAA's behalf.