How deep would you let them dig?

Grum.Man

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Grum.Man
Just a hypothetical question. Lots of airplanes hitting the market that have been sitting for very long periods. Old timers that stopped flying but never wanted to sell passing away and families trying to offload them. It's well documented the engine concerns that can come up on a dormant engine. It's just my personal opinion but an airplane that hasn't flown in a year or two without going through preservation process is only worth core value of the parts if that. The only way to determine otherwise is to do a deep dive and inspect the internals which leads me to my question. If you were selling an airplane that has been out of annual for multiple years, would you let a potential buyer pull a cylinder to inspect the engine internals?

If I put my seller cap on my thinking is no way! With my buyer cap on I am going to assume the engine will require overhaul and is only worth $3500 even if it's a low time engine.
 
Sure. I"d let them pull and inspect it, at their expense. What's it going to hurt. You have already assumed the engine is only worth it's core anyway.
 
I would not let them pull cylinders because too much can go wrong, especially the person doing prebuy is not someone I use.

Inspection panels to inspect for corrosion...sure.

I would price the engine as a runout anyway.


Tom
 
Just a hypothetical question. Lots of airplanes hitting the market that have been sitting for very long periods. Old timers that stopped flying but never wanted to sell passing away and families trying to offload them. It's well documented the engine concerns that can come up on a dormant engine. It's just my personal opinion but an airplane that hasn't flown in a year or two without going through preservation process is only worth core value of the parts if that. The only way to determine otherwise is to do a deep dive and inspect the internals which leads me to my question. If you were selling an airplane that has been out of annual for multiple years, would you let a potential buyer pull a cylinder to inspect the engine internals?

If I put my seller cap on my thinking is no way! With my buyer cap on I am going to assume the engine will require overhaul and is only worth $3500 even if it's a low time engine.

Kinda like trying to sell a house with a limitation the inspectors can’t go in basement. Good luck.
 
Just a hypothetical question. Lots of airplanes hitting the market that have been sitting for very long periods. Old timers that stopped flying but never wanted to sell passing away and families trying to offload... ...If you were selling an airplane that has been out of annual for multiple years, would you let a potential buyer pull a cylinder to inspect the engine internals?
You need to more clearly define your hypothetical. Am I the dead one or am I selling an airplane that I do not own for the family of the dead one?

If I'm the dead one I guess I don't much care who looks at anything. If I'm selling the plane for the family of the dead one, I'm going to advise them to price it as a runout or even cheaper. And if its priced that cheap, the deal is take it or leave it, you can start taking the engine apart once you own it and not a minute sooner.
 
I don't think people realize that an old airplane is really only worth what the engine is plus a few grand for the prop and maybe some for avionics if they are modern. Guy has an older Bonanza for sale that hasn't had a documented annual since the late 80's. He thinks he is offering up someone a great deal at 15k as the engine only has 1000 hours smoh. I told him I may be interested if I can open up the engine and inspect it to which he replied no way unless I give him the money for the airplane first.
 
I told him I may be interested if I can open up the engine and inspect it to which he replied no way unless I give him the money for the airplane first.

Define “open up”. Pull a cylinder? Pull a spark plug? Split the case?


Tom
 
I don't think people realize that an old airplane is really only worth what the engine is plus a few grand for the prop and maybe some for avionics if they are modern. Guy has an older Bonanza for sale that hasn't had a documented annual since the late 80's. He thinks he is offering up someone a great deal at 15k as the engine only has 1000 hours smoh. I told him I may be interested if I can open up the engine and inspect it to which he replied no way unless I give him the money for the airplane first.

Actually, that old bonanza is really worth it for the ruddervators alone if they're intact and not corroded. They are gold these days. People are gonna snatch those up for the ruddervators alone to cannibalize them, especially so if they're post G model.
 
IMO, it depends on the market. If its a hot market like now where you go to buy a high performance Cessna and if you say "I want that tire replaced" the seller will say "no" and the next 19 guys in line behind you will buy the plane without question, then no you absolutely may not pull a jug to inspect.

If the plane has sat on the market for 6 months without so much as a nibble, then yeah I can see that being reasonable if the buyer pays the cost.

That being said, on Conti's anyway you can inspect a LOT of the engine without pulling a cylinder. You can see the camshaft with a borescope down the oil filler neck.
 
Actually, that old bonanza is really worth it for the ruddervators alone if they're intact and not corroded. They are gold these days. People are gonna snatch those up for the ruddervators alone to cannibalize them, especially so if they're post G model.

You might could sell them quickly if you budget priced them. There are a lot of ruddervators for sale that aren't moving quickly. For what people are asking for them or any other magnesium control surface you might as well scrap the plane out if it needs control surfaces. You buy the plane for the few desirable parts, then your stuck storing everything until a buyer comes forward. At some point you either have to haul off the rest for scrap or trip over it for years in hopes someone will need and be willing to pay for a fuselage. I've looked at a few twin Bonanza's that needed new control surfaces. Decent used ailerons are bringing 5-6k a piece. Odds are if you need a couple there are other issues that need fixing as well. Quickly it is apparent you are better off adding to the part out fleet, injecting more parts into the inventory and removing another air frame that would have been a consumer.
 
One thing that I will add is that if you do get permission to dig fairly deeply, and do find something major (rusty camshaft or cylinder bores, airframe corrosion, unrepaired damage) send a registered letter to the seller detailing the issues. This is an analog of something that happened to a house I was considering buying. The inspection revealed something rather insidious, expensive, and hidden. The potential buyer sent such a letter to the seller and the realtor, thus preventing anything from being swept under the rug for future buyers.
 
I don't see the big deal about pulling a cylinder. I've done it a few times. I would let someone pull one under supervision.
 
would you let a potential buyer pull a cylinder to inspect the engine internals?
While a straight answer to your hypothetical has too many variables, in general, no on pulling a cylinder. The highest level I have recommended or performed is an annual/100hr level of disassembly. There is too much liability to the mechanic when going beyond that in a pre-buy situation.
 
Person I purchased my plane from bought it from a gentleman who didn’t fly it much for the previous few years.

In the stack of paperwork with the plane was the detailed report of removing a cylinder and inspecting the cam for corrosion. Seller got more money and the buyer was happy. Plane still flys great
 
Would consider it. If the buyer is investing time and money,he must be interested.
 
I went to the used car lot, found a car I was interested in. Backed my truck up, unloaded my tool box, floor jacks, jack stands, etc.

Asked the salesman if it would be OK to "inspect" the car before purchase. Figured I would pull the engine head and check the head gasket, remove the exhaust, check for leaks, etc.

Can't be too careful ya know.
 
Every used car we have bought we have taken to a mechanic separate from the dealership or person selling it and have them inspected prior to us writing a check.
 
What percent of sales include pulling a cylinder?
My guess is <1%.

That would very unusual.

Scoping & compression testing, much more common.
Pulling pushrods & lifters to look there & at cam, maybe - but still not often.

Usually a seller would rather wait it out for a less demanding buyer.

And a buyer should always make his offer based on the thought that any engine could crater, even while taking off from the seller’s airport.
 
I think a detail that maybe is being overlooked by some is shopping for an active airplane versus an innactive one. I wouldn't dig that deep into an airplane that is in annual and being flown regularly. One that has been sitting even a year pulling a cylinder can make or save you 20k in an instant.
 
active airplane versus an innactive one.
Unfortunately, activity, or lack there of, of an aircraft is not a good indicator. I've seen aircraft (airplanes/helicopters) that sat for years that were immaculate and aircraft used on a regular basis that I would not put my foot in. Each aircraft pre-buy is specific to that one aircraft. So pulling a cylinder based solely on the aircraft activity would not be a priority on my list.
 
Could similar info be obtained via bore scope inspection?
 
The problem with letting a potential buyer pull a cylinder is you can't make him reinstall it if he walks from the deal. He could pull the cylinder, get a call from his wife saying she'd just blown their plane fund on a new car, and have him walk away with the cylinder sitting on the floor.
 
I think a detail that maybe is being overlooked by some is shopping for an active airplane versus an innactive one. I wouldn't dig that deep into an airplane that is in annual and being flown regularly. One that has been sitting even a year pulling a cylinder can make or save you 20k in an instant.
Not if the price is already based on a run-out engine.
 
Not if the price is already based on a run-out engine.

I think we all know that rarely happens. People will fly it till the point it’s about due for an overhaul and Put it up for sale because they don’t want to or can’t put 20k+ into it yet don’t want to loose 20k over what they paid for it with a zero time engine.
 
Have any of you actually pulled or replaced a cylinder? It's pretty easy and doesn't take very long at all - at least on Lycosaurus.
 
Have any of you actually pulled or replaced a cylinder? It's pretty easy and doesn't take very long at all - at least on Lycosaurus.
I have. More than once. That said, unless I was selling something rare, I'd wait for another buyer. No way I'd be letting someone pull a cylinder on a O-320 172 just for fun. Sounds like a PITA buyer that would waste my time.

The last 172 I sold, prebuy consisted of the new owner walking around it, taking a peek inside, and then telling me he'd take it. Did not inspect the logs. He never even asked me to start the engine. The airplane was out of annual.

Got a ferry permit issued, done deal, and his ferry pilot flew it home. The price was fair-market for the airframe and engine. It was not priced as a run-out, though it was above TBO. 172s are hot these days.

More than one buyer lost out on the deal because they wanted to know too much information. Just waited until the right buyer came along.
 
The problem with letting a potential buyer pull a cylinder is you can't make him reinstall it if he walks from the deal. He could pull the cylinder, get a call from his wife saying she'd just blown their plane fund on a new car, and have him walk away with the cylinder sitting on the floor.
Well to be fair, I don't think I'd want the buyer pulling the cylinder themselves no matter who they are. If one gets pulled, it gets pulled and reinstalled by a mechanic of my choosing and they pay the bill before the work gets done. My plane, my choice take it or leave it.

They more than welcome to be present and witness the entire procedure. And they will be more than welcome to look at whatever they want once its opened up. But I don't know them from Adam so they're not putting an unsupervised wrench on anything until I no longer own the plane.
 
You might could sell them quickly if you budget priced them. There are a lot of ruddervators for sale that aren't moving quickly. For what people are asking for them or any other magnesium control surface you might as well scrap the plane out if it needs control surfaces. You buy the plane for the few desirable parts, then your stuck storing everything until a buyer comes forward. At some point you either have to haul off the rest for scrap or trip over it for years in hopes someone will need and be willing to pay for a fuselage. I've looked at a few twin Bonanza's that needed new control surfaces. Decent used ailerons are bringing 5-6k a piece. Odds are if you need a couple there are other issues that need fixing as well. Quickly it is apparent you are better off adding to the part out fleet, injecting more parts into the inventory and removing another air frame that would have been a consumer.
I think the case was that you're scrapping it only if you lose. If you buy a pig in a poke, but it actually turns out to be a good bird, you're flying it. if you buy it and the engine starts making metal in 50 hours, then you can probably sell the magnesium for a good portion of $15K I think that's the idea
 
The problem with letting a potential buyer pull a cylinder is you can't make him reinstall it if he walks from the deal. He could pull the cylinder, get a call from his wife saying she'd just blown their plane fund on a new car, and have him walk away with the cylinder sitting on the floor.
couldn't the inspection alone also render the plane unairworthy? I'd be unwilling to let a prospective buyer do disassembly. Borescope everything you want, but no destructive disassembly that has to be logged in the logbooks. our mechanics might disagree on what they see inside the engine and I don't want the plane held hostage at YOUR mechanic.
 
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