How to become an "insurance approved training provider"?

RussR

RussR

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I just finished a one-day insurance-required course of training in a Cessna 421C, with an instructor who does this kind of thing for a living and is approved by the insurer to do so. While the training and materials were adequate and the instructor obviously had tons of knowledge on the twin Cessnas, I could not help thinking, "heck, I could do this". Especially for what the guy charged...

In fact, I have done similar training for lesser aircraft - Comanches, Bonanzas, Saratogas. None of these required a specific "course" or to go to an "insurance-approved" training provider, just a "checkout with an experienced instructor". However, I noticed that for a lot of this type of training I do, my course, materials and syllabus are more thorough than the "insurance-approved" course I just finished.

Now, I don't currently have the experience to teach a "Twin Cessna" course or anything else for that class of airplane or higher. But - someday I will.

So I'm curious how exactly someone gets "insurance-approved" to conduct training in higher-end airplanes. Do you need to submit a syllabus and credentials to the various underwriters? Just make a name for yourself? Just print a fancy certificate and call it good?

I know we have some CFIs like this on this board. Any knowledge or experience you can provide would be great!
 
Knew of one guy who was insurance recognized instructor for a make/model who wasn’t a CFI.
 
There are regs for part 135 operations that let someone (like a chief pilot) do flight training within a company, without a CFI certificate.
 
oh airlines do it too. Cuz they pros bro. Different spanks for different ranks homies.....:D
 
Walboy said:
Why not start with your insurance company and get the information first hand?
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I do plan to contact my insurance agent and ask, but the answer really depends on the client's insurance underwriter, not my CFI policy's agent. Plus I was hoping for some stories of those who have been there, done that.

Also, yesterday was Sunday... :D
 
Brad Z said:
O.K. I'll bite. How can an insurance company recognized instructor not be a flight instructor? How recent is this?
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Insurance companies pretty much drive the industry, not so much the FAA. An instructor needs to be FAA certificates to provide furtherance of a rating or currency, but if it doesn’t involve any of that, an insurance company can set whatever requirements they want on whoever provides that type of training. Typically it would be from a CFI but as far as I know, that isn’t a hard and fast requirement.
 
kath said:
There are regs for part 135 operations that let someone (like a chief pilot) do flight training within a company, without a CFI certificate.
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§61.167(a)(2) specifically allows ATPs to instruct "Other pilots in air transportation service".
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Insurance companies pretty much drive the industry, not so much the FAA. An instructor needs to be FAA certificates to provide furtherance of a rating or currency, but if it doesn’t involve any of that, an insurance company can set whatever requirements they want on whoever provides that type of training. Typically it would be from a CFI but as far as I know, that isn’t a hard and fast requirement.
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I get that. But I'd have a hard time believing that an insurance company's lawyers would be okay with the company directing their customers to receive flight instruction from someone not authorized by the regulatory agency to provide said instruction. I have a hard time believing not a single one of the 100,000 U.S. flight instructors isn't qualified to instruct in an Aerostar.
 
As long as it doesn’t cross any regulatory lines, why would they care? As mentioned above, the airlines do it all the time. While this is admittedly a different scenario, it isn’t THAT much different.
 
Brad Z said:
I get that. But I'd have a hard time believing that an insurance company's lawyers would be okay with the company directing their customers to receive flight instruction from someone not authorized by the regulatory agency to provide said instruction. I have a hard time believing not a single one of the 100,000 U.S. flight instructors isn't qualified to instruct in an Aerostar.
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I did this for a guy when my CFI was not current. There's nothing that says you can't. You just can't log it as Dual given/received, and only one pilot at a time can be logging the time.

A guy bought an AeroSpatiale Alouette 3130 and his insurance required he fly 20 hours with someone who had time in this model. He only found one person and they had no current flight time and had an expired medical. Through networking he finally found me and not only did I have extensive time in the model, but actually in his helicopter.

We sent my paperwork in to his insurance company, explained my cfi was not current and because of my experience and time in that helicopter, they signed off on it. They just said fly with him for 20 hours, they didn't care that my CFI wasn't current.

I was legal to log, as PIC, any time that I was manipulating the controls but that's it. He was able to log as PIC, the time that he was manipulating the controls. There was no dual given and and no dual received.

We had a blast, Lots of mountain work, confined areas in 200' tall trees, long line work, mvfr, etc. Great time.

PJ
 
SToL said:
I did this for a guy when my CFI was not current. There's nothing that says you can't. You just can't log it as Dual given/received, and only one pilot at a time can be logging the time.

A guy bought an AeroSpatiale Alouette 3130 and his insurance required he fly 20 hours with someone who had time in this model. He only found one person and they had no current flight time and had an expired medical. Through networking he finally found me and not only did I have extensive time in the model, but actually in his helicopter.

We sent my paperwork in to his insurance company, explained my cfi was not current and because of my experience and time in that helicopter, they signed off on it. They just said fly with him for 20 hours, they didn't care that my CFI wasn't current.

I was legal to log, as PIC, any time that I was manipulating the controls but that's it. He was able to log as PIC, the time that he was manipulating the controls. There was no dual given and and no dual received.

We had a blast, Lots of mountain work, confined areas in 200' tall trees, long line work, mvfr, etc. Great time.

PJ
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Interesting, thanks. I presume they probably referred to it as something else ("supervisory pilot in command with time in type"?), since your instructor certificate expired.
 
Brad Z said:
I get that. But I'd have a hard time believing that an insurance company's lawyers would be okay with the company directing their customers to receive flight instruction from someone not authorized by the regulatory agency to provide said instruction. I have a hard time believing not a single one of the 100,000 U.S. flight instructors isn't qualified to instruct in an Aerostar.
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How many of the 100k US CFIs have an MEI and how many do you believe meet the bare bones FAA standard of having 5 hours in an AeroStar? There is only about 650 Aerostars flying today and I believe the person was one of the original test pilots for certification of the aircraft.
 
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Interesting hijacks aside, does anybody have experience becoming an "insurance-approved training provider" for various types of more-advanced aircraft?
 
RussR said:
Interesting hijacks aside, does anybody have experience becoming an "insurance-approved training provider" for various types of more-advanced aircraft?
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Wouldn’t all the CSIPs fall into that category.
 
Clip4 said:
How many of the 100k US CFIs have an MEI and how many do you believe meet the bare bones FAA standard of having 5 hours in an AeroStar? There is only about 650 Aerostars flying today and I believe the person was one of the original test pilots for certification of the aircraft.
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The 5 hours is only required if providing instruction for the purposes of seeking a rating. But that said, I have a hard time believing that an insurance company would buy off on being an insurance approved instructor with only that many hours.
 
RussR said:
Interesting hijacks aside, does anybody have experience becoming an "insurance-approved training provider" for various types of more-advanced aircraft?
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I don’t have an answer for you, but I’ve been curious about this as well. I seem to recall a post on this board by a training provider claiming that it wasn’t terribly hard to get approved and the main thing insurance was looking for was a good, structured syllabus. I assume that what is in the syllabus is important but that wasn’t addressed.

I will probably pursue this once I get more time and experience in the type of aircraft I recently went through training for because as far as I know there are no providers within my state.
 
mondtster said:
The 5 hours is only required if providing instruction for the purposes of seeking a rating. But that said, I have a hard time believing that an insurance company would buy off on being an insurance approved instructor with only that many hours.
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Equally I can’t imagine an insurance company extending zero time hull/liability CFI insurance in an Aerostar except they do.
 
I think you guys are making more out of this than it really is... i.e., "Insurance approved training provider", "supervisory pilot in command with time in type".

This is not the FAA, there are no regulations. These are private companies with their own rules (or policies). They can call it whatever they want. Bottom line, what they want is for someone without current (or any) time in an aircraft to fly with someone who has time in that aircraft. This is not a big deal. They can choose if they want that person to be a CFI or not. They can choose if that person needs 10, 25, 50 etc hours.. They can choose to approve or deny you for any reason. All of this has nothing to do with the FAA or regulations.

I once flew for an operator but I had no time in type, the insurance would not approve me. So I sent them a letter detailing all my flying experience, what I did, where it was, weather, terrain etc... they wrote back and said I was approved. As simple as a more detailed personal letter. They can do whatever they want.

I have on several occasions flown with pilots so they can get insurance, I guess that makes me an 'Insurance approved training provider'. Forget about all these 'titles', they mean nothing except to the individual who writes the policy.

PJ
 
SToL said:
I think you guys are making more out of this than it really is... i.e., "Insurance approved training provider", "supervisory pilot in command with time in type".
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Maybe, or maybe not. It depends on the airframe we're talking about.

SToL said:
This is not the FAA, there are no regulations. These are private companies with their own rules (or policies). They can call it whatever they want. Bottom line, what they want is for someone without current (or any) time in an aircraft to fly with someone who has time in that aircraft. This is not a big deal. They can choose if they want that person to be a CFI or not. They can choose if that person needs 10, 25, 50 etc hours.. They can choose to approve or deny you for any reason. All of this has nothing to do with the FAA or regulations.
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Indeed, the insurance companies set their own rules. There are airframes that you will not be insured to fly unless you go through one of the specific initial and recurrent training courses offered by only a handful of providers that cannot be negotiated away. This is what is being discussed here.
 
mondtster said:
The 5 hours is only required if providing instruction for the purposes of seeking a rating. But that said, I have a hard time believing that an insurance company would buy off on being an insurance approved instructor with only that many hours.
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My CFII was a regional airline pilot transitioning through a mid-life career change, and took up instructing to help pay the bills. Had to get 5 hours in my Mooney before instructing. With 8000+ logged non-Mooney hours . . . .
 
SToL said:
I think you guys are making more out of this than it really is... i.e., "Insurance approved training provider", "supervisory pilot in command with time in type".
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I'm not so sure that's true. For a specific example, this 421C training I just went through. A friend of mine was flying this particular airplane, has thousands of multiengine hours including jet time, and around 200 in the 421C, and is an MEI. We asked the insurer if he could just train me up himself, but they would not allow that. Instead, they required me to be trained by one of the numerous "Twin Cessna" training providers that are approved to do this type of training.
 
Hank S said:
My CFII was a regional airline pilot transitioning through a mid-life career change, and took up instructing to help pay the bills. Had to get 5 hours in my Mooney before instructing. With 8000+ logged non-Mooney hours . . . .
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What insurance requires is a separate issue from what the poster I was responding to was referring to. The FARs require 5 hours PIC time in type for multi and helicopter training when giving instruction for the purposes of seeking a certificate.
 
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