Trust ???

pmanton

En-Route
PoA Supporter
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
4,699
Location
Indian Hills Airpark Salome, AZ
Display Name

Display name:
N1431A
This site has people expert in just about everything under the sun.

So perhaps someone can tell me about family trusts. My wife is pestering me to get us a trust.
"A trust avoids probate." " A trust avoids taxes." " Mary and Bill have a trust." Etc, etc.

How would we benefit from a trust? We have a paid for house, another for sale house with a mortgage still on it, a couple of old airplanes, a couple of old cars, and not too much else.
In other words we're not rich by any means. Both of our retirement incomes stop upon death.

We both old enough that we probably would be turned down for a 20 year loan, but haven't started asking for magazine subscriptions by the month yet.

I'd really be grateful to hear some of the pros and cons of family trusts.

Thanks much.

Paul
Salome, AZ
 
A trust does avoid probate but it usually doesn't avoid taxes. However, you can avoid both the trust and probate by using named beneficiary. Sounds like most of your assets can go that route. And in most states, I believe that if both names are on the title then it's just a matter of the surviving spouse presenting a death certificate to gain sole ownership.
 
Trusts legally remove assets from your ownership, so the assets become more protected from people looking to sue you out of your life savings. The newly retired are a little more vulnerable to this because they have the most assets they will ever have in their lives. So, the trust is bit of a liability shield.

Mostly, I think trusts are a fad. You can use them for very specific things, for example, to preserve a family house for use by the senior male heir indefinitely or to provide income for the care of a child. I suspect most people who have them don't really need them.

Or maybe I'm just full of it. It's free advice, we went through trust or not trust discussion when my parents died and decided on not.
 
My wife and I have a trust. But, the law in CA WRT trusts have changed enough that we need to have it rewritten from scratch. So, there's that.
 
How many heirs do you intend to leave to? Trusts can also help prevent heirs from being stupid with what you leave them. Can depend on how many heirs and how smart your heirs are.
 
Trusts avoid probate because you don't own anything, the trust does. There are some ways to structure them so you can minimize inheritance taxes but that only helps if you are wealthy enough to fall into the inheritance tax limit.

If you have minor kids, or immature adult kids, trusts can be set up to leave them with a little at a time so they don't run through it all too quickly.

They really don't offer too much in the form of asset protection, though. While you are still alive you can be sued for whatever amount of damages the other side is seeking and if you lose, you still have to pay up.

The biggest thing about setting up a family trust is that it also includes a will to cover all the details not covered by a trust. This pretty much means you are "getting your ducks in a row" while you are still able, and that's a big benefit to your next of kin. Anyone that's had to deal with a parent that didn't do any estate planning, or even have a will, can tell you how much fun that can be.
 
This site has people expert in just about everything under the sun.

So perhaps someone can tell me about family trusts. My wife is pestering me to get us a trust.
"A trust avoids probate." " A trust avoids taxes." " Mary and Bill have a trust." Etc, etc.

How would we benefit from a trust? We have a paid for house, another for sale house with a mortgage still on it, a couple of old airplanes, a couple of old cars, and not too much else.
In other words we're not rich by any means. Both of our retirement incomes stop upon death.

We both old enough that we probably would be turned down for a 20 year loan, but haven't started asking for magazine subscriptions by the month yet.

I'd really be grateful to hear some of the pros and cons of family trusts.

Thanks much.

Paul
Salome, AZ

We have one. Primary reason was to transfer Real Estate non judicially, i. e. outside of probate. Do it yourself probates can be done. Many States have made it much easier and there are publications like the Nolo Press that tell you how to do it. I believe that enough business was lost by Estate Lawyers as roll your own probates became easier that they began to promote Family Trusts as a way to replace their lost income from Probates with income from establishing Family Trusts. There are many more ways to transfer Titled and Deeded property out side of Probate than there were many years ago. Some States have Transfer on Death automobile Titles. All the beneficiary needs is a Death Certificate to take to the DMV. Real Estate held as Husband and Wife (as common property in some States) with Right of Survivorship avoids Probate. Cash instruments such as Checking/Savings is very easily done by naming Beneficiaries. Once again the Beneficiary need only produce a Death Certificate to the Bank. One thing to know about that is 'Beneficiary' on accounts trumps Wills and Trusts. You can say in your Will/Trust that Dick gets everything I have, but if Jane is the Beneficiary on your accounts, they go to Jane. Dick then gets what's left. That's what I think I know, it probably just scratches the surface
 
One reason to use a trust to avoid probate is that in many states (such as mine) all probate court records are public.
 
My parents set up a family trust with my sister and brother as co-trustees.

After both of them died, we were able to liquidate all property and there was no probate or tax complications. In fact, because of the debts incurred for upkeep and funeral expenses, we were able to show a net loss on the family estate for tax purposes...
 
If you have someone who is potentially hostile to what you've put in your will, and that person may have some legal standing, you may need a trust so that your desired beneficiaries get what you intended for them. If you don't have such a person, you probably don't need one. For example, I'm married, have only been married once, and I have two daughters. Our will states that if I die first, my wife gets everything, if she dies first, I get everything, if we both die at the same time, a trust managed by my brother in law will be set up for the benefit of our children. If all four of us die at the same time, then my brother in law and my sister get equal shares.

There's really no one who could make a valid claim that they should be placed ahead of any of those mentioned in the will, so we don't need a trust. On the other hand, if I was trying to extricate myself from a bad marriage, it would behoove me to set up a trust so that my assets would go to my daughters instead of my estranged wife. The law in many states provides a spouse with a forced share which can be substantial.

If you're trying to disown a spouse or a child, you need a trust. If you're one of those disreputable sorts that has a number of illegitimate children and doesn't want your estate tied up while your various children squabble over it, you need a trust. Most of the rest of us don't.
 
Transfer on death beneficiary accounts and deeds if your state allows. Bypasses probate.
 
The purpose of a trust is in the name. If you do not trust your heirs to do what you want with your assets when you are gone then you need a trust. The most common reason is having children late in life that you don't want to have a bundle when they turn 18 (something about hookers and blow). Also, if you have multiple marriages and children form them you need to figure out how much goes to the ex's. In most states if you kick off the new wife gets it all.
 
It can get around some of the estate tax limits for subsequent generations if done properly.

The "purpose" doesn't need to be in the title. My trust just has my name on it.
 
It can get around some of the estate tax limits for subsequent generations if done properly.

Those limits are $11.4 million for individuals and $22.8 million for married couples. I can only think of 4 POA'ers offhand that might possibly exceed those limits.

I'll let someone else name names... :D
 
One thing a trust will let you do is control where your money ultimately goes and for what purpose it is used.

For instance, let's say you have a child who has a douchebag spouse. Your child has 2 kids and the douchebag brings 2 kids to the marriage.

You could set up a trust such that your child gets income/benefits from the trust, but when your child passes, the remaining part of the trust goes to your biological grandchildren, rather than being inherited by the douchebag to use or distribute as s/he sees fit.
 
You really ought to spend a few bucks and talk with an estate planning attorney where you live. I work as a volunteer attorney in a law school sponsored legal clinic and we see the train wrecks of living trusts in the Elder Law Clinic. Some attorneys sell these like tacos off a taco truck, and folks think they are saving a lot money by avoiding probate. For the average Jill or Joe, that is not the case.

To begin with, there are all kinds of trusts - living trusts, testamentary trusts, poor-over trusts, support and maintenance trusts, spendthrift trusts, etc. and one size does not fit all. And it largely depends on where you live (community property state, separate property state or a hybrid state) your martial status (including a former spouse who for example may have pension rights), children/stepchildren, where you die, what property you acquired (where and with what funds) and the the estimated value of your assets for both state inheritance tax purposes and federal estate tax purposes. So what might work in one situation may not work in yours.

Living trusts are quite fashionable these days. Attorneys sell them so you can avoid “costly” probate and save all of that money and time. Problem is, for a lot of folks they are unnecessary and maybe even dangerous since they require maintenance and they do a very poor job of estate tax planning in some cases. And I won’t even comment on the do it yourself kits.

As a general rule, if you use a living trust (and maintain it) then you can avoid a probate. But that may not be as significant of a benefit as you might think. For example assume you have two major assets: you own a house with you spouse as joint tenants with right of survivorship (and you live in a non community property state) and you have a 401k and have named your spouse as your first beneficiary. If you were to die, the house is her’s/his’as is the 401k. No probate required. Same for banking account if jointly owned, pension benefits (if you are lucky enough to have one and elected a survivor benefit), life insurance etc. In fact, most folks have most of their assets set up in a fashion that already avoids probate. Further, some assets can’t be transferred into a trust. These include pensions, 401k/403b’s etc. You can use a pour-over trust for life insurance benefits but those generally require professional management by a trustee and not your brother in law.

And since we are talking a aviation here, try to get the FAA to register your airplane as the “BillyBob Family Trust” so the trust can be considered the legal owner of the aircraft. I think you may have more than a few questions about that.

However, living trusts may address a simultaneous death that takes you and your spouse if both of you have transferred your assets into the trust, to the extent you can. In my example above, only the house would be affected by a simultaneous death. The other assets would transfer by beneficiary designation with the bank account being the primary exception. Some people think a living trust can help them exercise “dead hand control” from the grave. Generally, the out of the box ones that many attorneys sell can’t but if you have one set up that will provided you find a trustee that is qualified to be a trustee under state law. Finally, like everything else, trusts can be attacked legally. For example, if there was a child born outside of the marriage and not provided for in the trust, she/he would be able to challenge the trust and likely get a share. With a will, you can specially disinherit a child and that normally withstands a legal challenge.

In summary, you need to begin by making a list of your assets, your spouse’s assets,how they are owned and whether they can be passed by a beneficiary designation and how you want your assets to be divided on your death. Take that list to a competent estate planning attorney and get his or her advice. You might be surprised to find out you may not have enough assets that will pass by probate to be concerned. If you live in a community property state, it’s even easier.

Life is complicated these days with multiple marriages, stepchildren, natural born children of the marriage and outside of the marriage, and all kinds other situations. You need to spend the money to get it right - there is no “do-over”.
 
I saw the title, and my mind jumped right to NFA trust. Never mind, nothing to see here.
 
If you have someone who is potentially hostile to what you've put in your will, and that person may have some legal standing, you may need a trust so that your desired beneficiaries get what you intended for them. If you don't have such a person, you probably don't need one. For example, I'm married, have only been married once, and I have two daughters. Our will states that if I die first, my wife gets everything, if she dies first, I get everything, if we both die at the same time, a trust managed by my brother in law will be set up for the benefit of our children. If all four of us die at the same time, then my brother in law and my sister get equal shares.

There's really no one who could make a valid claim that they should be placed ahead of any of those mentioned in the will, so we don't need a trust. On the other hand, if I was trying to extricate myself from a bad marriage, it would behoove me to set up a trust so that my assets would go to my daughters instead of my estranged wife. The law in many states provides a spouse with a forced share which can be substantial.

If you're trying to disown a spouse or a child, you need a trust. If you're one of those disreputable sorts that has a number of illegitimate children and doesn't want your estate tied up while your various children squabble over it, you need a trust. Most of the rest of us don't.

Do you think a hostile heir would not be able to sue the trust ?

The only way to deal with a hostile potential heir is to transfer actual ownership to those you want to give it to while you are still alive. Even then, there are plenty of stories of suits for 'undue influence' where the person who was cut out claims that whatever transfers you made were not done by your own free will. Not an issue if you are youngish and go to the closing yourself. More likely if you are disabled and the kid who takes care of you shows up with all the paperwork signed to initiate a real estate transfer (aunt Lisa takes care of Gramps. Gramps dies and Uncle Bob who has been farming Gramps land for the past ten years finds out that Gramps 'gave' Lisa the farm two years earlier. Turns out all the paperwork was done by a lawyer that Aunt Lisa paid and who came to the house to have Gramps who at that point was blind and deaf sign the paperwork)
 
Last edited:
And since we are talking a aviation here, try to get the FAA to register your airplane as the “BillyBob Family Trust” so the trust can be considered the legal owner of the aircraft. I think you may have more than a few questions about that.

Plenty of aircraft owned by trusts. But the FAA has requirements on how a trust has to be set up for them to accept it as an owner. It mostly revolves around questions of foreign control of the asset and how they can get hold of a neck to strangle if ''the plane' does something stupid.
If all those requirements are met by the trust documents you submit, the FAA will register to a family trust and I have seen that ownership in aircraft listed for sale.
 
Only trust I have right now is for my NFA firearms. Allows me to pass them down to my kids without them having to pay for a tax stamp.
 
If speak with someone about Your particular situation to see if it makes sense. They can do many things, but may not be necessary.
 
Thanks a million all for a wealth of information.

One thing to guard against is over-complicating a trust or will. Not to pick on lawyers, but it is easy for a lawyer to write in all sorts of stuff at the client's request that causes far more headaches than they eliminate downstream. This is where a good (i.e. practical and interested in his customer's needs rather than a future income stream) lawyer comes in. I'm the executor of my grandfather's estate and the 4 (!) trusts that were created from it. The structure of that document drove tens of thousands in accounting and legal fees that should have been avoidable.
 
I have a will, but looking into a trust.

Interestingly, here (in GA) it is common for a will to include provisions for creating a trust. Local banks understand the convention. Big national banks really struggle with it in that they want two different documents on file when you go to create estate and then, trust accounts.
 
Interestingly, here (in GA) it is common for a will to include provisions for creating a trust. Local banks understand the convention. Big national banks really struggle with it in that they want two different documents on file when you go to create estate and then, trust accounts.
I can't account for differences in bank documentation preferences, but one potential issue is that if it's the will which creates the trust, there is no probate avoidance.
 
You really ought to spend a few bucks and talk with an estate planning attorney where you live. I work as a volunteer attorney in a law school sponsored legal clinic and we see the train wrecks of living trusts in the Elder Law Clinic. Some attorneys sell these like tacos off a taco truck, and folks think they are saving a lot money by avoiding probate. For the average Jill or Joe, that is not the case.

To begin with, there are all kinds of trusts - living trusts, testamentary trusts, poor-over trusts, support and maintenance trusts, spendthrift trusts, etc. and one size does not fit all. And it largely depends on where you live (community property state, separate property state or a hybrid state) your martial status (including a former spouse who for example may have pension rights), children/stepchildren, where you die, what property you acquired (where and with what funds) and the the estimated value of your assets for both state inheritance tax purposes and federal estate tax purposes. So what might work in one situation may not work in yours.

Living trusts are quite fashionable these days. Attorneys sell them so you can avoid “costly” probate and save all of that money and time. Problem is, for a lot of folks they are unnecessary and maybe even dangerous since they require maintenance and they do a very poor job of estate tax planning in some cases. And I won’t even comment on the do it yourself kits.

As a general rule, if you use a living trust (and maintain it) then you can avoid a probate. But that may not be as significant of a benefit as you might think. For example assume you have two major assets: you own a house with you spouse as joint tenants with right of survivorship (and you live in a non community property state) and you have a 401k and have named your spouse as your first beneficiary. If you were to die, the house is her’s/his’as is the 401k. No probate required. Same for banking account if jointly owned, pension benefits (if you are lucky enough to have one and elected a survivor benefit), life insurance etc. In fact, most folks have most of their assets set up in a fashion that already avoids probate. Further, some assets can’t be transferred into a trust. These include pensions, 401k/403b’s etc. You can use a pour-over trust for life insurance benefits but those generally require professional management by a trustee and not your brother in law.

And since we are talking a aviation here, try to get the FAA to register your airplane as the “BillyBob Family Trust” so the trust can be considered the legal owner of the aircraft. I think you may have more than a few questions about that.

However, living trusts may address a simultaneous death that takes you and your spouse if both of you have transferred your assets into the trust, to the extent you can. In my example above, only the house would be affected by a simultaneous death. The other assets would transfer by beneficiary designation with the bank account being the primary exception. Some people think a living trust can help them exercise “dead hand control” from the grave. Generally, the out of the box ones that many attorneys sell can’t but if you have one set up that will provided you find a trustee that is qualified to be a trustee under state law. Finally, like everything else, trusts can be attacked legally. For example, if there was a child born outside of the marriage and not provided for in the trust, she/he would be able to challenge the trust and likely get a share. With a will, you can specially disinherit a child and that normally withstands a legal challenge.

In summary, you need to begin by making a list of your assets, your spouse’s assets,how they are owned and whether they can be passed by a beneficiary designation and how you want your assets to be divided on your death. Take that list to a competent estate planning attorney and get his or her advice. You might be surprised to find out you may not have enough assets that will pass by probate to be concerned. If you live in a community property state, it’s even easier.

Life is complicated these days with multiple marriages, stepchildren, natural born children of the marriage and outside of the marriage, and all kinds other situations. You need to spend the money to get it right - there is no “do-over”.
Good solid post except for the comment about registering an aircraft. It's as easy to register an aircraft owned by a domestic (US) trust as as an LLC.

The problem area from a registration standpoint is the requirement for filing a "complete and true copy of the instrument creating the trust." That's something some folks are unwilling to do if there is a single trust document covering multiple assets and multiple beneficiaries since it may be inconsistent with the settlor/trustor's desire for privacy of her distributive intent. A statutorily-authorized substitute such as a "certification of trust" should solve that problem.
 
I can't account for differences in bank documentation preferences, but one potential issue is that if it's the will which creates the trust, there is no probate avoidance.

Question - Why is probate avoidance a concern? I've probated 3 wills and found it to be relatively painless other than having to spend an hour or so at the courthouse.
 
Question - Why is probate avoidance a concern? I've probated 3 wills and found it to be relatively painless other than having to spend an hour or so at the courthouse.
Its a concern for some and not for others. In a simple, accelerated, probate available in many states, it's an hour at the courthouse. In others, it's a minimum statutory period of about a year, give or take, of formal procedures including appointment of an executor or administrator, periodic accountings, and multiple notification, even in an uncontested estate. Those can be minimized or eliminated with a living trust. There may also be privacy concerns (which in itself a good reason for separate will and trust documents).

Real point is each person's situation is different. And so is the associated estate planning advice and devices used.
 
Question - Why is probate avoidance a concern? I've probated 3 wills and found it to be relatively painless other than having to spend an hour or so at the courthouse.

Lucky you. In many jurisdictions it's an ordeal even for rather straightforward estates.
 
My estate planning atty says the first two questions he gets after someone dies are, "How much? and When?"

He prefers that whoever you have named in any of your documents be kept aware of your plans. It can avoid a lot of drama later.
 
He prefers that whoever you have named in any of your documents be kept aware of your plans. It can avoid a lot of drama later.

Sadly a good number of people already have those numbers in their head and make financial decisions based on those expected numbers and timelines (great consternation ensues if gramps alma mater or church see a bigger chunk of the loot than the one who had made plans for it anticipated).
 
Sadly a good number of people already have those numbers in their head and make financial decisions based on those expected numbers and timelines (great consternation ensues if gramps alma mater or church see a bigger chunk of the loot than the one who had made plans for it anticipated).
Since he's a trust guy, I think his main concern is with successor trustees. When you name someone as a successor, at least let them know about the arrangements. What the responsibilities are, who to contact, how it is supposed to work, and how. It doesn't have to be too detailed.
 
My estate planning atty says the first two questions he gets after someone dies are, "How much? and When?"

Other than "How much of that do you get?", what else would there be to ask him?
 
Since he's a trust guy, I think his main concern is with successor trustees. When you name someone as a successor, at least let them know about the arrangements. What the responsibilities are, who to contact, how it is supposed to work, and how. It doesn't have to be too detailed.

Ah, I thought the suggestion was to keep the beneficiaries appraised of what they have coming to them. Yes, of course anyone expected to do work should know what he has to expect.
 
Back
Top