Possession reduced to misconduct

J

Jiapath

Guest
If not arrested and ticket was reduced to misconduct will my son be able to Pass his third grade medical exam and get his commercial pilots license. Supposed to start Delta flight program in middle Georgia in the fall. I just don’t want him in his third year taking his third grade medical exam and they disqualify him it is very expensive do you have any suggestions for me?
 
talk with his AME - it likely has to be reported. Start early!
 
The FAA is not going to be as dismissive of a drug charge as the court. He is able to get a medical, but it won’t be instant and may involve a lot of expense.
 
Jiapath said:
If not arrested and ticket was reduced to misconduct will my son be able to Pass his third grade medical exam and get his commercial pilots license. Supposed to start Delta flight program in middle Georgia in the fall. I just don’t want him in his third year taking his third grade medical exam and they disqualify him it is very expensive do you have any suggestions for me?
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I really don't like to judge stupid things young people do, considering some of the stupid things I have been known to do when I was younger (like 60ish or less), but why in the world would someone with aspirations of entering the Delta flight program put himself in such a situation?

I'm curious, who actually reduced the ticket, and when? Was it originally written as "posession" or did the cop originally write it out as the lesser offense?
 
If not arrested and ticket was reduced to misconduct. Misconduct is not a drug offense. May not have to be reported.
Check with aeromedicaldoc@comcast.net, Dr Chien will know exactly what the FAA needs and doesn't need to know.
 
6t6 said:
If not arrested and ticket was reduced to misconduct. Misconduct is not a drug offense. May not have to be reported.
Check with aeromedicaldoc@comcast.net, Dr Chien will know exactly what the FAA needs and doesn't need to know.
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Misconduct is a reportable offense as a non-traffic misdemeanor. The AME will need to know the details.
 
I don't see the need to share this. It's not a conviction for an alcohol or drug offense.
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The FAA asks about non-traffic convictions in 18w. There's no exemption for it not being drug-related.

Further, he needs to frankly answer the question in 18n.
 
Jiapath said:
I just don’t want him in his third year taking his third grade medical exam and they disqualify him it is very expensive do you have any suggestions for me?
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Anyone considering getting a professional aviation education should go and get a 1st class medical. This should be the very first thing they do. It should happen before they fill out even the first application for school. There is not much point in spending a dime on collegiate level flight training if you can't get a 1st class medical.
 
6t6 said:
I don't see the need to share this. It's not a conviction for an alcohol or drug offense. Nothing has been revoke or denied. And should I get a ticket for littering or jay walking I won't report that either.

One is required to sign a release for driving record to comply with the requirements for FAA Form 8500-8. But that does not give the FAA the right to do a complete background check without permission.
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Non-traffic felony and misdemeanor convictions is a field on both the FAA medical and basic med application.
 
Clip4 said:
Non-traffic felony and misdemeanor convictions is a field on both the FAA medical and basic med application.
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I haven't slept in a Holiday Inn Express in years, so tell me; can one be convicted if they are never arrested? Is paying a ticket the same as being convicted for a misdemeanor?
 
JOhnH said:
I haven't slept in a Holiday Inn Express in years, so tell me; can one be convicted if they are never arrested? Is paying a ticket the same as being convicted for a misdemeanor?
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Yes, a citation is a court summons in lieu of arrest. If the court has a fine schedule posted for the offense, you do not have to appear in court and may plead guilty and pay the fine. A record of the offense and your conviction becomes part of the court record that is maintained for 50 years in most states.

In some states paying a minor misdemeanor fine for marijuana possession results in a short automatic drivers license suspension (30 days) which the FAA will see during a check of the driving record as a drug abuse suspension.
 
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Clip4 said:
Yes, a citation is a court summons in lieu of arrest. If the court has a fine schedule posted for the offense, you do not have to appear in court and may plead guilty and pay the fine. A record of the offense and your conviction becomes part of the court record that is maintained for 50 years in most states.
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Thanks. I have wondered about that before.
 
Item 18w will be "yes".

This is not about beating the rap or not. It is about recorded public alcohol associated behavior and the medical evaluation thereof. He is going to need at least:
Personal statement.
10 year Certified DMV search
Criminal background search.
Evaluation by a Certified Alcohol and Drug counselor along DSM 4 lines (not DSM 5).
The arrest description by the arresting officer...

...for this FAA evaluation to take place. Without a BAC, no AME can issue this.
...sooo much easier to not have record, than to try to correct a record :( :(.

Now consider the ramifications of hiding the ball and subsequent discovery: Loss of all pilot certificates in addition to the medical. The best advice is: Get this vetted. Falsification of the record is not where you want to be.

Just google "4 delta captains indicted...."
 
bbchien said:
This is not about beating the rap or not. It is about recorded public alcohol associated behavior and the medical evaluation thereof. He is going to need at least:
Personal statement.
10 year Certified DMV search
Criminal background search.
Evaluation by a Certified Alcohol and Drug counselor along DSM 4 lines (not DSM 5).
The arrest description by the arresting officer...

...for this FAA evaluation to take place. Without a BAC, no AME can issue this.
...sooo much easier to not have record, than to try to correct a record :( :(.
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I don't know how much difference it makes, but I couldn't tell what the "possession" was? Alcohol? Drugs (heroin, MJ), something else?
 
JOhnH said:
I haven't slept in a Holiday Inn Express in years, so tell me; can one be convicted if they are never arrested? Is paying a ticket the same as being convicted for a misdemeanor?
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Conviction does not require an arrest. Not everyone charged with a criminal offense gets arrested.

Paying a ticket (whatever that means) may or might not be a conviction. No one here knows the answer to that based in the information provided.
 
What I don't get is where the FAA thinks they can use an arrest to trigger all this other BS..... If it was dismissed or found not guilty, there is no legal standing for the FAA to use the data in an action against him. The Constitution was crafted for this very type of governmental encroachment.

Tell me, where is the legal standing for the FAA to use past accusations found not guilty or unsubstantiated against someone in a medical action? Has it been challenged by the Supreme court yet? To me it runs afoul of the 6th and perhaps the 7th Amendments at minimum. Guilty even if proven innocent seems to be the FAAs position. What gives them the right to cut across the grain of our legal protections?
 
It depends on who wrote the ticket, where and for what charge.

If the charge is a misdemeanor, then he can pay and admit to it or try to fight it in court...but he would have to have some kind of defense and it would take time.

If the charge is a civil citation, then it is not reportable.
 
Unit74 said:
What I don't get is where the FAA thinks they can use an arrest to trigger all this other BS..... If it was dismissed or found not guilty, there is no legal standing for the FAA to use the data in an action against him. The Constitution was crafted for this very type of governmental encroachment.

Tell me, where is the legal standing for the FAA to use past accusations found not guilty or unsubstantiated against someone in a medical action? Has it been challenged by the Supreme court yet? To me it runs afoul of the 6th and perhaps the 7th Amendments at minimum. Guilty even if proven innocent seems to be the FAAs position. What gives them the right to cut across the grain of our legal protections?
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Gov agencies! you think the FAA is imperial? HHS is the agency that controls medicine and doctors and it is twice as bad. We have let our elected congress to cede large swaths of America to these many agencies.
 
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Unit74 said:
What I don't get is where the FAA thinks they can use an arrest to trigger all this other BS..... If it was dismissed or found not guilty, there is no legal standing for the FAA to use the data in an action against him. The Constitution was crafted for this very type of governmental encroachment.

Tell me, where is the legal standing for the FAA to use past accusations found not guilty or unsubstantiated against someone in a medical action? Has it been challenged by the Supreme court yet? To me it runs afoul of the 6th and perhaps the 7th Amendments at minimum. Guilty even if proven innocent seems to be the FAAs position. What gives them the right to cut across the grain of our legal protections?
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Regulation

The blanket end run around that pesky constitution
 
lbfjrmd said:
Gov agencies! you think the FAA is imperial? HHS is the agency that controls medicine and doctors and it is twice as bad. We has let our elected congress to cede large swaths of America to these many agencies.
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The hearing before the Supreme Court on 4/23 regarding the Census question has important ramifications with regards to the ability of the unelected bureaucracy to dictate what policy decisions the elected executive and his appointees (in this case the Commerce Secretary) may or may not make.

Career staff at the Commerce Department testified in a lower court they told the Secretary his planned change to the Census would, in their opinion, create certain problems that would affect the Census. The lower court found their concerns to be material and valid, and ruled the Secretary could not make the changes.

The government contends consideration of these opinions unconstitutionally interfered with the lawful actions of the executive and violated the separation of powers.

Thus, the decision by the Supreme Court will answer an important challenge to the limits of the bureaucracy in these matters.

Please be grownups and recognize I have posted about a question of constitutionality before the Supreme Court, and NOT about politics.
 
Unit74 said:
What I don't get is where the FAA thinks they can use an arrest to trigger all this other BS..... If it was dismissed or found not guilty, there is no legal standing for the FAA to use the data in an action against him. The Constitution was crafted for this very type of governmental encroachment.

Tell me, where is the legal standing for the FAA to use past accusations found not guilty or unsubstantiated against someone in a medical action? Has it been challenged by the Supreme court yet? To me it runs afoul of the 6th and perhaps the 7th Amendments at minimum. Guilty even if proven innocent seems to be the FAAs position. What gives them the right to cut across the grain of our legal protections?
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People are not "proven innocent" in a criminal case. At best, a criminal trial decides there was not proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Pre-trial deals and dismissals don't even give that much.

The facts underlying a charge are often the basis for non-criminal action, even if the charges are dismissed or reduced or the accused is found not guilty after a month-long trial. Come to think of it, a not guilty doesn't even alway prevent a later criminal prosecution for the same event.

It's nothing new and it's not limited to government agencies.
 
midlifeflyer said:
People are not "proven innocent" in a criminal case.....

The facts underlying a charge are often the basis for non-criminal action, even if the charges are dismissed or reduced or the accused is found not guilty after a month-long trial. Come to think of it, a not guilty doesn't even alway prevent a later criminal prosecution for the same event.
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Not arguing that.... My position is that if the law of the land has ruled you are not guilty, what rule has the authority to continue governmental action that sanctions you for the same accusation you were found not guilty on? And I do think you are wrong the that last part. You cannot be found not guilty on a charge, then retried for the same crime. OJ killed his wife, found not guilty , then basically wrote a manifesto on it and there was nothing he courts could do about it. That IS the law.
 
Unit74 said:
Not arguing that.... My position is that if the law of the land has ruled you are not guilty, what rule has the authority to continue governmental action that sanctions you for the same accusation you were found not guilty on? And I do think you are wrong the that last part. You cannot be found not guilty on a charge, then retried for the same crime. OJ killed his wife, found not guilty , then basically wrote a manifesto on it and there was nothing he courts could do about it. That IS the law.
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First, the family successfully sued OJ for wrongful death and the courts are definite empowered to get at his assets (whether they can in reality due to legal wrangling and asset protection strategies is a different story).

Then for government action, a good example is the number of highly publicized cases involving police charged with assault by one government, found not guilty, then prosecuted for criminal civil rights violations by another. Same conduct but different offense and government entity.

Double jeopardy is subject to a few interesting exceptions and is not a absolute as many laypersons think.
 
3393RP said:
The hearing before the Supreme Court on 4/23 regarding the Census question has important ramifications with regards to the ability of the unelected bureaucracy to dictate what policy decisions the elected executive and his appointees (in this case the Commerce Secretary) may or may not make.

Career staff at the Commerce Department testified in a lower court they told the Secretary his planned change to the Census would, in their opinion, create certain problems that would affect the Census. The lower court found their concerns to be material and valid, and ruled the Secretary could not make the changes.

The government contends consideration of these opinions unconstitutionally interfered with the lawful actions of the executive and violated the separation of powers.

Thus, the decision by the Supreme Court will answer an important challenge to the limits of the bureaucracy in these matters.

Please be grownups and recognize I have posted about a question of constitutionality before the Supreme Court, and NOT about politics.
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Technically, both the appointed agency executive and the staff are unelected, therefore both are part of the bureaucracy. Hence IMHO the case is pitting the bureaucracy against the bureaucracy. Some would call the staff "deep state" and others might talk about whether the inmates are running the asylum, but in the end... it's a matter of whether the staff judgement or the SES judgement rules.

Had either Congress or the President (personally) made the decision, then yes, it would be policy decisions by the elected executive.

Not sure how "separation of powers" enters into this - both the agency head and the staff are part of the executive branch. The court is doing what courts are supposed to do and interperting whether this is permitted or not.
 
Unit74 said:
What I don't get is where the FAA thinks they can use an arrest to trigger all this other BS..... If it was dismissed or found not guilty, there is no legal standing for the FAA to use the data in an action against him. The Constitution was crafted for this very type of governmental encroachment.

Tell me, where is the legal standing for the FAA to use past accusations found not guilty or unsubstantiated against someone in a medical action? Has it been challenged by the Supreme court yet? To me it runs afoul of the 6th and perhaps the 7th Amendments at minimum. Guilty even if proven innocent seems to be the FAAs position. What gives them the right to cut across the grain of our legal protections?
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You don't have a right to a medical nor a pilot certificate. End of story. You want to play, you play by their rules.
 
B
mryan75 said:
You don't have a right to a medical nor a pilot certificate. End of story. You want to play, you play by their rules.
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do you have a right to free movement?
How much restriction can government put on us regarding how we travel before it becomes to restrictive and infringes ??

All interesting topics to be discussed somewhere else
 
Tarheelpilot said:
B

do you have a right to free movement?
How much restriction can government put on us regarding how we travel before it becomes to restrictive and infringes ??

All interesting topics to be discussed somewhere else
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Here we go with the "I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express" legal theories. You do not have a right to a pilot certificate nor a medical certificate nor to operate an aircraft in the NAS. Period.

And there are perfectly good reasons for asking the questions that they do. Let's say you got arrested for trying to smuggle 8 tons of heroin into the country and your lawyer gets it tossed on a technicality. I think the FAA should have access to the arrest information to determine your fitness for certification.
 
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mryan75 said:
Here we go with the "I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express" legal theories. You do not have a right to a pilot certificate nor a medical certificate nor to operate an aircraft in the NAS. Period.

And there are perfectly good reasons for asking the questions that they do. Let's say you got arrested for trying to smuggle 8 tons of heroin into the country and your lawyer gets it tossed on a technicality. I think the FAA should have access to the arrest information to determine your fitness for certification.
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The semantics are not relevant. If you were found not guilty, to continue persecution for a crime you have been absolved of is the issue. The encroachment well into facts that are now irrelevant is the problem here.

I ask again..... what gives the FAA the right to use legally resolved facts against a person when the judicial system has already made final judgement? The guilty until proven innocent is not what the constitution represents. The FAA fails to think that way in it’s rule making.
 
mryan75 said:
You don't have a right to a medical nor a pilot certificate. End of story. You want to play, you play by their rules.
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I think you have forgotten that the government is for the people, by the people. We some how have been led to believe that they are in control, not the people anymore. The FAA is always walking rough-shot over the people. Imagine if car drivers faced the same level of insanity pilots did. Pitchforks and sticks would soon follow. We are simply not a big enough or loud enough lobby to do anything about it.
 
Unit74 said:
I think you have forgotten that the government is for the people, by the people. We some how have been led to believe that they are in control, not the people anymore. The FAA is always walking rough-shot over the people. Imagine if car drivers faced the same level of insanity pilots did. Pitchforks and sticks would soon follow. We are simply not a big enough or loud enough lobby to do anything about it.
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DUI checkpoints....
 
Unit74 said:
I ask again..... what gives the FAA the right to use legally resolved facts against a person when the judicial system has already made final judgement?
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I'm going to guess the same thing that gives me or you or anyone else the right to use legally resolved facts against a person. I do background checks when I hire people. I also check other sources for information on their past. If I discover they were arrested but not convicted for DUI, I'm still going to factor their DUI history into my hiring decision. If I don't hire them because of it, I am not denying them their liberty or restricting any of their freedoms.

Flying is a privilege not a right. If the FAA decides not to grant you a medical for any reason, they are not denying any of your liberties nor restricting any of your freedoms.
 
mryan75 said:
Here we go with the "I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express" legal theories. You do not have a right to a pilot certificate nor a medical certificate nor to operate an aircraft in the NAS. Period.
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I agree with the Holiday Inn comment but suggest applying it to this post as well.

The lack of a constitutional right to a pilot certificate does not negate the constitutional right to due process.

The requirements of due process are different in criminal vs adminstrative actions, but that's different than not having any rights.
 
Unit74 said:
Tell me, where is the legal standing for the FAA to use past accusations found not guilty or unsubstantiated against someone in a medical action? Has it been challenged by the Supreme court yet? To me it runs afoul of the 6th and perhaps the 7th Amendments at minimum. Guilty even if proven innocent seems to be the FAAs position. What gives them the right to cut across the grain of our legal protections?
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The airways were “Federalized” in the 30s, frankly without any real serious consideration of Constitutional implications, and no real fight. Remember the CAB used to actually set airline ticket prices and who could fly which routes until 1978.

Since then it has just continued in that vein. It would be a huge fight (millions of $) to challenge this in court with low probability of success, though perhaps more now than decades ago.

The legislative approach has had more success - witness BasicMed.
 
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