Plane crash- not even sure what to say

jordane93 said:
He tried the approach like 4 times at FRG. I’m pretty sure the weather in NJ was a lot better than NYC and Long Island but he probably didn’t even have enough gas to get there.
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He overflew dozens of VFR options on the way in. he also flew for about 90 min after starting his first approach into Frg. Bottom line, if he made five approaches in wx that other ac were landing in safely that tells me he shouldn't have been there in that WX. Especially since a skyhawk being far slower should give you a better chance to see the rwy environment in time.
 
jordane93 said:
Yea that was the problem. He probably thought the fog would lift in FRG. Get-there-itis.
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Optimists expect fog to clear up in the morning after the sun rises and warms up the air. Who in their right mind expects fogto clear up at night? Especially when the TAFs say something else...



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Cap Koz said:
He overflew dozens of VFR options on the way in. he also flew for about 90 min after starting his first approach into Frg. Bottom line, if he made five approaches in wx that other ac were landing in safely that tells me he shouldn't have been there in that WX. Especially since a skyhawk being far slower should give you a better chance to see the rwy environment in time.
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I'd be surprised if a lot of other small GA aircraft were landing in weather like that...

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Joegoersch said:
When I fly an approach, and go missed and then repeat I figure 15-20 minutes per lap (more-or-less). Looking at the METARS and TAF, couldn't this pilot have tried once or even twice at FRG and said "Screw it, another day" and made it to MMU, or even ABE where weather was, at worst marginal VFR.

I'm glad he was OK. Poor ADM, but pretty good piloting to fly 6 approaches, low, at the end of a long, tiring flight and not veer off path and hit something--that's the usual end of stories like this. I'm pretty tired at the end of a long IFR flight and my abilities have deteriorated significantly. That why I'm pretty sure I would not have taken off. In general I think poor ADM causes just as many or more accidents than poor piloting...

I'm not going to blame ATC, but should they have suggested MMU or someplace with better weather ? Did they send him to JFK to crash on a runway knowing he was low on fuel ? I guess dangerous to send him over populated territory to MMU...tough call on ATC's part if they don't know fuel status.

Many years ago my instructor told me the only time you have too much fuel is when you are on fire ! Almost no exceptions except, perhaps, 'when you are over gross !'
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I'm not instrument rated. However, I got my PPL at TEB 20 years ago, when they had flight schools, (first soloed at MMU). With the exception of the three majors, I have flown into and out of practically every airport in the area (currently FRG). Had I put myself in his situation and was diverted from FRG to JFK, I would have tuned the ILS and stuck it into JFK no doubt, before trying to make it to MMU or EWR with low fuel.
Practiced it enough times in X-Plane :).

It was tough listening to the audio, but IMO ATC did an excellent job!
 
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redtail said:
I'm not instrument rated. However, I get my PPL at TEB 20 years ago, when they had flight schools, (first soloed at MMU). With the exception of the three majors, I have flown into and out of practically every airport in the area (currently FRG). Had I put myself in his situation and was diverted from FRG to JFK, I would have tuned the ILS and stuck it into JFK no doubt, before trying to make it to MMU or EWR with low fuel.
Practiced it enough times in X-Plane :).

It was tough listening to the audio, but IMO ATC did an excellent job!
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We can quibble about the details. I think all of us would agree we shouldn't (and there was no need to )get into a situation like this

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Cogito said:
I assume an airline would pilot hesitate to declare for fear of jeopardizing his job?
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That would be incorrect. I have had to declare a few times and never heard anything about it except once. A fed was at the airport and wanted to hear my story on having a main gear not showing down and locked. I told him what happened and that was that. Oh, it was down and locked, just the sensor was covered in mud so the light would not come on.

I heard an airline declare an emergency once because he was not getting the deviation around a thunderstorm in the direction he wanted. ATC would not let him go left due to an MOA, so he declared, ATC responded, the captain went left of course and everyone was happy.
 
bflynn said:
Model is a 172N, max 43 gallons, but a 160 engine, which most people plan around 8.5. At full fuel, the expected time is about 5 hours, 4 minutes. If you're being conservative, you'd plan it at 10 gph, which gives 4 hours, 18 minutes fuel. Assuming the previous flight was VFR, it actually went 5 minutes into the reserve, but you don't know what the planning was.

Overall, my take away is not to expect 737 performance from a 172.
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Took him a touch over 5 hours to dry tanks.
 
Joegoersch said:
Optimists expect fog to clear up in the morning after the sun rises and warms up the air. Who in their right mind expects fogto clear up at night? Especially when the TAFs say something else...
Miracle workers.


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Joegoersch said:
I'd be surprised if a lot of other small GA aircraft were landing in weather like that...

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I'm working off the premise that if you're gonna fly into 200/steam bath, you have the skills and balls to go to the map and find the runway. Of a cpl g4's ahead of him found it then presumably he should as well. The prop doesn't impair one's eyesight much vs a jet and if anything flying at 80 kts should make it easier to take your time and find the field. Again, assuming the above premise is correct.
 
Cap Koz said:
I'm working off the premise that if you're gonna fly into 200/steam bath, you have the skills and balls to go to the map and find the runway. Of a cpl g4's ahead of him found it then presumably he should as well. The prop doesn't impair one's eyesight much vs a jet and if anything flying at 80 kts should make it easier to take your time and find the field. Again, assuming the above premise is correct.
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Agreed. Some G4's are single pilot. But if they were a crew of two, it's much easier to see the runway if that's your only job!


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I don't remember exactly, but I believe VV in a METAR stands for some Latin phrase that means you damn well better have a good alternate to which you are mentally and physically prepared to fly.


KFRG 150153Z 20008KT 1/4SM FG VV002 14/14


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Joegoersch said:
Agreed. Some G4's are single pilot. But if they were a crew of two, it's much easier to see the runway if that's your only job!


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What's a G4? A model of Cirrus SR22? 'cuz a G-IV isn't single pilot.
 
Lol
Joegoersch said:
Agreed. Some G4's are single pilot. But if they were a crew of two, it's much easier to see the runway if that's your only job!


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Joegoersch said:
Agreed. Some G4's are single pilot. But if they were a crew of two, it's much easier to see the runway if that's your only job!


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no g4 I know of is sp. Yes it's easier for a crew but that wasn't my argument. I said that if this guy was flying into these conditions, one would assume he's done it before. In which case he should've been able to do it again. And if after 2 attempts he failed, then it was time for PLAN B.
 
Joegoersch said:
I don't remember exactly, but I believe VV in a METAR stands for some Latin phrase that means you damn well better have a good alternate to which you are mentally and physically prepared to fly.


KFRG 150153Z 20008KT 1/4SM FG VV002 14/14


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Joegoersch said:
I don't remember exactly, but I believe VV in a METAR stands for some Latin phrase that means you damn well better have a good alternate to which you are mentally and physically prepared to fly.


KFRG 150153Z 20008KT 1/4SM FG VV002 14/14


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LMFAO
 
GIV-SP ?
I'm not a turbine pilot, so I don't know about the G4's making it in before the 172.
In any case, my only point was a second pilot helps--immensely. One to stare at the gauges and fly, and one to look out the window...I am pretty sure about this !;)
 
PaulS said:
Just got my IR ticket, my minimums right now are published plus 500 ft and 2 miles. Are you saying my ticket should be taken away?
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If you add 500 and 2 to most non precision approaches you are at 1000 ft and 3, which is VFR.
 
Cap Koz said:
RVR and reported visibility are not the same. RVR is measured horizontally down on the runway surface with special light refraction equipment. Visibility is measured at an upward angle from the ground to the ceiling. In this case 200'. Obviously as you closer to the bases especially in low foggy conditions, visibility deteriorates relative to the ground. Hence reported visibility of 650' (1/8 mile) with RVR ranging from 1600-4000'.
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I understand that. I was commenting on Kritch's comment that the guy should have been able to do it just because the RVR was 2400+. When you're at the CAT I decision height, the RVR is entirely immaterial.
 
PaulS said:
Just got my IR ticket, my minimums right now are published plus 500 ft and 2 miles. Are you saying my ticket should be taken away?
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Paul,
I'd say if you are thinking about personal minimums, safety, and evaluating each flight then you are unlikely to be ruining perfectly good power lines !!!:)
 
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Joegoersch said:
GIV-SP ?
I'm not a turbine pilot, so I don't know about the G4's making it in before the 172.
In any case, my only point was a second pilot helps--immensely. One to stare at the gauges and fly, and one to look out the window...I am pretty sure about this !;)
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As I said earlier, I agree with you. A GIV-SP is definitely not single pilot. Just an improved version. Sp may stand for superior performance or some such thing.
 
flyingron said:
I understand that. I was commenting on Kritch's comment that the guy should have been able to do it just because the RVR was 2400+. When you're at the CAT I decision height, the RVR is entirely immaterial.
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Was just clarifying and amplifying your point.
 
Joegoersch said:
Paul,
I'd say if you are thinking about personal minimums, safety, and evaluating each flight then you are unlikely to be ruining perfectly good power lines !!!:)
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AMEN brother!
 
I’m not an IFR rated pilot but I really think this story is more of a cautionary tale of “just because you legally can does not always make it right.” I find it pretty obvious that this pilot had an idea that he fly’s a 737 so of course he could fly a little old 172. The difference being, of course, he probably had very little if any experience with this particular plane( which would make it much more difficult to fly in difficult conditions,) may have had limited knowledge of the area( since he was not from around Long Island, he may not have realized that fog is common around here this time of year and never goes away at night) and may not have adequately studied his options if something went wrong( JFK is an awful alternate and right near the water thus the fog would be worse there. Plus a diversion to New Jersey would hardly mean he could not get home that same night- given all the transportation options in this area he would have been a cab ride or train ride away.)

We can disagree about his proficiency, his abilities, his piloting skills, etc... but I do hope all of us can agree that we all need to use some common sense before making the call to take off. This guy took off in horrendous conditions in the morning, then took off again at night, flew through a line of thunderstorms and heavy rain only to guarantee he would arrive in the fog with virtually no visibility at night without any clue of alternatives. The level of confidence, or equally the level of insanity displayed here by this pilot is actually scary.
 
He kept fiddling with the auto land button on the 172 he missed that fact it was placarded “inop”.
If it is true that he was that high on approach He would have been fully deflected vertically and laterally over the numbers that he would have probably been crapping his pants.
 
I suspect based on the goofy way some of the restrictions are listed on his pilot certificate, it is one issued on the basis of a foreign license (he must have the Korean version of an ATP anyhow) and is flying on the Korean equivalent of a medical.
 
You can buy a type rating, right? After I got my license in the 90s I recall people getting type ratings, out of pocket, to make themselves more hireable.

Did he actually fly for an airline or just have the type rating?

Maybe he had the localizer nailed on the earlier approaches but in the linked video he didn’t seem to be tracking inbound well.

At one point I wondered if our picture was reversed.

Had to be scary for all involved, especially the unsuspecting passengers.
 
One of the things I enjoy in my home-built flight simulator over the years, is practicing things and situations I'd never want to find myself in IRL. As well as simulated IFR (I'm not rated...yet).

So occasionally when I see accidents like this, the Learjet at TEB, etc. I fire up X-Plane, setup the plane and weather conditions as close as possible to match and recreate the flight (minus the low fuel and crash). I find no value in simulating those.

Although the danger element isn't there, flying some of these scenarios now in VR is downright scary! As well as extremely rewarding.
 
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PaulS said:
+1 on the vis, mistyped. But, I'd have to be a little soft to launch vfr when it is 1000 3 miles around here, or anywhere for that matter, that's why I got my IFR.
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I recently did 3000' and 7 miles and that was enough for me. On this flight the distance and time didn't seem particularly arduous, but I would never have launched in those conditions. What were the conditions at Niagara?
 
iflyvfr said:
I recently did 3000' and 7 miles and that was enough for me. On this flight the distance and time didn't seem particularly arduous, but I would never have launched in those conditions. What were the conditions at Niagara?
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If this was Saturday, Toronto was CAVU, so I'm guessing Buffalo was too.
 
If FRG was my dest and I knew I could reach an alternate with decent conditions, I'd certainly have tried. The problem was that he headed into the NY metroplex with at most one hour of fuel on board, and in actuality only about 45 minutes. I'd have stopped in NJ at least to refuel if nothing else. And boy, if I had flown down to mins on an ILS I'd be inquiring where there were better conditions rather than taking four more approaches to places reporting below ILS mins.
 
With Asian attitudes of deference to authority mentioned as factors in other crashes, could it be that the pilot was (even subconsciously) waiting for somebody to tell him what to do?
 
Flying an approach in an airbus is a piece of cake compared to a 172. I've flown with many buss drivers who admit they couldn't fly an approach in an airplane without all the automation.
 
ATC tried. They asked on the third time around if he had an alternate and asked how much fuel he had remaining. When he admitted 30 minutes, the suggested JFK.
 
Grum.Man said:
Flying an approach in an airbus is a piece of cake compared to a 172. I've flown with many buss drivers who admit they couldn't fly an approach in an airplane without all the automation.
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Every year, we have to do a hand flown single engine ILS to minimums so I’m not sure if they’re joking or if they just bust their PC/MV every year.
 
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