Garmin installed halted?

Unit74

Unit74

Final Approach
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Unit74
my shop tells me Garmin has done something to the wiring and this new type of wire is basically unobtainable. This was for the G5’s and the G3X we were talking about. I told him that if he is saying I now cannot have a G3X I’m gonna strangle him. His response.....

I’ve got plenty of wire I can’t use now, so come on over. He had one dual G5 in progress and doesn’t know if he can continue it or not.

Anyone got any gouge on this or his he blowing smoke up my skirt?
 
So you wear a skirt?
I just installed a G5. Even I had the wire necessary in my garage. The G5 uses a CAN bus which is wired slightly different but nothing special is required.
 
FORANE said:
So you wear a skirt?
I just installed a G5. Even I had the wire necessary in my garage. The G5 uses a CAN bus which is wired slightly different but nothing special is required.
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Don’t judge me Honey....I’ll tell them all about “us”. And you still owe me that $20 spot from last week...o_O

As to the CANBUS, that’s what issue was. It’s causing issues using regular wire.
 
Garmin just specified a certain brand of double-shielded wire for the CAN bus. This wire costs about 15 times as much as normal 2-conductor shielded wire, and the manufacturer of this specific wire is 12+ weeks back ordered.
 
Garmin's position, as stated on Beechtalk, is that if the install was already started using an install manual revision that didn't require the new type of wire, it can be continued using the "old" wire. If an install has not yet been started, the installer has to use the latest revision of the manual and the "new" wire.
 
Starts to make the G ecosystem much less appealing.
 
Can someone explain who got their zipper pulled down in order to mandate a certain BRAND of wire that must be used all of a sudden?
 
Each FAA approved revision of the manual is still FAA approved, until there is an AD mandating the expensive wire (the only way competed installs would get reworked), probably fine using the other
 
bnt83 said:
Each FAA approved revision of the manual is still FAA approved, until there is an AD mandating the expensive wire (the only way competed inatalls would get reworked), I'd use the other
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Aren't many radio shops repair stations? As a repair station, isn't the shop gonna have a repair station manual that dictates that it use the most current install manuals?
 
bnt83 said:
Each FAA approved revision of the manual is still FAA approved, until there is an AD mandating the expensive wire (the only way competed installs would get reworked), probably fine using the other
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You sure about that? If the latest rev. Of the STC states X has to be done, how on earth is it a legal installation if you are just like, naawww....I’ll do it this way instead?
 
TCABM said:
Starts to make the G ecosystem much less appealing.
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Yes it does. Garmin said that installations that have already started don’t have to use the new wire.
 
Unit74 said:
You sure about that? If the latest rev. Of the STC states X has to be done, how on earth is it a legal installation if you are just like, naawww....I’ll do it this way instead?
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Is it legal? Probably not. Are there lots of planes out there flying around with things that are illegal because of issues like this? Definitely.
 
I think EAB is tired of #winning at this point. Good Lord. I'm not even an avionics fanboi and I can tell this graft on the certified side is out of control. Talk about captive audience lol.
 
Jesse Saint said:
Yes it does. Garmin said that installations that have already started don’t have to use the new wire.
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I wonder how it’ll impact upgrades to existing installs where you’ve just got a G5 or two and a 430W/530W, but would like to move up to G3x+new navigator and whether a re-wire becomes forced.

It might be trivial, but could impact the total cost to make Dynon or Aspen look a lot more competitive on price.
 
$4.50 a steenkin' foot. For a 10 or 15' run, just how is the difference in resistance going to make a whit's bit of difference over standard tefzel twisted pair? Any EE's in da house?
 
so whats the benefit of these "new" wires again?
 
Be grateful that CANBUS is only 2 wires Daisy chained. I can't imagine the cost overrun if the parallel bus point-to-point stuff had to switch to unicorn wires.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
$4.50 a steenkin' foot. For a 10 or 15' run, just how is the difference in resistance going to make a whit's bit of difference over standard tefzel twisted pair? Any EE's in da house?
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Resistance is only one quality of a twisted pair, and not likely the most important in this case.
 
asicer said:
Be grateful that CANBUS is only 2 wires Daisy chained. I can't imagine the cost overrun if the parallel bus point-to-point stuff had to switch to unicorn wires.
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And only a 12-week back order.
 
TCABM said:
And only a 12-week back order.
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That's the part that doesn't make sense to me. CANBUS has been used in all sorts of transportation related stuff for decades. You'd think they'd be able to use the surplus from cancelled 737MAX orders. Maybe Tesla 3 production is causing the shortage?
 
I’m guessing the “double shielded” is the key feature of the new wire. Even digital bus signals are susceptible to analog noise if it’s bad enough.
 
I've been watching this with interest. Here's the basics of the situation:

* Garmin added this spec wire to Rev. 16 of the G5 install manual. There are other new requirements as well, and mostly they're related to the removal of the FIKI limitation.
* The reason for the new wire is for better impedance matching on longer CAN bus connections. Unfortunately, airplanes with only short runs are still stuck using the new-spec wire.
* The wire was already pretty much unobtanium then at $4.50/foot. The sudden demand hasn't helped, I saw this morning that they were quoting nearly $10/foot now! :eek:
* All installations must use the latest install manual as of the start of the project. Already-started installations can continue using the version of the manual that was current when they started.

It sounds like engineering may have green-lighted the changes without checking to see whether the wiring was in good supply... Oops.
 
TCABM said:
I wonder how it’ll impact upgrades to existing installs where you’ve just got a G5 or two and a 430W/530W, but would like to move up to G3x+new navigator and whether a re-wire becomes forced.

It might be trivial, but could impact the total cost to make Dynon or Aspen look a lot more competitive on price.
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True story from where I’m standing. G3X experimental and G5 experimental and certified installations have been using long CAN bus wiring with normal twisted pair shielded wire with no errors.
 
Jesse Saint said:
True story from where I’m standing. G3X experimental and G5 experimental and certified installations have been using long CAN bus wiring with normal twisted pair shielded wire with no errors.
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So someone at Carlisle has dirt someone at Garmin.... got it!:eek:
 
This affects GFC 500 installs as well.

I gotta believe they will rewrite the Carlisle wiring requirements, to only need when exceeding a certain length. Otherwise this is just a kick in the teeth.


Tom
 
Jesse Saint said:
True story from where I’m standing. G3X experimental and G5 experimental and certified installations have been using long CAN bus wiring with normal twisted pair shielded wire with no errors.
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I don’t doubt that at all.
 
How much CANBUS wire does a typical GA installation need?
 
asicer said:
How much CANBUS wire does a typical GA installation need?
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Depends on the location of the mag compass, which is sometimes in the tail, sometimes in a wing. The rest is mostly behind the panel, depending on AHRS mounting point.
 
bradg33 said:
Garmin's position, as stated on Beechtalk, is that if the install was already started using an install manual revision that didn't require the new type of wire, it can be continued using the "old" wire. If an install has not yet been started, the installer has to use the latest revision of the manual and the "new" wire.
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That makes sense, since the changes in the laws of physics follow along with the publication date of a manual.
 
Thy have been doing a whole bunch of monkeying around with it since rev 11 that stands out to me. A poster had gotten afield approval for a glareshield mounted antenna to connect to the G5 which seemed lacking to me because at that time the STC only pointed to an Garmin antenna STC using a GA35 (or its cousins) and mounting them like a WAAS/LPV navigator requires.

Fast forward a few months and Rev 13 of the installation manual is approved and released, SKIPPING Rev 12! The table of revisions (at the beginning of every install manual) showed that a glareshieled antenna was added in Rev 12 but removed in Rev 13. I looked at all the approval documents and there are none for Rev 12 of the install manual, and you cannot get rev 12 of the install manual.

Now its all the way up to Rev 17 and the glareshield mounted antenna is in it and this new CANBUS wire thing.
 
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Unit74 said:
You sure about that? If the latest rev. Of the STC states X has to be done, how on earth is it a legal installation if you are just like, naawww....I’ll do it this way instead?
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Every FAA approved Rev of the install manual is still on the public website, including the STC certificate, the associated STC master drawing list,, STC ICA and STC AFMS. Garmin engineering saying "you have to _________" on a public forum holds little regulatory weight, (like my opinion).

Use MDL Rev 13 documents https://support.garmin.com/support/manuals/manuals.htm?partNo=K10-00280-00&language=en&country=US

If they screwed up by allowing an inferior spec in the manual to be installed that is causing problems, that is AD territory, but they would want to wait until those products already installed are out of warranty so they didn't have to pay to fix it.

Something very similar was pointed out a while back by the EAB crowd, that was what conductors were being used to terminate shields, historically, regular stranded aircraft wire was used, now they want braided wires used.
 
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