Thinking of a career change to 121 / 135 flying.. thoughts/experiences?

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compute42

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compute42
There's a lot of unknowns for me in this and before I start to look further at this as even a possibility I'd love to hear from people who have experience in this.

Currently have about 400Hrs IFR rated private pilot. Mostly 182's, Saratogas, DA40's etc.
Thinking of leaving a fairly successful career in the entertainment industry to fly for a bunch of reasons, personal, not much free time, more time for wife to work on her career, family etc. It would most likely be a pay downgrade I'm sure and I'm ok with that. I'm mid/late 30's Don't need the transition to be instant can be built up/worked towards over a couple years as my current job can be somewhat flexible.

Goal would be a 121 job for a Major. Fine with 135, don't want to do the CFI route. Need to be near a major hub etc, can't go to Asia or Africa or something like that (got a family).

Initial thoughts were buying a fairly economical twin, and just flying a bunch of XC time all over the US. 400-500 hrs over the next year or so. I'm in a position I can afford to do that, and would be easier to fly on my own schedule rather than do a program to allow me to continue to work at my current job.
I don't have a Bachelors, however I have an almost finished BA from years ago that could be completed fairly easily if needed. Sounds like it's a requirement for ATP/majors?
Looks like the RAW time needed for ATP is 1500 since I wouldn't have come through a "approved school" etc. So I'm looking at ATP in 2-3 years or so.

I'm thinking maybe fly the **** out of a twin, get like 400 hours... Then get some part time 135 charter/cargo work, to get to the magic 1500hrs.

Anyone else perused this route? ;-)
TIA
 
I am currently perusing the route. I am planning on doing it differently. My plan is to quit my job and get ratings full time and then fly non-stop until I either get a gig or hit 1500. My numbers are behind yours though. I am just shy of 200. The current plan is to do all my ratings in the Archer I own. After about 500 hours (on top - so total time 700) I am thinking of buying an Aztec to build up my multi time. My big limitation right now is not being able to move. I would have to get hired on with a regional that bases me out of Chicago. I can't implement my plan until after I move back stateside so right now mine is on ice. I have a BS so I don't have that issue like you do.

My plan continues to evolve, so I am sure it will be changed by the time implementation comes.
 
I've been seriously contemplating a career change as well. Thought about building time privately like you guys are considering however after having done a lot of research decided not to do it that way. From what I have read, if you log mostly personal flight time, make sure you can document. Fair or not, Airlines look at the kind of time with some skepticism. Beyond that, if you want to get on with one of the better regionals, time flying in a part 135 or as a CFI will be viewed more favorably.
 
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FlyingTiger said:
I've been seriously contemplating a career change as well. Thought about building time privately like you guys are considering however after having done a lot of research decided not to do it that way. From what I have read, if you log mostly personal flight time, make sure you can document. Fair or not, Airlines look at the kind of time with some skepticism. Beyond that, if you want to get on with one of the better regionals, time flying in a part 135 or as a CFI will be viewed more favorably.
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I can provide them downloads of all the data from my engine monitor. ;) And testimonials from all the Pilots N Paws people I have flown for.

If I can find a gig in Central IL that pays, I will use that to time build. If not, will do it on my own and see what happens. If it doesn't work out, I will have some fun stories to tell.
 
Yea, that's the big hurdle, finding a paying job close enough that you don't have to relocate or commute by air. We have a 135 operator here in PA that does EAS and has a few bases within 2-3 hour drive from my home. That's the direction I may take. I'll still need a crash pad but at least it's easy for me to be home on the off days.
 
compute42 said:
Thinking of leaving a fairly successful career in the entertainment industry to fly for a bunch of reasons, personal, not much free time, more time for wife to work on her career, family etc.
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I'm sure I'm reading this wrong. But what I'm getting from it is you're thinking about becoming an airline pilot so you can spend more time at home. That's funny. Hilarious. And yeah yeah I've heard all that stories about how I fly for X and I only work 12 days a month yada yada yada. I'm not sure its realistic to expect that, or anything close to it, to be the reality for anyone with less than 10 years in the game.

Initial thoughts were buying a fairly economical twin, and just flying a bunch of XC time all over the US. 400-500 hrs over the next year or so. I'm in a position I can afford to do that, and would be easier to fly on my own schedule rather than do a program to allow me to continue to work at my current job.
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I'd recommend against buying and flying to get hours. While twin time is indeed valuable, it won't be turbine time and it won't be operating in a professional environment. Better to save that money for the lean years ahead.

A better route is to work your way into the right seat of 135 gig. You don't need ATP to sit right seat in a King Air or something similar. Plus it will give you and your family a good taste of the lifestyle of professional travel flying (i.e. not instructing or flying jumpers or the like where you sleep in your own bed every night). If the lifestyle turns out to be a good fit, great. If it doesn't, you're not out much and you can go back to your old life or some other new one. Find every 135 operator within 100 miles of you and figure out a way to make yourself an attractive thorn in their side until one of them hires you and get your twin turbine time that way.
 
One thing to keep in mind is the schedule of a flying pilot. It's not a M-F 9-5 and does require commitment from your spouse to support. That said, it still may result in more time at home and with your family. My wife recently started flying jets for a 135 on an 8 and 6 schedule (8 on, 6 off), and our kids are 6 and 4 (twin 4 year olds). The 8 days on solo are a challenge, but my wife also makes sure we have lots of food stocked up when she's home so that helps minimize my workload. In reality the 6 days she's home are good quality time for everyone involved, so it's a balance that we're liking.

If you go airlines, just assume that you'll be gone every weekend for a while. You have to build seniority to get the desirable days off, and that includes weekends and holidays.
 
Why wouldn't you fly something way cheaper on fuel (purchase a 172,Archer) and build the hours. You didn't once mention flying your family around so a twin or even a bigger piston single would just be a lot of wasted fuel - maybe I am missing something?
 
Look for corporate or 135 charter ops that need a SIC, get your multi and get your name out, I made the move almost a year ago at around 600 hours and 42 years old , Jet jobs are out there for low time guys , all about networking and right place at the right time.
 
compute42 said:
more time for wife to work on her career, family etc.
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If you are serious about flying for a living, don't expect to be home much during the lean years. My first flying jobs kept me away from home for a minimum of 20 days a month, with 14 hour days and sharing beds. It is possible you could only get 13 days off scattered throughout a 90 day period.

I was single so that made it less stressful on me.

compute42 said:
It would most likely be a pay downgrade
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It will definitely be a reduction in pay, unless you are working for free now.

It can be done. I started flying for a living at 38. It just depends on how serious you are about wanting to fly for a living. I mean a serious dedication to flying will be needed and more so in the early years.

muddy00 said:
all about networking and right place at the right time.
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This is worth saying twice.
 
Expect the worst, hope for the best. In my second month flying at my regional, I was able to hold weekends off and anywhere from 15-18 days off. I never missed a birthday or holiday (worked July 4th by choice). This is not the norm. That being said, when I’m off, I’m off. I don’t take any work home. The pay is great, travel benefits, etc. I’ve flown with career changers who were happy with the decision and I’ve flown with ones who didn’t like the change.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
I love the polar opposites between @Zeldman and @jordane93 . Just proves that aviation can be a vast world. Literally.
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Timing is everything . He was also probably working at the time when regional FOs were on food stamps and making 18K a year. First year FO pay at my shop is 60K. Most FOs make more than that by picking up trips and swapping stuff around for more credit. In this hiring environment, you’d have to be crazy not to give it a shot at least. That being said, 121 or 135 is not for everyone. To each their own.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
One thing to keep in mind is the schedule of a flying pilot. It's not a M-F 9-5 and does require commitment from your spouse to support. That said, it still may result in more time at home and with your family. My wife recently started flying jets for a 135 on an 8 and 6 schedule (8 on, 6 off), and our kids are 6 and 4 (twin 4 year olds). The 8 days on solo are a challenge, but my wife also makes sure we have lots of food stocked up when she's home so that helps minimize my workload. In reality the 6 days she's home are good quality time for everyone involved, so it's a balance that we're liking.

If you go airlines, just assume that you'll be gone every weekend for a while. You have to build seniority to get the desirable days off, and that includes weekends and holidays.
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Great post. I will say, your wife is in the statistical minority of female pilots. Good bad or indifferent, most women with children that age are quitting the cockpit in order to prioritize time at home. Certainly not running head first into an "8 day on" flying job.

Ill say, add you being a hospital nurse as a hypothetical on top of your wife's present schedule, and you get to the impasse I had in my house regarding the part 121 dinner table discussion. People don't like admitting it, but not every family is set up for it outright. Though my main reason from shying away from 121 work dealt with some medical issues in the family that are not here nor there, these fundamental scheduling incompatibilities were right up there in my decision to let the hiring wave pass me by. Now theres simply too many younger folks already hired, so I no longer have an incentive to jump. People hired in the 2020s are not gonna have an enviable career imo, from where I sit on the topic anyways.

At any rate, great discussion and all the points I was gonna highlight for the OP have been touched on. Last thing ill say, its easier when you were a traveling pilot when your family became a family. But to throw this loop on a family accustomed to a pedestrian domestic schedule? Try changing the channel on a 5 year old mid cartoon. Sure some will exercise resiliency, most won't. On my end I told the wife once the kid no longer is a central part of our daily schedule (college) we 'll probably pivot and do whatever we want on the scheduling front. But I admit the job isn't set up for my family's needs right now. I have no quarrel taking a pay cut every day on that account. I would have stayed single if making airline pilot money was that central to my life.
 
jordane93 said:
Timing is everything . He was also probably working at the time when regional FOs were on food stamps and making 18K a year. First year FO pay at my shop is 60K. Most FOs make more than that by picking up trips and swapping stuff around for more credit. In this hiring environment, you’d have to be crazy not to give it a shot at least. That being said, 121 or 135 is not for everyone. To each their own.
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True. Which is why I am glad that if I get towards the end of my hours and the pilot shortage tanks, I am very employable in my current career. Carpe diem.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Great post. I will say, your wife is in the statistical minority of female pilots. Good bad or indifferent, most women with children that age are quitting the cockpit in order to prioritize time at home. Certainly not running head first into an "8 day on" flying job.
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There's a long backstory there. She was ripped from the cockpit of the Sikorsky S-92 she was flying, while on-shift (in those days it was 2-3 weeks on/2-3 weeks off, depending on the base) when she got pregnant with our first child. She then spent 5 years not flying, being a stay-at-home mom through the birth of our son and then our twin girls. She believed she was done flying, even though I knew better. She never listens to me when I'm right. ;)

About 2 years ago a former student of hers from 15ish years ago who had become chief pilot at a localish air ambulance company called her up, asked if she was interested in getting into flying air ambulance in the 206s part time. I encouraged her to jump at it. Well end result was she got in the King Airs and was director of training. That job had her gone anywhere from 1-5 days at a time, pretty much every week, and served as a good transition towards surviving with her gone. Reality is that she did the stay-at-home mom thing, but mentally she wants a job. Not all women are wired that way.

Then last year she decided she wanted to fly jets, started researching the different companies, we talked about schedules, etc. In the end, she landed at her first choice (which was really both our first choices). She's been there about 5 months and loves it, and we're all doing well with it. She'd been thinking about getting a desk job and while I would love to have her home every night, I think the reality is that this is a better situation for our family. Emphasis added, because everyone is different. The kids have accustomed to mom being gone, I've accustomed to being Mr. Mom when she's gone, we have a fantastic nanny while I'm working during the day. There are some other changes I hope to make in my schedule to get more quality time when she's home, but that's a future goal.

Ill say, add you being a hospital nurse as a hypothetical on top of your wife's present schedule, and you get to the impasse I had in my house regarding the part 121 dinner table discussion. People don't like admitting it, but not every family is set up for it outright. Though my main reason from shying away from 121 work dealt with some medical issues in the family that are not here nor there, these fundamental scheduling incompatibilities were right up there in my decision to let the hiring wave pass me by. Now theres simply too many younger folks already hired, so I no longer have an incentive to jump. People hired in the 2020s are not gonna have an enviable career imo, from where I sit on the topic anyways.

At any rate, great discussion and all the points I was gonna highlight for the OP have been touched on. Last thing ill say, its easier when you were a traveling pilot when your family became a family. But to throw this loop on a family accustomed to a pedestrian domestic schedule? Try changing the channel on a 5 year old mid cartoon. Sure some will exercise resiliency, most won't. On my end I told the wife once the kid no longer is a central part of our daily schedule (college) we 'll probably pivot and do whatever we want on the scheduling front. But I admit the job isn't set up for my family's needs right now. I have no quarrel taking a pay cut every day on that account. I would have stayed single if making airline pilot money was that central to my life.
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The similar point here is that because of my wife's job, I cannot take a flying job and have to keep my desk job, or at least something that keeps me at home and essentially requires zero travel. Fortunately I still like my desk job, but I did have to give up that option as part of supporting my wife in her career. The kids will have to be in college before I could think about taking a flying job, unless I wanted to do local instruction or very short hops.
 
muddy00 said:
Look for corporate or 135 charter ops that need a SIC, get your multi and get your name out, I made the move almost a year ago at around 600 hours and 42 years old , Jet jobs are out there for low time guys , all about networking and right place at the right time.
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That may be hard to log PIC time, or at least the PIC time that an airline wants.
 
At your age & all it is quite doable. As is always the case, individual initiative & goals factors in heavily. I’d try to put yourself on a/the ‘fast-track’ as much as possible. That means lots of hours & of the best quality you’re able to muster.

I’d work in the flying side 1st, before finishing up a 4 year degree.
 
Thanks everyone for the replies. And yes you didn’t read that wrong about having more free/family time being a pilot. Lol.
I work on gigs that are GO! every day for 12-16 hours a day sometimes doing 90-100 days straight without a single day off. Sometimes at home, sometimes not. Some gigs are easy, some a huge production. I usually pick 1-2 of these “big” gigs/yr and do easier work the rest of the year making my time somewhat flexible.
Ideally the 121/major schedule would be the dream even though there are nights away it would be more sane and predictable than my current schedule. Pay is very good but when you factor 80-100hr weeks it should be.
Ideally I’d like to be in the 80-100k range after 5-6 years of flying commercially.

I live in Los Angeles so I know there’s lots of 135 work around here. Have a few people I know who pick up gigs in a Lear or G-IV as a side gig.
My question (as mentioned by someone else) is picking up right seat time in things like KA or pc-12’s etc is it gonna be what a regional or major is looking for? Is SIC time gonna cut it? Or they gonna need PIC time etc.
Is putting around for 500hrs in a light twin just kinda useless for the resume?


Thank you again for all the insightful responses. Glad I’m not the only crazy one who is having a mid life career change hahaha.
 
I think for a regional, almost any time works. They do have requirements listed on recruitment sites, cross country, instrument, multi, etc.

For starters, any hours, then fill in as able.
 
compute42 said:
Thanks everyone for the replies. And yes you didn’t read that wrong about having more free/family time being a pilot. Lol.
I work on gigs that are GO! every day for 12-16 hours a day sometimes doing 90-100 days straight without a single day off. Sometimes at home, sometimes not. Some gigs are easy, some a huge production. I usually pick 1-2 of these “big” gigs/yr and do easier work the rest of the year making my time somewhat flexible.
Ideally the 121/major schedule would be the dream even though there are nights away it would be more sane and predictable than my current schedule. Pay is very good but when you factor 80-100hr weeks it should be.
Ideally I’d like to be in the 80-100k range after 5-6 years of flying commercially.

I live in Los Angeles so I know there’s lots of 135 work around here. Have a few people I know who pick up gigs in a Lear or G-IV as a side gig.
My question (as mentioned by someone else) is picking up right seat time in things like KA or pc-12’s etc is it gonna be what a regional or major is looking for? Is SIC time gonna cut it? Or they gonna need PIC time etc.
Is putting around for 500hrs in a light twin just kinda useless for the resume?


Thank you again for all the insightful responses. Glad I’m not the only crazy one who is having a mid life career change hahaha.
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Nobody cares where you got the hours from. Just get ATP mins and pass 121 training. We’ve had 135, 121, crop dusters, aerial survey, and CFIs all fail out of training at my airline. So one route isn’t going to the best. My advice is to be VERY proficient in IFR ops before you get to your 121 training.
 
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jordane93 said:
Timing is everything . He was also probably working at the time when regional FOs were on food stamps and making 18K a year. First year FO pay at my shop is 60K. Most FOs make more than that by picking up trips and swapping stuff around for more credit. In this hiring environment, you’d have to be crazy not to give it a shot at least. That being said, 121 or 135 is not for everyone. To each their own.
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Yep, timing was my problem. My one and only (or should I say first and last) regional experience was in 1999. The pay was 1300/mth and when it was time the pilots were expected to pay for their own ATP. In Alaska I was making 100k and having a lot of fun and adventure. Down south I met poor regional pilot folks that would jumpseat just to get the inflight meal, and sleep on the ride because they did not have a place to stay for their 10 hours off. I am really happy to hear that it is not like that anymore. And the FOs wish they were making 18K a year back then...:lol::lol:

jordane93 said:
That being said, 121 or 135 is not for everyone.
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Worth saying twice. I have seen folks leave during the ground school because they learned flying for a living wasn't for them. Or get their first days off and then never return.
 
Kritchlow said:
That may be hard to log PIC time, or at least the PIC time that an airline wants.
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SIC time at 135 tends to lead to PIC time at a 135. Working for a 135 is one of the things the OP said he was looking to do. PIC time is good, but twin turbine PIC is better when it comes to airlines. The OP said he was thinking of buying a twin to build time in. Though he didn't clarify it, I assume he's thinking piston twin. I'd get a job and get paid to build time rather than spending my savings to build time in something that isn't twin turbine and therefore won't open doors (or at least not as many door) anyway.
 
compute42 said:
My question (as mentioned by someone else) is picking up right seat time in things like KA or pc-12’s etc is it gonna be what a regional or major is looking for? Is SIC time gonna cut it? Or they gonna need PIC time etc.
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Nobody has mentioned it yet but I’d suggest being careful with that. You’re talking about single pilot airplanes so time in the right seat may or may not be able to be logged, depending on circumstances. Know what you’re getting into, to insure the time is valuable.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
SIC time at 135 tends to lead to PIC time at a 135. Working for a 135 is one of the things the OP said he was looking to do. PIC time is good, but twin turbine PIC is better when it comes to airlines. The OP said he was thinking of buying a twin to build time in. Though he didn't clarify it, I assume he's thinking piston twin. I'd get a job and get paid to build time rather than spending my savings to build time in something that isn't twin turbine and therefore won't open doors (or at least not as many door) anyway.
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For major airlines sure but regionals are hiring pilots with no turbine and less than 100 multi
 
Please allow me to pile on with a new question - how old is too old?

I’m 52 with 200 hours, but I have the ability to start flying a lot if I choose. I think it probably takes at least a year and a half minimum to make 1500, so figure I’m 55 with 10 years before 121 mandatory retirement. Still doable?
 
bflynn said:
Please allow me to pile on with a new question - how old is too old?

I’m 52 with 200 hours, but I have the ability to start flying a lot if I choose. I think it probably takes at least a year and a half minimum to make 1500, so figure I’m 55 with 10 years before 121 mandatory retirement. Still doable?
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I got my first part 135 job in Alaska at 57 yrs old. Single pilot, (mostly) VFR only in 20,000 hr+ Cessna 207s. Although I've stayed in the 135 world both in Alaska and the lower 48, I've known several guys to to go on to regional jet flying in their mid 50s. It can be done. I've also seen more than a few younger guys and gals come back to Part 135 after some time at the regionals. I'm 65 and now fly PC12s Part 135 in the lower 48 and Alaska. That said, there are frustrations as a working pilot just as with any other job. As much as I still enjoy flying, there are days I'd rather not, but still get up and go to work. Good Luck.
 
Lots of good advice in this thread. Pretty balanced IMO as well.

Zeldman said:
Worth saying twice. I have seen folks leave during the ground school because they learned flying for a living wasn't for them. Or get their first days off and then never return.
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Yep! The point about this career being a lifestyle is exactly right, and the lifestyle is not for everyone. One thing I'd add for the OP is that if you get started down this career path and decide you're not happy with the lifestyle or that it's not working for your family - don't fall into the trap of suffering through it with the hope it'll suddenly work once you 'make it' to that dream job. Perhaps the money gets better, the planes bigger and hotels/overnights nicer, but none of that changes the reality of the lifestyle. In other words, if your wife is fed up with the job while you're at Mesa - she's still going to be fed up with the job while you're at Delta. The only difference is that when she walks away with half your sh**, it'll be nicer sh**. ;)

That said, if the reality of the career works for you and your family - keep at it and enjoy the ride! I feel really fortunate to have the opportunity to do what I do.
 
I'll add that it might be a good idea to give Cage Marshall Consulting a call and see what their answers are to your questions. They have helped me quite a bit with making decisions.

https://www.cageconsulting.com
 
Tarheelpilot said:
If you’re not coming from the military it’s very hard if not almost impossible to make it to a major without having prior 121
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This has been changing recently. I've seen several people get directly into majors without any prior 121 or military time. However they do typically have more significant 135 time and a pretty good resume.

Haven't tried it myself, but it seems to be less impossible than it used to be.
 
bflynn said:
Please allow me to pile on with a new question - how old is too old?

I’m 52 with 200 hours, but I have the ability to start flying a lot if I choose. I think it probably takes at least a year and a half minimum to make 1500, so figure I’m 55 with 10 years before 121 mandatory retirement. Still doable?
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What's your goal in 121? Would you be happy spending 10 years at a regional, or do you need to get to a major? With the right regional, you'd be a captain in 3 years or so of being there and could have reasonable seniority in the left seat.
 
You say you have a family, what are they going to think of you be gone 8 and home 4?
 
Something I’ve yet to see mentioned across many of these threads is the pax interaction.

I’d wager a great majority of the time, it’s a non-issue. But the responsibility for safely delivering passengers extends beyond just flying the plane.

The last thing I want is to get drug into someone else’s BSC. So there’s the cargo option, right?

I spent a lot of time flying the backside of the clock, eating dinner for breakfast and vice versa. I’m not interested is going back to that, either.

Which leaves corporate, which is where I might end up. Right now, I’m just enjoying having a significant say and autonomy in my current post-military career.

That goes away in any pro flying, so I’ll probably end up doing some instructing on the side and pick a type to specialize in where there’s a positive attitude towards transition and/or recurring proficiency training.
 
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bflynn said:
Please allow me to pile on with a new question - how old is too old?

I’m 52 with 200 hours, but I have the ability to start flying a lot if I choose. I think it probably takes at least a year and a half minimum to make 1500, so figure I’m 55 with 10 years before 121 mandatory retirement. Still doable?
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A friend of mine went to a regional at 62. They wanted to upgrade him at 63, but he talked them into spending their money on someone else and keep him as a FO until time to kick him out. Which is what they did. He had previous Pt 91 and Pt 135 jet time.

So get busy and start flying...:yes:
 
Clip4 said:
You say you have a family, what are they going to think of you be gone 8 and home 4?
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Well as it currently goes I’m gone at 12noon home at 4AM. Lol. I’ve never had a 9-5 so it’s a non issue in our family.
 
I've got an uncle who retired less than a year ago from working the O&G corporate gig as Chief Pilot (mostly flying a fleet of 3 Falcons) doing a decent bit of international flying based out of Houston. He initially renewed his CFI but now flies mostly right-seat for a long-time friend/acquaintance back and forth across the US for extra income. Not bad work if you can get it!

I would love to do corporate-style flying or 135-charter work if I was able to retire early enough to make a go of getting the hours together. However, I nor my wife would trade my current income/work schedule to pursue that career option while I have 1 child (soon to be 2) in their younger years. Once they're off to college, then maybe, but something like a 50% pay cut to fly at the regional airlines is hard to stomach at this point.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I would love to do corporate-style flying or 135-charter work if I was able to retire early enough to make a go of getting the hours together. However, I nor my wife would trade my current income/work schedule to pursue that career option while I have 1 child (soon to be 2) in their younger years. Once they're off to college, then maybe, but something like a 50% pay cut to fly at the regional airlines is hard to stomach at this point.
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Yeah, that's why I am a bit crazy to think about this. If I do this it will be a massive pay cut (more than 50%). At this point, my career is killing me so I need to do something different. The money doesn't seem to be worth it.
 
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