Getting the shaft, need help wrapping up PPL

kath said:
Now hang on... To our knowledge, this wasn't some kind of "$XX upfront and you are guaranteed a PPL" agreement with the school. He paid to rent a plane and to hire an instructor. As far as we know, he has received 20K worth of rental of an airplane and dual instruction. The hours are in his logbook, the dual time is in his logbook, and the logbook is his and *has value*, no matter how frustrating all this may seem to him right now. We can argue about whether the dual instruction was of quality, but he could've stopped paying for the services anytime, and I don't see any breach of contract here.

Jamie, I would not advocate going back to the school to confront them. They've decided they don't want you as a customer anymore, and that's that. You cannot force them to rent you their DA40 if they don't want to. It's their plane, you don't have a "right" to access to it. (Again, unless there's something in your contract with them, which I can't imagine there is, or you would've brought that up already.) Busting out "I'm a legal expert and you wouldn't want me as an enemy" rhetoric and threatening audits is a sure-fire way to get turned down by schools/CFI's/DPE's present and future.

Checkride fees vary, and yes, $800 for a checkride is conceivable ($700-800 is the going rate where I am).
No, the CFI/school does not get a cut of checkride fees. <-- if you have evidence of this happening, bring it to the FSDO.
Not all CFI's teach flying full-time.
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Sorry Kath, we'll have to disagree on this point. Jamie's intention is to obtain a pilot cert, not log hours in his log book. That's an important distinction, and now this place is actively conspiring against him to reach his goal AFTER taking $20,000 of his money, they have failed their mission and, if Jamie's side of the story is accurate, are terrible people. The best outcome now for this company is for Jamie to wuss out, send a few more emails and texts, then go away. Confronting them and asking for help from them to finish the job they started keeps the pressure on them, hopefully some of their current customers will be there to hear the ruckus and cause them to move on this. This is how life works, hiding from conflict seldom benefits the one who has been wronged. Personally I would exhaust the in person negotiations, part of which, near the end, IF things aren't going my way, I would specifically tell them that I will be publicly giving them negative reviews, and I will be asking my local FSDO what I did wrong to deserve this treatment from one of their DPEs. Give them a chance to fix it, let them know what you are planning to do if they don't, then follow through, key part, follow through.
 
PaulS said:
Sorry Kath, we'll have to disagree on this point. Jamie's intention is to obtain a pilot cert, not log hours in his log book. That's an important distinction, and now this place is actively conspiring against him to reach his goal AFTER taking $20,000 of his money, they have failed their mission and, if Jamie's side of the story is accurate, are terrible people. The best outcome now for this company is for Jamie to wuss out, send a few more emails and texts, then go away. Confronting them and asking for help from them to finish the job they started keeps the pressure on them, hopefully some of their current customers will be there to hear the ruckus and cause them to move on this. This is how life works, hiding from conflict seldom benefits the one who has been wronged. Personally I would exhaust the in person negotiations, part of which, near the end, IF things aren't going my way, I would specifically tell them that I will be publicly giving them negative reviews, and I will be asking my local FSDO what I did wrong to deserve this treatment from one of their DPEs. Give them a chance to fix it, let them know what you are planning to do if they don't, then follow through, key part, follow through.
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Not sure how it got to $20k but from my records prior to them locking me out of the account was $14,160
 
I would love to hear the other side of this story. I bet the explanations are more reasonable than not and the primary intent isn’t to screw anyone. Creating a successful aviation business is hard enough, let alone trying to create one while running off customers.

It seems to me like there may be some unrealistic expectations on time to completion which prompted some impatience. The average hours to earn a private certificate these days is somewhere around 70 or 80 these days if I’m not mistaken? Learning in a large metro area where there are longer wait times for takeoff and practice areas that are farther away from the airport don’t help matters.

If I could make a suggestion it would be to take a little vacation and head somewhere out of town with the intent to finish the private training up and take a checkride. Yes it is an inconvenience and yes it will probably cost a bit more but the headaches will be minimal compared to what they would likely be if you keep trying to force the issue with the people you are currently trying to work with.

Also, complaining to the FSDO is unlikely to accomplish anything. They’re interested in things related to actual flying and airplanes, not poor business practices.
 
No idea what the situation is here, or who is right or wrong, but if you can't resolve this in a few calls/emails etc, you should have an attorney send a letter detailing what's going on and seek immediate resolution. If it doesnt help, your attorney can help you to negotiate a settlement. imo, when folks see you're serious about a resolution, they'll work with you. I know nobody likes to get lawyers involved, but you've kinda exhausted your alternatives now and this is a bunch of money, especially for a hobby.
 
So $14,160 / $250 per hour = 56 hours. About half the national average for part 61 and less than the average for part 141. If true, that sounds like this is frustrating, but not completely out of line.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
So $14,160 / $250 per hour = 56 hours. About half the national average for part 61 and less than the average for part 141. If true, that sounds like this is frustrating, but not completely out of line.
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I have 79 hours with the school.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
I have 79 hours with the school.
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Well sound considerably less than average for part 61 and perhaps a bit over for part 141 (don’t recall if the school was part 141 or not). Anyway, sounds like you have a good setup now with your own plane. Enjoy the freedom
 
WHOA , forget the call to fsdo,forget calling a attorney...forget the 112 the chances of you finding a some what competent instructor with 10 hrs in the Rockcomode you would have a better chance of a ride on the next dragon....on the next avatar. The 112 is a good sled BUT get to a flight school nearby that have 150 or 172 or Cherokee something common there instructors have plenty of time in...get a good review on the ground then min 3 hrs of flight fresh sign off stay current to check ride...yea DPE s are a bit busy lately makin hay while the sun shines....Past check ride incomplete ? What marine layer ? DPE indegestion ?
 
You need to contact FSDO... and a lawyer.

You owe no allegiance to respect to the school or the DPE. For all intents and purposes, they have cheated or defrauded you.

The CFI telling you you had no right to go elsewhere is clueless and lying through his teeth.
 
“We have a policy that you must use a DPE we approve”. Ok, where is your policy manual?
 
mondtster said:
I would love to hear the other side of this story. I bet the explanations are more reasonable than not and the primary intent isn’t to screw anyone. Creating a successful aviation business is hard enough, let alone trying to create one while running off customers.

It seems to me like there may be some unrealistic expectations on time to completion which prompted some impatience. The average hours to earn a private certificate these days is somewhere around 70 or 80 these days if I’m not mistaken? Learning in a large metro area where there are longer wait times for takeoff and practice areas that are farther away from the airport don’t help matters.

If I could make a suggestion it would be to take a little vacation and head somewhere out of town with the intent to finish the private training up and take a checkride. Yes it is an inconvenience and yes it will probably cost a bit more but the headaches will be minimal compared to what they would likely be if you keep trying to force the issue with the people you are currently trying to work with.

Also, complaining to the FSDO is unlikely to accomplish anything. They’re interested in things related to actual flying and airplanes, not poor business practices.
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True, but the CA Attorney General's office doesn't care that much about flying, but their Consumer Affairs Office might help. The BBB is a joke!
 
@Jamie Kirk I read another post about you getting a new Commander, and ended up here. How did all of this end up playing out? It seems you got it done, but what are the details?
 
BrianNC said:
@Jamie Kirk I read another post about you getting a new Commander, and ended up here. How did all of this end up playing out? It seems you got it done, but what are the details?
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Found a great CFI and he had me got me done in weeks in my own plane. Boy did I learn quick that the school teaches to pass their DPE only. Was also able to see the difference between a crappy school and one that truly knows what they are doing. Also found out they gave me the wrong endorsements for almost all my training . Had to redo a lot of it since the school wouldn’t take my calls and correct their mistake. School also let me solo without the correct endorsements.

Sent demand letter to school, they offered to refund my Checkride only. I won’t settle for just that, we’ll end up in small claims.

Since then I’ve flown over 100 hours already, multiple 300+nm trips. Start instrument training in October with CFI at new school.
 
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Sure am glad this got resolved... At least to the point of getting your ticket. I'm a "principle" guy. So, I think you should go after the previous "school." Unless of course these owners have big tattoos on their backs that spell out Yakuza, or wear pinstripe suits and have a few violin cases laying about.
 
Glad you got squared away. I experienced some "oddities" while getting my certificate, nothing to the degree that you did. Just reading this thread, reminds me that I tried to be knowledgeable of the process before and during my training. I was the student and learning how to fly, how CFI's worked, how DPE's worked, etc etc as I went. I would bet that goes for many of us. For instance, I really liked my flight school/club and still rent there and use them for WINGs, etc and I have options where I live. However, they had a very experienced CFI that they suggested I fly with to finish up (checkride prep since my instructor was out due to medical reasons). He was "interesting" and wasn't around long. If I had flown with him earlier, I would have quit or found another place to fly.

So, my point is there is more to getting a pp cert than just learning to fly and I think we all know that but sometimes gloss over that because it can be painful at times. The other thing I believe we should be more open about when discussing with potential or new students is that there is a degree of "art" to learning to fly vs being all "science". Anyway, to wrap on a positive, learning to fly is one of my proudest accomplishments and I know I am not alone in that feeling, especially on this board.
 
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