Should I?

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Mtns2Skies

Final Approach
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Mtns2Skies
Well now that my plane has (mostly) been restored (thread coming)... there's a neglected '63 Skywagon at a local airport. It has light hail damage, it's missing an inspection port on its tail and is full of dirt. The tires are off the rims and sinking into the ground. The interior surprisingly looks to be in good shape. By all accounts the plane has been sitting there untouched for 15-30 years, so this plane would need a FULL ground-up restoration.

It does have a float-kit so it's fully corrosion protected... but that can only go so far.

The catch is the owner seems to be a real piece of work. He's been sued a dozen times for failure to pay, or for fraud etc. I've not met him or spoken to him, this knowledge is just from sleuthing online and seeing public records. Also - my money is not unlimited, so this plane will be a backburner project while I get my '70 180 full back in shape. I would pull the wings and trailer it to an airport with cheap hangars and it would probably be sitting there for the next several years as I amass parts. I also toyed with the idea of making it a personal parts plane, but except for wings and empennage, surprisingly few parts are actually compatible with my 180.

So... is this worth pursuing and seeing if the owner would even talk about selling it, or is it best to just let the plane to its fate?
 
Buy it, fix it up, and then give it to me!

Seriously, might be worth the gamble, might not. If it were me, it wouldn’t be worth the headache. You’ve got a great (almost ready to fly) bird. Save the dough for the new Ranger.
 
It all comes down to how much complexity you want to add to your life.

As an analogue, homebuilders seem to fall into two categories. Those who like to build and those who want to fly. Large numbers of the former sell their projects not long after completion to raise the funds and make space for the next project.

This sounds somewhat similar. Do you own your current plane mostly to fly it, or do you find you prefer working on it and doing upgrades/improvements/restoring it? Or some of both?

Is the intent to build up a "Super Skywagon" that will outperform your current one? That might be one reason to buy another airframe and build it up over time with the intent to sell the first one.

Good luck with your deliberations!
 
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GRG55 said:
It all comes down to how much complexity you want to add to your life.

As an analogue, homebuilders seem to fall into two categories. Those who like to build and those who want to fly. Large numbers of the former sell their projects not long after completion to raise the funds and make space for the next project.
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The best (and sometimes worst) of both worlds is to have a flying aircraft and a project. As someone with a family, I can't just hang out at the airport in all of my spare time. I need to be around the house to do things with the family. What I can do is pick and choose to get in my flying days, but I'm able to participate in aviation in a hands on way almost every day by working on a project located in my garage or basement.
 
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Nope.... Nope....Nope.... Nope.... Nope....

Don't do it. You'll end up with more in it than it will ever be worth.
 
Unit74 said:
Nope.... Nope....Nope.... Nope.... Nope....

Don't do it. You'll end up with more in it than it will ever be worth.
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Sometimes there's more to life than money. Skywagons are soaring in value and I still have more into mine than it's worth, but the joy of improving it and flying it is more than worth it.

Now I have the knowledge to bring one back all learned from mine. But as mentioned before it certainly adds complexity to my life and it doesn't help the longevity of my plane either since the airframes are quite different. So much to consider.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Well now that my plane has (mostly) been restored (thread coming)... there's a neglected '63 Skywagon at a local airport. It has light hail damage, it's missing an inspection port on its tail and is full of dirt. The tires are off the rims and sinking into the ground. The interior surprisingly looks to be in good shape. By all accounts the plane has been sitting there untouched for 15-30 years, so this plane would need a FULL ground-up restoration.

It does have a float-kit so it's fully corrosion protected... but that can only go so far.

The catch is the owner seems to be a real piece of work. He's been sued a dozen times for failure to pay, or for fraud etc. I've not met him or spoken to him, this knowledge is just from sleuthing online and seeing public records. Also - my money is not unlimited, so this plane will be a backburner project while I get my '70 180 full back in shape. I would pull the wings and trailer it to an airport with cheap hangars and it would probably be sitting there for the next several years as I amass parts. I also toyed with the idea of making it a personal parts plane, but except for wings and empennage, surprisingly few parts are actually compatible with my 180.

So... is this worth pursuing and seeing if the owner would even talk about selling it, or is it best to just let the plane to its fate?
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Doesn't this all pretty much depend on what he wants for the plane?

He could think the motor is worth $40K and you think its worth $4K, he could think the avionics (outdated) are worth $5K and you will think they are worth 0, etc.

I think owning a Skywagon would be cool. Is there anything unique about a 1963 model that makes it more or less appealing than other Skywagons?
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Well now that my plane has (mostly) been restored (thread coming)... there's a neglected '63 Skywagon at a local airport. It has light hail damage, it's missing an inspection port on its tail and is full of dirt. The tires are off the rims and sinking into the ground. The interior surprisingly looks to be in good shape. By all accounts the plane has been sitting there untouched for 15-30 years, so this plane would need a FULL ground-up restoration.

It does have a float-kit so it's fully corrosion protected... but that can only go so far.

The catch is the owner seems to be a real piece of work. He's been sued a dozen times for failure to pay, or for fraud etc. I've not met him or spoken to him, this knowledge is just from sleuthing online and seeing public records. Also - my money is not unlimited, so this plane will be a backburner project while I get my '70 180 full back in shape. I would pull the wings and trailer it to an airport with cheap hangars and it would probably be sitting there for the next several years as I amass parts. I also toyed with the idea of making it a personal parts plane, but except for wings and empennage, surprisingly few parts are actually compatible with my 180.

So... is this worth pursuing and seeing if the owner would even talk about selling it, or is it best to just let the plane to its fate?
Click to expand...
Doesn't this all pretty much depend on what he wants for the plane?

He could think the motor is worth $40K and you think its worth $4K, he could think the avionics (outdated) are worth $5K and you will think they are worth 0, etc.

I think owning a Skywagon would be cool. Is there anything unique about a 1963 model that makes it more or less appealing than other Skywagons?
 
Sinistar said:
Doesn't this all pretty much depend on what he wants for the plane?

He could think the motor is worth $40K and you think its worth $4K, he could think the avionics (outdated) are worth $5K and you will think they are worth 0, etc.

I think owning a Skywagon would be cool. Is there anything unique about a 1963 model that makes it more or less appealing than other Skywagons?
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Yeah depending on what he wants this could all be a moot point, but I'm just asking to see if it's even worth pursuing at all? Im at square zero in this process.

This would be my second skywagon (no way in hell I'd ever sell my current one), nothing particularly special about a 63, just Midway through the evolution of them.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
So... is this worth pursuing and seeing if the owner would even talk about selling it, or is it best to just let the plane to its fate?
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no,Even when you have your A&P, You can't. the engine overhaul will cost more than the sky wagon is worth.
Add the other stuff to get the airframe restored . No it's just not worth it.. For the money, buy one now and go fly.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Yeah depending on what he wants this could all be a moot point, but I'm just asking to see if it's even worth pursuing at all? Im at square zero in this process.
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Whether it is worth pursuing from a purely financial standpoint is something you can do the math and figure out. My guess is your labor will be free.

However, there is a certain satisfaction you get from building or restoring an airplane. Beyond that, if you had this project to work on, there is an opportunity cost in both directions. When you're working on it, you're not spending money at bars or on strippers or whatever other activities you might participate in to burn through all of that excess cash. ;-) On the other hand, when you're working on it, you're not out doing the other things you enjoy - bars, strippers, whatever.
 
Is it worth it to see if the owner would sell? Yes. What is the cost of a conversation?

Is it worth buying and rebuilding? Don't know. That would depend on the seller's price, what all you find wrong with it, what it costs to fix all of that, and what you can sell it for if you go that route. It would definitely be a project if it has been sitting that long.
 
kyleb said:
Whether it is worth pursuing from a purely financial standpoint is something you can do the math and figure out. My guess is your labor will be free.

However, there is a certain satisfaction you get from building or restoring an airplane. Beyond that, if you had this project to work on, there is an opportunity cost in both directions. When you're working on it, you're not spending money on avgas, $200 burgers or whatever other upgrades on the existing Skywagon you might want to burn through all of that excess cash. ;-)...
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FTFY ;)
 
I know of 3 projects that were bought under these pretenses, all are still setting untouched, simply because the priority to work on them always is lower than something else to do. Some thing else always has a greater priority for the money.
 
Wait until far closer to the end of the year, when ADS-B is going to threaten this to a lawn-ornament even more than it does now.

Yes. Contact. Ask. Wait.... contact again.
 
You'll be dollars ahead buying your dream Skywagon that's already finished. Airplane restoration is expensive and most projects are financially upside down when they're completed. That is, you'll have more into it than it's worth. And metal airplanes require a skill set most owners don't possess, even the handier ones. Let the guy selling that dream
airplane take the hit.

PS, I've done it a couple of times so I'm not good at taking my own advice! But I do enjoy building airplanes, and that's worth something.
 
Rgbeard said:
Wait until far closer to the end of the year, when ADS-B is going to threaten this to a lawn-ornament even more than it does now.
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A lack of ADS-B will not have a significant effect on the value of a junk airplane. Nor will it on an airplane in otherwise excellent condition. I just delivered one in the latter category, it wasn’t even brought up in the terms of sale.

What it probably will do is cause the borderline airworthy airplanes that are for sale to sit longer before a sale is completed, or the owner will take enough heat from prospective buyers to lower the price.

In the grand scheme of airplane ownership ADS-B equipment is a small cost.

As far as the Skywagon goes, I’d just leave it alone. If the guy is as unsavory as it sounds like he might be it might be tough to get clear title.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
The catch is the owner seems to be a real piece of work. He's been sued a dozen times for failure to pay, or for fraud etc. I've not met him or spoken to him, this knowledge is just from sleuthing online and seeing public records.
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I wouldn't want to do business with someone like this...
 
It's amazing how miserable a difficult seller can make your life. I recently backed out of an airplane deal and told the seller he could keep the earnest money, which was more than we'd agreed on. He proceeded to sue me in a court 1000 miles away. For good measure, he put a lien on the airplane I actually bought, though he'd never seen it. I tested the limits of the AOPA Legal Services Plan, which weren't nearly what I wound up needing.

I'd pass on this one because of the seller, not because of the airplane. When you google someone and get a bunch of court records, you've got a lawyer, a crook, or both.
 
I love to fix mowers and other small engines. I do it for my neighbors in my spare time. Since I retired I have more spare time so I now volunteer at the local botanical gardens and work on their stuff. The point is, if you like doing that stuff then go for it. You may put it off for a while until you have the time and money but the fact that you are asking tells me you want to do it.
 
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