Tesla charging gets 2x faster

Yes today you'd get a tow, and AAA won't cover that since Tesla's need to be flat bed towed.

You can theoretically just rope-tow a Tesla and it will charge itself during the tow, but I don't think that's legal in the US. At least I've never seen that here.

I've honestly never seen the value of AAA. If you drive for 50 years you'll spend $5000 on AAA. How many times do you think your cars will break down in that time to justify $5000 of towing?? Can't imagine it's worth it.

Rope towing is legal here in Michigan as long as you have the rope marked with flags so nobody attempts to drive between the cars.


Also I just passed Model S A few minutes ago on the road I think it's the first one I've seen in the wild. You can have them. Looks like someone half squeezed a turd out of a toothpaste tube. The brown color it was painted didn't help.
 
I was just thinking about this...

Typically refueling time on a road trip for me is roughly 5-10 minutes. That includes fueling time, p'ing time and getting food/drink for the next leg.

Of course, most of that time is spent AFTER I get my fuel and move my car away from the pump. How much of an inconvenience would to be to spend an extra 5-10 minutes doing all of that on a recharge stop?

It's just something to make me go "hmmmm...."
 
Maybe they should pass some laws to slow down gas pumps and limit the size of gas tanks.
Don’t laugh. I’d bet you’ll see legislation like this proposed and maybe even passed in the next 5 years.

I think it already exists in some places... Massachusetts? And some stations just have sloooooooooow pumps. Those are even worse than waiting for a car to charge, because with the charging EV, you know how long it's going to take AND you don't have to stand there - You can just plug it in and go do something else. Eat, nap, sit in the car and play video games (yes, Teslas now have a bunch of classic video games available to play on the screen when you're stopped - You can even play Pole Position using the car's steering wheel! :D )

Getting much better. If they could get these tied to a good lunch spot or maybe a whole food court, then 15-30 minutes wouldn't seem so bad on a trip.

So, something like the Kettleman City Supercharger? (I believe that is supposed to get some food beyond the machines at some point.)

Although, if the distance gets far I fly.

Yep - That's where my mission of 200 miles in the dead of winter comes from. I'm probably gonna fly on longer trips than that.

For me it's more the $90k price tag that's a killer than the range; ok, $70-130k. Yeah, yeah, one can get a bare-bones model for $35k, but that's a much shorter range too, as well as lacking in many features.

The long range (325 mile) Model 3 with the premium interior starts at $47K, not $70K.
 
I was just thinking about this...

Typically refueling time on a road trip for me is roughly 5-10 minutes. That includes fueling time, p'ing time and getting food/drink for the next leg.

Of course, most of that time is spent AFTER I get my fuel and move my car away from the pump. How much of an inconvenience would to be to spend an extra 5-10 minutes doing all of that on a recharge stop?

It's just something to make me go "hmmmm...."

As others have said, depends on if youre waiting for a pump, also whats the cost and logistics of running all those high power out to every station?
 
Incentive?
Normally that translates to increased taxes and fines for not doing XYZ the way the goverment wants you to.

It’s like saying we give elephants a incentives to preform, well turns out that “incentive” is more like using force and abuse to get them to comply.

Frankly just let people and freemarket do it’s thing, if it’s worth anything folks will invest in it, why do you need to bring a gun into it?

Incentive is just letting the free market do its thing. TOU electricity simply costs different rates at different times of day, depending on supply vs. demand at the time.

No need to bring government into that. In fact, a time-of-use incentive (or off-peak incentive - same thing) is how things naturally would fall out UNLESS you regulate things.
 
Incentive is just letting the free market do its thing. TOU electricity simply costs different rates at different times of day, depending on supply vs. demand at the time.

No need to bring government into that. In fact, a time-of-use incentive (or off-peak incentive - same thing) is how things naturally would fall out UNLESS you regulate things.
In general the government just screws stuff up. Central control almost never works. It can’t respond fast enough to function.
 
You're right. But the increase in popularity that something like this might bring about also comes with the possibility of another interesting problem: having to wait in line for a charging station.

That's actually what they're trying to ameliorate by increasing their speed and ending the way they get shared, allowing them to churn many more cars through each spot at the supercharging stations. I think they realize that with their increased sales, simply adding locations isn't going to be enough - And while they will be adding many more locations, increasing speed is both faster and cheaper than building new ones.

It might be more technically feasible to just build a natural gas generating plant on-site, depending on where the nearest pipeline is. Or build a thorium-fueled nuclear plant there. But neither of those options are likely to be politically viable.

If you're Tesla, and you make solar panels and utility-scale storage batteries, you use both of those - And the batteries are more important, because they allow a constant load from the utility to be "peaked" to the cars. So, say you're putting 50 kWh each into 100 cars/day, you can keep the station's batteries charged with about a 210 kW constant feed, and then the cars can each get their 250 kW whenever they happened to show up.

Same speed as it does at the Corner Gas Station.

You have a gas pump in your garage? o_O:rolleyes:

Folks with a garage or a house would simply "gas up" at home overnight. Folks with an apartment would have to gas up at work, a grocery store, a restaurant, or some other location, or maybe their apartment complex would have chargers in the parking lot and each resident would get a keycard or something to ration their time at the charger so others could use it. Folks in the city that park on the street would have to come up with some other way to charge, especially if they only drive a couple times a month. Maybe a "mobil charging service" could bring a truck around and charge up for you?

This is where workplace charging is good - The cars are going to be there for a long time anyway.

Another thing that they already have in places like Norway that are much farther ahead of the curve than we are is chargers on all the light poles so that they can charge in on-street parking.

Highway gas stations would need a lot of chargers, like large truck stops have lots of pumps, plus some place for the humans to wait for charging to complete. I can see something like getting a text when your charge is complete, then having a certain amount of time to move your vehicle or you pay extra for every minute you tie up the charger.

That's actually exactly how the Tesla Superchargers already work.

I think one of the background themes around the whole autopilot thing is that people would be able to send the car away to charge and have it come back when they need it.

Yep... And while that would require valets today, Tesla has clearly been thinking about how to autonomously get the plug into the car:


Actually I just realized one thing I saw in Japan but didn't really register, there are a ton of tiny car rental places in the higher density areas. Don't need a car regularly so you just walk down the block and rent one when you do, saves on parking and everything.

That exists here to a limited extent, in the form of ZipCar and some other similar services. It really is a good idea, but because of how our country is constructed, it's pretty difficult to not have your own car, so most people just go ahead and deal with owning their own rather than use this sort of service, so they seem to grow a bit slowly. (Change is hard, too.)

I have absolutely no problem with anyone wanting an electric or hybrid car. If that's what you want, knock yourself out. But we are a long ways off from every car being an electric car.

Yep. I would guess 2035 for 50% penetration, and 2050 for 90%. It'll never be 100%, and really I hope it stops at 95% or something where gas stations are still somewhat viable, because it would be a shame if it wasn't possible to fuel the classic cars any more.

My question, I have a fast charger for my cell phone, but if I use the usual speed charger the charge will last longer. Is this the same for charging electric cars? Will the charge last the same time, distance if the normal charge is used compared to the speed charger?

All batteries (whether in a car or something else) taper off their charging speed as they approach fully charged. The faster you're charging, the earlier the taper starts. When charging a car at home, the taper doesn't happen until right at the end, as seen on the graph from my home charger below. When Supercharging, the taper starts around (or even before) 80%, so by the end of the charge, the "fast" charge is as slow as your home charger. So, it makes the most sense, when on a road trip, to charge to 80% (or even less, if your destination or the next fast charger you want to stop at is closer by). But, if you do charge to 100% you'll get as much range out of it as if you charged to 100% at home.

Sorry if I missed it, but what is the cost of these new Super Chargers?

For those who are grandfathered into free supercharging... Still free. And since the amount of energy being transferred is the same, I would expect the prices for everyone else will remain the same.

Presumably today you'd get a tow. I'd expect at some future point they'd add a PTO and on-board generator to tow trucks to be able to give a few miles of range. Or maybe dedicated remote power vehicles for the electrics.

I think I read where someone already had a truck that could "rescue" electric cars, but I can't remember where it was located.

Germany had a green plan, solar and wind and all, didn’t turn out too hot

Oh? Because what showed up on my news feed today is that Germany is getting ready to power down the rest of its coal plants. Of course, when Googling about it, there were plenty of articles talking about Germany's success with renewable energy, and plenty of other articles talking about their failure with renewable energy. So, there's someone to feed your confirmation bias either way!
 

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Gee. I thought the solution to charging was swapping the batteries out. You know, where you trade in the most expensive part of your car for another one that’s been treated god knows how......

Two years ago it was the solution to end all the charging time debate. We were told we were fools for pointing out the plans flaws. Now it’s quietly just not talked about anymore.

Now we’re back to fighting the physical limitations of shoving electrons into a chemical soup. But hey, this time it’s even more “almost as good” as what we already have. It’s even more easy to pretend it doesn’t matter because we’re getting older and can’t hold our bladders through a fill up anyway.
 
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Gee. I thought the solution to charging was swapping the batteries out. You know, where you trade in the most expensive part of your car for another one that’s been treated god knows how......

Last year it was the solution to end all the charging time debate.

More like several years ago. Tesla shut down their battery swap station over two years ago... And the only reason it really existed in the first place was that the manufacturers such as Toyota who had put all their money into fuel cell vehicles lobbied CARB to make a vehicle not count as renewable powered unless you could fully charge it in 5 minutes, not realizing that Tesla was able to do a complete battery swap in 90 seconds. :rofl:
 
Gee. I thought the solution to charging was swapping the batteries out. You know, where you trade in the most expensive part of your car for another one that’s been treated god knows how......

Two years ago it was the solution to end all the charging time debate. We were told we were fools for pointing out the plans flaws. Now it’s quietly just not talked about anymore.

Now we’re back to fighting the physical limitations of shoving electrons into a chemical soup.

Battery swap is a 2013 thing - it got shut down in 2016. Got to get with the program!
 
Yep... And while that would require valets today, Tesla has clearly been thinking about how to autonomously get the plug into the car:

If they can get the efficiency up enough and since most of this would be at night so you don't need super fast charging I'd think they would think about inductive/wireless charging. I seem to recall an electric bus plan that had giant charging mats at a few places along their route to give them a boost when they stopped. Ahh, here it is https://www.momentumdynamics.com/
 
I've watched the EV discussions here with a lot of interest. I don't own an EV and likely won't soon, but I have no doubt they are the future. It will be a short future in my mind since they will be replaced by autonomous EVs very quickly. I drive a lot, the nearest McD is about 12 miles each way and we go almost every day for breakfast. Last night we drove ~50 miles each way for dinner. Yep I live in the country. I haven't yet seen an EV that could go where my wife drives her Jeep Grand Cherokee or one that can tow my flatbed trailer with the skid steer loader on it.

But I have no doubt they are coming and will shortly be replaced with autonomous versions. The economics are overwhelming, and if you think Google is investing to reduce carbon... I have a deal on a bridge. Just think, your every trip will be in a data base. You think you get targeted ads now? Rob a bank? The police will reroute your getaway car remotely. There is no way this is not going to happen, but the when is not yet clear.

Green benefit? Eventually, but electric cars are being recharged now with coal, natural gas, and nuclear for the most part. Renewable is maybe a third in the most advanced states

FWIW the co-op delivers ethanol free gas and the electric (solar driven there is no electricity where I put the tank) pump does 8gal/minute, so there is no real benefit to home charging either (full disclosure I don't fuel the OTR vehicles there normally).
 
And that sounds about right - Tesloop (Tesla taxi service between Vegas and LA) had their batteries replaced at 196'000 miles by using very incorrect supercharging patterns. They supercharged every day, charged to 100% each time, and left the car overnight at 100% in high heat areas.

As a data point, our Honda Clarity has built-in "buffers" at both the high and low-end range of charge. I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but when it says 100% charge, you're enough short of that to ensure longevity. Similarly, when it say 0 range remaining on the battery, there is still a basement level that it never dips into, knowing that complete discharge is death for a lithium ion battery.

It would really surprise me if Tesla had not thought of this and designed in similar "buffers".
 
If they can get the efficiency up enough and since most of this would be at night so you don't need super fast charging I'd think they would think about inductive/wireless charging. I seem to recall an electric bus plan that had giant charging mats at a few places along their route to give them a boost when they stopped. Ahh, here it is https://www.momentumdynamics.com/

Tesla had the mini electric bus with charging at stops in their "secret master plan 2" when it first came out, but has since dropped that part.

The problem with the inductive/wireless charging is that you *always* have an efficiency loss, and it's very sensitive to the position you park in. Now, auto-park could be programmed to perfectly center it, but I think they would still be concerned about the efficiency loss, because they do have the capability of using a LOT of power, in some cases pushing the limits of the installed infrastructure at the facility, and I'm sure they'd rather as much as possible be delivered to the cars.

Green benefit? Eventually, but electric cars are being recharged now with coal, natural gas, and nuclear for the most part. Renewable is maybe a third in the most advanced states

Yet, because electric motors are so much more efficient than internal combustion engines (~90% vs. ~30%), electric cars are cleaner even if the power comes completely from coal. (Not by much, in that case, but still comes out ahead).

It's also a lot easier to upgrade one power plant with better emission controls than the 100,000 cars that might be using that power plant to charge.

As a data point, our Honda Clarity has built-in "buffers" at both the high and low-end range of charge. I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but when it says 100% charge, you're enough short of that to ensure longevity. Similarly, when it say 0 range remaining on the battery, there is still a basement level that it never dips into, knowing that complete discharge is death for a lithium ion battery.

It would really surprise me if Tesla had not thought of this and designed in similar "buffers".

Everybody has those buffers. They're not all the same size, but the only way to really harm your battery is to do something like run it out and then leave your car parked at the airport unplugged for a month, because the inherent self-discharge will take it down further and possibly into the danger zone.

It really is all over the map, though. My Fusion Energi had a 7.6kWh battery, and used about 6.0 kWh out of it (79%). The Volt, OTOH, uses only 10.8 kWh of its 16.5 kWh capacity (65%). The Energi also used an air-cooled battery while the Volt has a fairly sophisticated battery management system. Because of that, Volt batteries tend to last much longer.

Tesla, of course, has been tuning and tweaking their batteries for about 15 years now (starting with the Roadster, continuing through the Toyota Rav4 EV, and on to the cars they've built themselvs - S3X), so they have a pretty good idea of where the limits are and what hurts batteries.
 
He just asked how fast it filled a car not my car.

My grandpa did have a gas pump at his place however.
 
I've honestly never seen the value of AAA. If you drive for 50 years you'll spend $5000 on AAA. How many times do you think your cars will break down in that time to justify $5000 of towing?? Can't imagine it's worth it.

The DMV services alone (i.e., not having to go to an actual DMV) are worth the price of admission. Everything else is just a bonus.
 
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