sailboats

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
do sailboats labor under the same syndrome as aircraft?
the longer it sets the more cash they can suck up?

I have been watching this boat for several years, it has now degenerated to a price I can afford.

Price Reduced, Ingrid 38 Bluewater Cutter rig sailboat

advice ? should I buy it? or run like hell?
 
There is ongoing maintenance that has to be done, especially on a wood hull like that. Add in the engine issues. Definitely get a good inspection at the least. Couldn't speak on the value
 
Bill Jennings said:
Marine survey.
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Bill is right. A marine survey is the nautical equivalent of a prebuy inspection. Same rules apply: be very skeptical of the current owner’s surveyor, and network among trusted friends to find a good one.

-Skip
 
midwestpa24 said:
There is ongoing maintenance that has to be done, especially on a wood hull like that. Add in the engine issues. Definitely get a good inspection at the least. Couldn't speak on the value
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I'm not familiar with there make, but the ad says it was hand laid up fiberglass. A wood hull is very labor intensive; a fiberglass hull is much more maintenance friendly.
 
Brad Z said:
I'm not familiar with there make, but the ad says it was hand laid up fiberglass. A wood hull is very labor intensive; a fiberglass hull is much more maintenance friendly.
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I guess I didn't look close enough. It's lines reminded me of a wood boat.
 
Tom-D said:
do sailboats labor under the same syndrome as aircraft?
the longer it sets the more cash they can suck up?

I have been watching this boat for several years, it has now degenerated to a price I can afford.

Price Reduced, Ingrid 38 Bluewater Cutter rig sailboat

advice ? should I buy it? or run like hell?
Click to expand...

Not nearly so sensitive as an airplane. Boats are built much more heavily than are airplanes, and most of what's important is out in the open air where you can see it. You already know the engine needs replacing, so price it accordingly. There's no guarantee that the engine he's including will fit in that boat, and it's unsupported by its manufacturer anyway. Farymann is still in business and you may be able to repair the one that's in the boat. You'd want to get someone who knows what he's doing to examine the hull structure, rigging, and spars, and figure out the engine situation.
 
Yes, sailboats are still very much Break Out Another Thousand.

Yes, all boats suffer badly in storage. They are rarely stored in ways that humidity is not a problem. Usually the exhaust systems are not just cooled with a water jacket, but once you get past the headers, that cooling water is dumped into the exhaust pipe, and usually goes through a water lock that serves as a muffler, and never fully drains. So usually you have some exhaust valves open to a pipe with a pool of water in it, with the commensurate corrosion risks.

On many boats the standing rigging has a designed 15 year life span. No telling when this one was last rerigged, or at least not that I see in the listing. Especially on bluewater use, you may not be able to affordably insure the boat once the rigging is past 15 years until you spend a few AMU replacing it.

Two year old bottom paint, in many climates is to the point where it probably needs scraped or scrubbed every few weeks, but not too aggressively, to not shorten the life. In many places, the bottom coat is about a 5 year lifecycle.

A marine survey is usually going to be the best way to get an idea where you are starting from.
 
"Ingrid" is a heavy displacement full keel oceangoing Billy Atkin designed double-ended cruising boat. The Bluewater built Ingrids have fiberglass hulls.

In the early seventies I bought a "sailaway" kit Westsail 32 which I completed (interior, standing and running rigging, Volvo-Penta diesel engine installation) over a three year period working on it most weekends. The Westsail 32 is a fiberglass hulled Billy Atkin "Eric" design, very similar to Ingrid but slightly smaller.

These boats are blue water cruisers, but because of the full keels they don't sail very well close to the wind and because of the heavy displacement (displacement to length ratio of around 400), they're not racing boats. They have slack bilges so they're a bit tender, and lack buoyancy in the stern so they can get pooped in a following sea.

I loved the Westsail, but you need to be realistic about the performance of a 120 year old heavy displacement design. I strongly second the recommendation to pay a marine surveyor to inspect the boat if you're serious about buying it.

Ingrid: http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/Ingrid.html
Eric: http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/Eric.html

My Westsail at anchor in the Sacramento Delta in the late seventies.

Lief%20in%20the%20Delta%20LoRes_zpsc9x4dazj.jpg
 
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Depends on what you are looking for. Know that this hull design is not fast. You can find out on-line its theoretical max hull speed which I would guess to be probably in the neighbor of 6.5 knots or so, and your typical cruising speed will be in the range of 4-4.5 knots. However, these are very stable boats and are “sea kindly” meaning they take blue water well and will not wallow or broach easily. And this design and designer is well known and these boats are as safe as a sailboat can be.

At this price, you could decide to dispense with a marine survey or do your own. You want to pay attention to deck delamination, delamination around the chain plates and where the mast enters the hull. If this has a cored deck, you want to make sure no water has entered the deck. Most cored decks of this vintage have end-grain balsa and water infiltration mean a soggy, spongy deck. Surveyors use a hammer and tap around the deck looking for hollow spots or voids. Decks can be repaired - just takes time and $$. You also want someone to look at the standing rigging (typically stainless steel) for cracks and corrosion. Losing a backstay or a forestay is not good and can result in a demasting. You also want someone to evaluate the sails. Sails can be expensive to replace but unless completely blown out, can be rehabilitated at not to bad of a price. There are a number of lofts on your side the the state so getting someone to take a look at them wouldn’t be too hard. Take a look at the keel and keel bolts, again water infiltration can be a big issue. A bad keel is a walk away. Winches, through hauls, electrical and plumbing all should be looked at unless you plan to replace it all. Personally, I wouldn’t own a sailboat without 2 speed self-tailing winches for the Genoa, with all lines led aft, clutches and adjustable traveler and Genoa tracks. But that’s cuz I don’t like to work too hard when I sail.

If you really want a project boat, this seems to have good bones. Buy it, put on the hard in a marina that lets you do work and have at it.
 
midwestpa24 said:
There is ongoing maintenance that has to be done, especially on a wood hull like that. Add in the engine issues. Definitely get a good inspection at the least. Couldn't speak on the value
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It's a totally Fiber glass hull.
 
To add a few thoughts.
We need a sturdy roomy boat for the Puget Sound and south east Ak. very seldom off coast.
A while back, I horse traded a marine adapted Kobota diesel with in out box (F-N-R) attached runs great, with fresh water cooling. I was thinking that would fix any engine needs.
I've watched this boat on a couple places, he started out at $175,000 , 3 years ago he's down to 29k I have a gut feeling that is what he owes on it.
My worries are
How to get it from south coast of Or. to Oak Harbor.
Hull condition, I have several friends that could inspect it for me, but getting them to the boat?
Believe the radio/nav equipment are old stuff.

Thanks for your advice.
 
Jumpmaster said:
Buy it, put on the hard in a marina that lets you do work and have at it.
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That's really what I don't want to do.
I don't mind a bit of sanding, painting, and preventive maintenance but no major stuff, other than changing an engine if I must.
 
Didn’t know planes fell apart from “sitting”

That boat doesn’t exactly look neglected
 
BOAT:
Dictionary result for boat
/bəʊt/
noun
  1. a small vessel for travelling over water, propelled by oars, sails, or an engine.
    "a fishing boat"
  2. a serving dish in the shape of a boat. "a gravy boat"
  3. a hole in the water into which one throws money. "my boat"

I learned to sail in the waters around where you live Tom. Dinghy sailing on the lakes as a teen in the 60's and keel boats on the salt later on. Club raced a very fast J-24 for a few years in the 1990s. One of my brothers, who works in Seattle, has been trying to convince me to partner with him in a Bavaria center cockpit that has also apparently been languishing in a marina.

Between the San Juan's, the B.C. Gulf Islands, Desolation Sound and the inland passage north, you live in some of the finest sailing waters anywhere in the world. Whatever boat you choose make sure its rigging is up to Pacific NW standards. Some of the boats rigged for Florida and the Caribbean that they sell up there are useless (dangerous imo) in a moderate blow up where you are.

Get a boat that points well. You'll appreciate its abilities in the lighter winds that prevail in your region during July and August.
 
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Maybe this is common knowledge and Im the oddball out in not knowing this for a long time, but a sailboat is like an airplane turned 90 degrees of roll. The sail is more of a wing than a wind catcher and the keel too is like a wing, but small due to waters density... At least thats what a friend that sails told me...
 
Huckster79 said:
Maybe this is common knowledge and Im the oddball out in not knowing this for a long time, but a sailboat is like an airplane turned 90 degrees of roll. The sail is more of a wing than a wind catcher and the keel too is like a wing, but small due to waters density... At least thats what a friend that sails told me...
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Yup. I used to be quite surprised at the number of pilots that sail and vice-versa. Even our own @Everskyward took up sailing after she retired from flying professionally.
 
Huckster79 said:
Maybe this is common knowledge and Im the oddball out in not knowing this for a long time, but a sailboat is like an airplane turned 90 degrees of roll. The sail is more of a wing than a wind catcher and the keel too is like a wing, but small due to waters density... At least thats what a friend that sails told me...
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Very much so. And with faster sailboats like catamarans, you really get into the differences between angle of attack of the wind, as opposed to angle of attack of the combination of wind and boat speed, much like how rate of climb affects pitch vs angle of attack.
 
Tom-D said:
That's really what I don't want to do.
I don't mind a bit of sanding, painting, and preventive maintenance but no major stuff, other than changing an engine if I must.
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Like a 79 plane, it will need some constant maintenance, also all mechanical devices like to be used but not abused. I would get a real marine survey, not a friend to just look at it.
Expensive items are:
Hull integrity, checking for moisture & blistering. Don’t forget the rudder.
Engine, shaft, prop.
Rigging & spars.

Radios and navigation equipment are relatively cheap, especially compared with aviation.


Tom
 
Another famous (infamous?) line:

"Sailing is like standing in a cold shower tearing up hundred dollar bills."
 
Tom-D said:
...My worries are
How to get it from south coast of Or. to Oak Harbor.
Hull condition, I have several friends that could inspect it for me, but getting them to the boat?
Believe the radio/nav equipment are old stuff.

Thanks for your advice.
Click to expand...

Tom, there's all sorts of folks around your parts that can re-position a boat for you. They will need to be well offshore along the west coast until they come around Cape Flattery and into the strait.
 
Boats are only expensive if you don’t use them. Like airplanes, they get cheaper (per hour) the more you use them. And you can live on a boat, you can’t sail a house.


Tom
 
Probably a great first boat and easy to learn and work on systems...I am around boats and grew up sailing Dingy’s to IOR boats and put my self through school working for a sail loft...in 2018 in a couple of trips sailing trips from St Thomas to Atlantic City and NYC to Burmuda some 2300 kt miles of open ocean...on a 50 Lagoon, but unlike a modern big catamaran this boat is slow, but predictable...and sweat equity would make her very nice find at that price and condition even if the pics are two years old...I have recently gone to the dark side though and have a Henriques Sportfisherman
 
Tom-D said:
That's really what I don't want to do.
I don't mind a bit of sanding, painting, and preventive maintenance but no major stuff, other than changing an engine if I must.
Click to expand...

Some marinas will let you do work in a slip - others won’t at all or only on a limited basis. You need to check around. The Puget Sound area is becoming increasingly sensitive to water pollution issues given the state of the orcas and other species, and that includes sanding of top coats, whether paint or varnish. And if you are going to replace the engine, either with the one you have or the one the seller has, chances are you will need to pull the shaft and you don’t do that in the water. If it were me, I would run the existing diesel until it becomes unreliable and then consider a change out.

Good luck. And if you proceed and hire a ferry captain, sail along with. Good opportunity to learn the boat and it’s systems.
 
The two happiest days in a boat owner's life, the day you buy it and then the day that you sell it. That looks like a nice boat, you should be able to handle the engine issues, just don't forget the carrying costs and maintenance costs. It's all expensive.
 
Jumpmaster said:
Some marinas will let you do work in a slip - others won’t at all or only on a limited basis. You need to check around. The Puget Sound area is becoming increasingly sensitive to water pollution issues given the state of the orcas and other species, and that includes sanding of top coats, whether paint or varnish. And if you are going to replace the engine, either with the one you have or the one the seller has, chances are you will need to pull the shaft and you don’t do that in the water. If it were me, I would run the existing diesel until it becomes unreliable and then consider a change out.

Good luck. And if you proceed and hire a ferry captain, sail along with. Good opportunity to learn the boat and it’s systems.
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We know about pollution and working in the marinas, we have a great one at Oak Harbor.

I was thinking about running the engine as far as it would go.
 
Looks like a nice boat, and I thing you could pro bally get it for $20K... Had an Irwin 41 once, glad to have sold it... nowadays, this is how I spend my H2O time

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Ventucky Red said:
Looks like a nice boat, and I thing you could pro bally get it for $20K... Had an Irwin 41 once, glad to have sold it... nowadays, this is how I spend my H2O time

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Nacra 5.8 & 6.0 are awesome boats, and a ton of fun. My 5.5 was a blast. I miss sailing it, but not sure if I'll ever find time again.
 
Thanks everyone for all the advice. It will be the end of February before I can go see it
So until then, we will dream. :)
 
Westerbeke is a good engine, we had one in our Luder's 44 Yawl. Sailed in the Bermuda to Newport race in '76 as well as in the Parade of Sail in NY harbor on July 4th of that year. That said, that was 40+ years ago and I have been only sailing dingys and Cats whenever I get a chance since then.
 
The WEST System (Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique) product line of marine grade epoxy resins were developed by the Gougeon Brothers, Meade and Jan, in cooperation with Dow Chemicals in the late sixties and early seventies. I have used the WEST System products in a variety of applications since 1972, and following their instructions have never experienced any failures. There's a WEST product for every conceivable application, and picking the right product for any given application is important. My $.02.

https://www.westsystem.com/gbi-history/
 
epoxy and glue ain't equal.....:confused:


Tom needs something with urea in it.
 
Nice looking boat. I agree with what everyone else has said. I would go look at it myself, maybe take along a more experienced person. After a close look in the water and maybe a short sail, then deiced if i wanted it hauled for a full survey.

DO you have a local place (marina or storage yard) you can store it and work on it yourself? If so doing some maintenance/re-power would be reasonable. If you have to pay for re-power, hull scrape/repaint, etc it will very quickly get very expensive. Marinas seem to be trying to catch FBO and aircraft maintenance shops in how much they bill.
 
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