Saratoga best for my flying?

Clip4 said:
When would you need room in the rear seating for men that will never be placed in those seats? When you are marketing airplanes.
Click to expand...

Given the number of airplanes they were selling then, compared to the number they are selling now, I would say their marketing must have been pretty effective. ;)
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
FWIW.....in 4-5 years, if not now, those kids will not want their legs touching.....that's where standard seating shines. Also, you'll get more use out of the space behind the pilot's seats with the standard arrangement.

something to think about.....;)

here are some pics of my trip to OSH a few years ago...I was a PAX in the back of a Lance. ;)
Click to expand...

I have a true 6-seater without the club seating. Works really well, and an example of one of my trips included 5 adult males and an 11-year old boy on a 2400 nm round trip to OSH. Typical legs were 3.5 to 4.25 hours. I also often have the RH middle row seat out of the airplane if I don't need 6 places. That facilitates access to the other 3 seats in back and provided lots of space for stuff behind the right front seat.

The benefit of the A36 and Cherokee 6 derivatives is when you have passengers (such as elderly parents) that have difficulty dealing with an overwing entrance. Those doors behind the wing are appreciated. But in that circumstance one really should have a close look at a 210, or a Skymaster twin.
 
GRG55 said:
The benefit of the A36 and Cherokee 6 derivatives is when you have passengers (such as elderly parents) that have difficulty dealing with an overwing entrance. Those doors behind the wing are appreciated. But in that circumstance one really should have a close look at a 210, or a Skymaster twin.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if you're saying a 210 is easier to get into and out of or just worth considering for other reasons, but as a 205 (210) owner, I actually think it's probably the hardest to get in and out of - while it is high wing, it's kind of a crawl into the middle seats and the rear door on the pilot side is huge for a baggage door but small for a passenger door.
 
In case you've missed it....I owned a PA-32-260 for almost ten years. ;)

the front baggage was packed....and we were at gross weight for that trip.
arkvet said:
And Fwiw I absolutely love the club seating in my Toga. Kids have more room and stretch out nicely. On more than one occasion I’ve added another adult to our load and had 3 adults and 3 kids (ages 7, 10, 13) in the plane. Stuffed to the gills with beach supplies in the front and rear cargo.

All smiles for the 2.5 hour trip to the beach.

I think there are folks that frown on the club seating... that don’t have club seating. But agree it’s probably not for everyone.

Checkout - how much stuff did you take with you? The front and rear cargo are very generous.
Click to expand...
 
932734FE-1098-4D9B-A474-D85EF946F81F.jpeg2CA9156B-CE84-4AE2-A354-7DDF7AC605A4.jpeg
Checkout_my_Six said:
In case you've missed it....I owned a PA-32-260 for almost ten years. ;)

the front baggage was packed....and we were at gross weight for that trip.
Click to expand...

Oh yes I knew that. I just noted you had Lots of baggage!

My wife was griping about the August heat while we were on the ground. I told her it would be pretty cool when we climbed to altitude. She rolled her eyes. I delayed turning on the heat just to prove it.

For 4 adults the club seating seems like a limo.
 
My toga panel.
02d727c4e1bf20c9d5e1977902b1d9d7.jpg
4da523f49326c922a8a0c45b7410c6ac.jpg


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
Seminole Pilot said:
Wow, that's a sweet looking panel and plane. Did you complete the makeover of the panel or did you buy it like that? That's a very clean looking setup! What year is your Toga?
Click to expand...
This is an 82 the was redone 5 or 6 years ago. It was purchased through a refurbishing outfit and we worked with them on colors and panel layout, as they had started the job, but it was only partially done when the decision was made to purchase.

A few changes were made since then. A G530 was swapped out for the G650. The JPI 830 was also added and a much older EI unit that was by the pilots left knee was removed. The wing tip lights were replaced with full LED units. The ELT was updated to a GPS enabled 406 model.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
I'm not a fan of club seating - And no, I haven't owned a plane with it but I've flown a couple - and it seems like the pilot seats are always way too upright and can't be reclined because of the seat behind them.

Also, people make a big deal out of insurance and maintenance costs for retracts, but because the plane is faster, I've found that the cost per mile is actually slightly less on the retracts, as long as you fly enough hours per year to justify owning an airplane in the first place. Especially with Piper's relatively simple and bulletproof gear systems.
 
When I was shopping, I subscribed to Aviation Consumer and read their reviews on planes. Most are outdated info in regards to price, but I do like the other information. Once you subscribe, you can use the website to search for reviews and owner information. The search sucked last time I used it, but you can figure it out pretty quick.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I'm not a fan of club seating - And no, I haven't owned a plane with it but I've flown a couple - and it seems like the pilot seats are always way too upright and can't be reclined because of the seat behind them.

Also, people make a big deal out of insurance and maintenance costs for retracts, but because the plane is faster, I've found that the cost per mile is actually slightly less on the retracts, as long as you fly enough hours per year to justify owning an airplane in the first place. Especially with Piper's relatively simple and bulletproof gear systems.
Click to expand...

But the big cost on the retracts is when you forget about putting the gear down. Conversely, if you've been trying to sell the plane for 2 years or so, you can always 'forget' to put the gear down and let the insurance buy the plane off you.
 
Seminole Pilot said:
For any of you current owners of Saratoga's, thoughts about this one I ran across? Seems pretty low hours since overhaul and descent updated avionics panel. The only thing that I wasn't really looking for was the turbo engine which I assume would be a higher maintenance cost? You all have surpassed my expectations of responses here so far!

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/30206013/1980-piper-t-saratoga-sp
Click to expand...

Looks like a nice bird!
Downside is the fish mouth cowl. You’ll need to feed it 1-2gph more to keep the cylinders happy. Not a huge deal. Switching to the turbo plus cowling is going to cost you 20-30k.

Low engine time is good. If I were going to buy it I’d interview the seller about his operating parameters. A ham fisted Pilot can fry the cylinders easily with a turbo.

I love my turbo, but I live in high altitude mountainous terrain. It’ll take more fuel than the normally aspirated (we plan 20GPH average since it burns 35GPH in the climb).

EDIT:
I’ll add that fully loaded (4 adults, 2 kids, baggage, 2 puppies) and DA 6000+ we can still get 500+ FPM. Great family flyer.
 
Last edited:
Heftiger said:
Looks like a nice bird!
Downside is the fish mouth cowl. You’ll need to feed it 1-2gph more to keep the cylinders happy. Not a huge deal. Switching to the turbo plus cowling is going to cost you 20-30k.

Low engine time is good. If I were going to buy it I’d interview the seller about his operating parameters. A ham fisted Pilot can fry the cylinders easily with a turbo.

I love my turbo, but I live in high altitude mountainous terrain. It’ll take more fuel than the normally aspirated (we plan 20GPH average since it burns 35GPH in the climb).

EDIT:
I’ll add that fully loaded (4 adults, 2 kids, baggage, 2 puppies) and DA 6000+ we can still get 500+ FPM. Great family flyer.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by switching to turbo & cowling will cost 20-30K, is this regarding at overhaul time?

Appreciate the other info though! I know it's just an add and sales pitch to an extent, but it's nice to hear previous owner supposedly kept up plane with open checkbook. Obviously I'll have to dig deeper to validate everything.
 
"Turbo Plus" makes a cowling and intercooler kit that costs that much, for those that can't manage the original design.

I fly the original design and have no issues. (And I fly in the desert Southwest). Others swear they can't keep it cool enough, and spend this amount to have a cooler-operating engine.
 
Seminole Pilot said:
What do you mean by switching to turbo & cowling will cost 20-30K, is this regarding at overhaul time?

Appreciate the other info though! I know it's just an add and sales pitch to an extent, but it's nice to hear previous owner supposedly kept up plane with open checkbook. Obviously I'll have to dig deeper to validate everything.
Click to expand...

He means Piper boned it up and used a wonky updraft cooling cowl that didn't deliver as promised at high power settings. As a result people like TurboPLus offer these insanely priced cowl replacements which offer a more conventional cooling flow. The religious argument over the fish mouth thence ensues...

My understanding was there was a kit for installation of additional louvers on the fish mouth cowl that generally ameliorated the issue without the need for going the gold plated new cowl route, but I stopped looking at turbos a while ago so don't quote me on that. No dog in the fight, if a turbo owner says he doesn't have issues with the fish mouth, then I have no reason not to believe him. Do understand the cooling design of the fish mouth is objectively different, and I am inclined to believe it would have trouble cooling at high power.

Perhaps an intercooler would be a cheaper route than a new cowl. You know you've left the cheap mx airplane land when you refer to intercoolers as the "cheap" alternative to a mx solution. LOL
 
Seminole Pilot said:
For any of you current owners of Saratoga's, thoughts about this one I ran across? Seems pretty low hours since overhaul and descent updated avionics panel. The only thing that I wasn't really looking for was the turbo engine which I assume would be a higher maintenance cost? You all have surpassed my expectations of responses here so far!

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/30206013/1980-piper-t-saratoga-sp
Click to expand...
Looks nice. The A/C will reduce your useful load.

I have a 1980 Turbo Toga. We plan on 19 GPH on all travels. The 1980 models have a problem with air flow and cooling the engine. Heftier was referring to an STC change to the cowling of the plane that is supposed fix that problem. I have not switch but I watch the cylinders temp like a hawk!!! I can only run 65% power ROP. If I go 75% the turbo over heats.
 
Scott@KTYR said:
Looks nice. The A/C will reduce your useful load.

I have a 1980 Turbo Toga. We plan on 19 GPH on all travels. The 1980 models have a problem with air flow and cooling the engine. Heftier was referring to an STC change to the cowling of the plane that is supposed fix that problem. I have not switch but I watch the cylinders temp like a hawk!!! I can only run 65% power ROP. If I go 75% the turbo over heats.
Click to expand...

Thanks as that is valuable information. I'm just in the beginning stages of exploring options so good to hear this info from 1st hand owners. I assume if it's NA the cooling issue does not exist?
 
Rgbeard said:
In any case, coming from a Seminole, you'll appreciate the added cabin size, along with the care and feeding only one engine.
Click to expand...

Guess I need to update my name, the Seminole isn't due to having that plane, I actually fly at 182 now. The Seminole is related to being a big Florida State Seminoles fan.
 
Seminole Pilot said:
Guess I wasn't thinking when I registered and signed up on the site the other day...I at least just updated my signature to note what I'm currently flying.

Sorry about that.
Click to expand...

Nah don't apologize, this place is a clown show most of the time. (aka: lot of big shoes, little feet....if you catch my drift). It's also difficult to note sarcasm on here without the /sarc tag.
 
Rgbeard said:
With the limitations of the A/C, and cost of R-12, it's a valid option to have the compressor removed, and take the weight away.
Click to expand...
My compressor was replaced with r 134 unit that uses standard auto freon. I can go the the auto store and by the standard refill cans and use the standard fitting.

Additionally, if you use AC in flight you lose 3 or 4 knots speed with the older systems as there is a cooling door that opens from the belly to cool the coils. You rarely need it at altitude ( although low flight during the summer it is good), but provides some comfort on the ground. The biggest fault with the system is the compressor seems to like the rpms at at least 1500 to really kick in, and on the ground most people idol at 1000. So you do the math there.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
Seminole Pilot said:
Thanks as that is valuable information. I'm just in the beginning stages of exploring options so good to hear this info from 1st hand owners. I assume if it's NA the cooling issue does not exist?
Click to expand...
Yes the NA 1980 Toga does not have the heating problem.
 
Interesting. It looks like it has a Garmin g300 / g3x but it isn’t listed. Bet he didn’t get a field approval.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That's a 696, which is listed.

Now, I want to know what "Electric pro de-ice" is.
Click to expand...
I have not heard that name before, but I know there are after market deicing systems available for the PA32. They are Not FIKI approved and are basically an oh crap I could be in trouble here item. Most of the systems also take like 35 lbs off of the useful load.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
I’m guessing they left a p off of “Electric prop de-ice.”
 
So, my 2 cents and it will be worth every bit that you pay.

I’d vote against the Turbo. You’re going from Michigan (not a high DA place) going to Florida (not a high DA place). Flying with kids (very hard getting them to wear oxygen). All of these limit the usefulness of a Turbo.

And, I don’t think that’s a great panel. With the Garmin 500txi available, Aspen Evolution, GTN 750 and 650 or Aspen’s IFD 440/540 plus the modern autopilots being certified (Dynon?), this panel is going to be very dated, very fast.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
I absolutely love my Six 300. We live in northern Indiana and we load her up and travel to UP Michigan with 4 bikes or Florida with way too much luggage. We normally get 140 KTS CAS at 13.9 GPH. The utility and versatility are perfect for me and my family. I normally travel with the middle seats removed, but have loaded her up with 5 passengers and luggage. She gets the job done and is very easy to handle - not a bad temperament at all.
 
Salty said:
I missed that. I didn’t even know the 696 existed.
Click to expand...

IIRC, I think the 696 was Garmin's initial response to the iPad, and it kinda fell flat on its face in that role. However, it is a good unit for what it is (a portable GPS), and I've seen a fair number of them - Not a ton, but I wouldn't call it "rare" - mounted in the Air Gizmos docks. For a basic MFD-style unit, that's a pretty affordable thing, and it can do XM weather.
 
Thanks for the responses on that one I ran across. I did reach out, however it looks like it will be sold on Sunday and I’m not moving that fast as they’ll be others to choose from. The search continues...the good news is I’m not in a rush where I need something tomorrow so I can find the right one in terms of specs & price that meets our needs. I really wasn’t looking for a turbo in the first place but that seemed like a pretty clean, low hour kept up plane.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top