Flying Blind - Why VFR pilots get into trouble in the clouds

Until you fly into solid IFR completely by surprise? You have no idea what it's like or how you'll react to total disorientation. It isn't just one sense that's distorted. It's all of them. It's very difficult to gather yourself in that situation and you don't have much time to do it. That's the killer. And that's my pirep.
 
Stewartb said:
Until you fly into solid IFR completely by surprise? You have no idea what it's like or how you'll react to total disorientation. It isn't just one sense that's distorted. It's all of them. It's very difficult to gather yourself in that situation and you don't have much time to do it. That's the killer. And that's my pirep.
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If that was a pirep, shouldn’t you be dead?
 
I very nearly was.

Do you guys have anything interesting to contribute or does making fun of guys with the experience just make you feel better???
 
Stewartb said:
I very nearly was.

Do you guys have anything interesting to contribute or does making fun of guys with the experience just make you feel better???
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I plan on doing everything I can to not have your experience, which didn’t kill you by the way, but perhaps your sense of humor was a casualty.
 
Mine is fine. Yours is suspect. There's nothing funny about almost dying in an airplane in your own back yard with your wife and kid home. They told me later that they heard the whole takeoff sequence and knew something was wrong. Not all flight into IMC is in cruise while poking through some scud. Do it at 100' while taking off a short strip with tall tress and be taken totally by surprise? You try to share the experience so it might help others to understand it.

Everyone's above making the mistake when they've never made it. Just ask them.
 
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A bunch of people, organizations, statistics are all saying if you do this thing you're likely to die but you think you can probably handle it. Just takes some self discipline and concentration right?

I mean... maybe? Lots of guys do survive VFR into IMC.... but why? You're not going to break a record or impress anybody. There's no cash prize, there's no prestige. You'll just have survived a thing that anyone with an instrument rating could do. Does the hamburger you're flying to matter that much? Will it make that much of a difference if you aren't there until tomorrow? You're risking the life of anyone in the plane with you too. Given the consequences of being wrong about one's own abilities... is it worth it? I can't see how.
 
Well, you can poke fun at the "seat of the pants" flying failure, but I know that at least one person on this board believes that a pendulum of some sort would be all the instrument they need to keep shiny side up. How many enter clouds and don't stop looking outside? Quite a few, it appears.
 
A functional auto-pilot, verify fuel requirements and throw in a Stratux + app with syn vis and you're now safer than driving to the airport.

The Top 10 Leading Causes of Fatal General Aviation Accidents 2001-2016:
1. Loss of Control Inflight
2. Controlled Flight Into Terrain
3. System Component Failure – Powerplant
4. Fuel Related
5. Unknown or Undetermined
6. System Component Failure – Non-Powerplant
7. Unintended Flight In IMC
8. Midair Collisions
9. Low-Altitude Operations
10. Other
 
Challenged said:
A functional auto-pilot, verify fuel requirements and throw in a Stratux + app with syn vis and you're now safer than driving to the airport.

The Top 10 Leading Causes of Fatal General Aviation Accidents 2001-2016:
1. Loss of Control Inflight
2. Controlled Flight Into Terrain
3. System Component Failure – Powerplant
4. Fuel Related
5. Unknown or Undetermined
6. System Component Failure – Non-Powerplant
7. Unintended Flight In IMC
8. Midair Collisions
9. Low-Altitude Operations
10. Other
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And yet this belief is what gets people into trouble. Unless you’re on autopilot before entering IMC. Even stratux synth vis (I think synth vis is overrated) won’t necessarily save a VFR pilot. It’s harder than you think, and this assumes it’s set up and running at the time already.


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A decent VFR pilot who's in cruise flight and enters a cloud should know to do a 180* turn right away. To continue is a nuts. I know some guys think it's a narrow band but I'm in the turn and run camp. In my earlier example my inadvertent IMC was immediately after takeff at about 25' above the trees. No turning back in that case. Stupid? Maybe, maybe not. Did I learn a lesson? Oh hell yes! When different guys talk about this topic they envision different scenarios.
 
Stewartb said:
Until you fly into solid IFR completely by surprise? You have no idea what it's like or how you'll react to total disorientation. It isn't just one sense that's distorted. It's all of them. It's very difficult to gather yourself in that situation and you don't have much time to do it. That's the killer. And that's my pirep.
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This is very true. We didn't fly into IMC completely by surprise, but it was still surprising.

My wife had around 900 hours when she got her instrument rating. We filed and flew several IFR flight plans, occasionally encountering some moderate IMC conditions. But then one day, we took off into solid IMC (ceiling around 750ft). When we entered the soup, it was THICK. We could barely see the wingtips. Leslie was doing a fair job of keeping it level during the initial climb, but then we needed to turn and things got sticky. I could feel panic setting in her voice, but she concentrated and kept us upright. But it was tough and scary. We stayed in the soup for a good two hours with several climbs and course corrections requested by ATC. Each one was an adventure. but by the end of the 2nd hour, she was responding like a pro. Without her training, we would have probably died during the first climbing turn, although in reality, without the training and the rating, we would never had attempted it.

The moral of the story is that unexpected entry into IMC without proper training is probably going to turn out very badly. My suggestion to a VFR pilot that encounters this scenario focus on straight and level flight, but climb or descend into VMC as soon as possible before making turns.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
I'm glad I paid the extra $400 for synthetic vision on my EFIS. Here's hoping I'll never need it.
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I’m skeptical that it helps more than an artificial horizon...


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JOhnH said:
My suggestion to a VFR pilot that encounters this scenario focus on straight and level flight, but climb or descend into VMC as soon as possible before making turns.
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I think there are two things a person should do to get out of this situation:

1) Don't panic
2) Perform a standard rate 180° turn as soon as practicable

With few exceptions it will be VFR behind you when you transition into IMC...
 
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idahoflier said:
It could be a life saver around mountainous terrain...
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Terrain page on a 430 as good or better, primary concern is staying upright...


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As I read through this thread I get an idea of why “inadvertent” IMC is still killing pilots quite frequently.

Yes, technology is making IFR flight easier but the trade off is a false sense of safety from the SV iPad yielding PPL that’s overly confident with that tech.
 
So #7 on the list of fatal GA accidents is "Unintended Flight In IMC". I'd be curious to know how many of those events took place when the pilot had both synthetic vision and a functional autopilot.
 
Challenged said:
So #7 on the list of fatal GA accidents is "Unintended Flight In IMC". I'd be curious to know how many of those events took place when the pilot had both synthetic vision and a functional autopilot.
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I’d be curious to know how many non-accident unintended flight into IMC occur...mine certainly didn’t have synthetic vision or autopilot.
 
That would be interesting to know. Not really possible to answer I guess, but interesting to think about.
 
gsengle said:
Terrain page on a 430 as good or better, primary concern is staying upright...
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Disagree. The VFR pilot need only look at one screen for all flight information rather than scanning between the AI and the 430 (let alone the rest of the six pack)...
 
gsengle said:
And the most important psychological effect, no safety blanket in the right seat...
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I can’t think of anything more true than this. I got almost no actual during IFR training but spent lots of time under the hood in some nasty turbulence and felt 100% confident after I got my ticket. My first time in a nice, bumpy cumulus cloud without a CFII sitting next to me sure opened my eyes though. It’s amazing how uncomfortable you get when the nerves kick in and everything starts to happen REALLY fast without that safety net of an instructor. Without a lot of training and continued practice/proficiency it could be extremely hard to keep it together in the bumpy soup.
 
Tantalum said:
A.) make people terrified of it enough that they'll avoid it at all costs, and if in it assume they'll die and best glide it into the ground, or at least out the bottom (didn't old Sopwith pilots get taught to spin planes out of clouds?)
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Check!

Tantalum said:
Granted, as planes become more advanced should you find yourself IMC you have very capable autopilots now, hit LVL, fess up to ATC, and use HDG and ALT to get you back in VMC
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That's what the AP, Hold 180* button is for! (far left, or on top)

ap47-autopilot.jpg
 
I have syn vis and think its an awesome tool but intil I take the time to fly it using foggles in terrain where it might matter? No way am I ready to trust it or myself. New tools alone don't make me proficient, training and practice does.

BTW, if any VFR needs an auto pilot to do a 180* turn in the clouds? They need to reach out to an instructor for some training. No shame in doing that. More shame in not.
 
Not sure I understand the syn vis comments, syn vis is cool and stuff, but I wouldn't use it for turning, its the AI, TC, altimeter and VSI that I use, those should be right on your panel.
 
PaulS said:
Not sure I understand the syn vis comments, syn vis is cool and stuff, but I wouldn't use it for turning, its the AI, TC, altimeter and VSI that I use, those should be right on your panel.
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Some seem to think that if you have synth vis you’re as good as VFR...


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No way I’m relying on synthetic vision to fly in IMC. Not even to get out of it. Its not even close to hardened enough for that.

I worry about people that think it’s an option.
 
I wonder if some are confusing syn vis with AHRS that some EFBs have when linked to a Stratux or similar device, like Foreflight has. The AHRS in FF is cool, but you need to check it for alignment for each flight and it is not approved for use in a flight, it is a toy. That said, on an IFR flight where everything is kaput, it could be a lifesaver, if you have set it up ahead of time, but for getting out of inadvertent IMC, it would be the last place I would look.
 
My GDL ADHRS enables the full syn vis in GP, and it looks just like my G3X. Both are great. Better than great. The weakness is me. I haven't trained to use them instinctively in a high stress situation. Information is information. Me learning how to process and apply it is the missing component.
 
Tantalum said:
^^THIS^^ is what annoyed me so much about that video and created my strong reaction. It's a total straw man about what might make IMC and inadvertent IMC dangerous. We don't ask Bodie Miller to ski the glades with his eyes closed then wonder why he hits a tree. I'm sorry but the whole thing proves nothing beyond flying with your eyes closed is a dumb idea
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Closing your eyes is quite unrealistic. I tried this with another CFI, and I was always able to maintain a reasonably level pitch by focusing on the engine sound and wind noise, much to my surprise. In IMC, you don't have a dark window. You see various cloud formations, water droplets and false horizons. Your eyes overtake your sense of balance ignoring all other sensory inputs, which is why VFR into IMC is dangerous. There is no simple way to mimic this in a training environment, which is why this continues to be a killer.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’d be curious to know how many non-accident unintended flight into IMC occur...mine certainly didn’t have synthetic vision or autopilot.
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I didn't even have any gyros. None. Really.
Fun times.
The big problem was that I forgot that I only had 178 seconds to get out of there so I forgot to panic.
 
Stewartb said:
My GDL ADHRS enables the full syn vis in GP, and it looks just like my G3X. Both are great. Better than great. The weakness is me. I haven't trained to use them instinctively in a high stress situation. Information is information. Me learning how to process and apply it is the missing component.
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I'm going to pick on the part of your post I highlighted. And to be fair to you, you didn't say you'd depend on your portable solution for SV in IMC - because you're not trained for it. I'm saying don't ever plan to use your portable solution in IMC.

You said "Information is information." Correct information is information. Incorrect information is noise. Do you know why the FAA requires RAIM for IFR certified GPSs? Have you ever watched your GDL (or any other portable GPS) position jump a few hundred meters? (I have.) And the portable AHRS systems are also error capable (not saying error prone). What's the biggest danger of a vacuum failure in IMC? It's that the gyros fail slowly over several minutes which is hard to detect and pilots follow the AI into a death spiral without even realizing it's failed. i.e. you don't know you're getting noise not information. Same issues I have with these portable solutions: you don't know you're getting noise, not information.

Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring (RAIM) is required by the FAA because you need to know when NOT to trust the GPS. None of the portables (as far as I know) have this. Portable AHRS systems and Synthetic Vision (which rely on AHRS and GPS solutions) also have no built in error monitoring. They are quite capable of giving you bad information. So to say "Hey! I've got this portable solution. I'm good if I venture into the clouds." Is a really bad idea. You don't know if you're getting information or noise.

All that said, If I was in IMC and my avionics went belly up, I'd use the portable because it probably better than nothing. I would never plan to use it in IMC.

John
 
To your question? My GP on idevices has sparkled for reliability and accuracy. I compared mine to my G3X system and it compares very favorably. I'd suggest you should use a GDL and GP before you make broad assumptions about what they don't do.

FAA certifications don't impress me. Experimental aircraft glass panels are very capable and reliable tools, not toys.
 
sarangan said:
You see various cloud formations, water droplets and false horizons. Your eyes overtake your sense of balance ignoring all other sensory inputs, which is why VFR into IMC is dangerous.
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Emotional fortitude to keep eyes in plane and watch instruments. I have a few friends who fly with their foggles on in IMC.. I think that speaks to the emotional challenges
 
gsengle said:
Terrain page on a 430 as good or better, primary concern is staying upright...


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Actually, having your attitude and terrain avoidance combined in video game fashion beats the heck out of two instruments. Play with some of the sims.
 
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