Single engine planes for fiki

[PaulS]

No it’s way more complicated than that. Flying in ice is all about escape routes. Mountains take em away. I fly in known ice in unpressurized planes for a living, have my atp, and own a fiki single. I’m not afraid of ice. But I respect it and believe it’s something you have to respect and develop experience with over time.


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Agreed, I'm not checked out in a FIKI plane, working on my IR now, with intentions of getting a FIKI plane. The first article I read about that incident was about the lawsuit and how the FAA settled/was going to settle because they flew him into the mountain. Nothing about ice. Being the dutiful POA er I posted immediately after that, I really know better, but whatever.

But for me, at this stage, and maybe after I'm checked out and trained in a FIKI bird, I think the airlines cancelling or holding due to ice is pretty powerful stuff, enough that I'm no go if I hear that.

I've been in ice with my instructor in a FIKI plane, it was a non event but certainly not something a novice should screw with.

For me, here in New England, where mountains generally are not a concern, a FIKI plane is a good option for those days where the freezing level is at the surface and there is a cloud layer at 1,500 feet, 2,000 feet thick. That opens up a lot of possibilities in my mind, fly through it until you get above it. Launching into a snow storm? I can't see myself ever needing to do that.

 

[gsengle]

Agreed, I'm not checked out in a FIKI plane, working on my IR now, with intentions of getting a FIKI plane. The first article I read about that incident was about the lawsuit and how the FAA settled/was going to settle because they flew him into the mountain. Nothing about ice. Being the dutiful POA er I posted immediately after that, I really know better, but whatever.

But for me, at this stage, and maybe after I'm checked out and trained in a FIKI bird, I think the airlines cancelling or holding due to ice is pretty powerful stuff, enough that I'm no go if I hear that.

I've been in ice with my instructor in a FIKI plane, it was a non event but certainly not something a novice should screw with.

For me, here in New England, where mountains generally are not a concern, a FIKI plane is a good option for those days where the freezing level is at the surface and there is a cloud layer at 1,500 feet, 2,000 feet thick. That opens up a lot of possibilities in my mind, fly through it until you get above it. Launching into a snow storm? I can't see myself ever needing to do that.

If airlines (jets) are canceling it’s severe stuff. Light to moderate doesn’t stop the airlines at all. If they’re cancelling you don’t go.

I fly and base in New England. Where will you be flying? There is a big difference between coastal and mountain New England in terms of dealing with ice. Different problems. It’s all an icy place but sometimes the ocean gives you an out to get below.

Generally I’d just use a fiki single to be legal on just the sort of days you’re describing. When you can easily get below and above the cloud layer. If you have to climb from the surface to 10,000 in moderate icing, not so much... and don’t forget having to approach in the stuff, icing often hangs out on instrument approaches...


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[PaulS]

If airlines (jets) are canceling it’s severe stuff. Light to moderate doesn’t stop the airlines at all. If they’re cancelling you don’t go.

I fly and base in New England. Where will you be flying? There is a big difference between coastal and mountain New England in terms of dealing with ice. Different problems. It’s all an icy place but sometimes the ocean gives you an out to get below.

Generally I’d just use a fiki single to be legal on just the sort of days you’re describing. When you can easily get below and above the cloud layer. If you have to climb from the surface to 10,000 in moderate icing, not so much... and don’t forget having to approach in the stuff, icing often hangs out on instrument approaches...


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I'm flying out of Bedford. So heading north you can get into mountain stuff, but I don't see myself needing to fly in crap up there, maybe worst case IFR into Laconia, probably not in icing conditions though. Good info, thanks.

 

[weilke]

Ok, just read the full account, launching yourself when the airlines are cancelling is stupid, plain and simple, got it.

The airline canceled for a mechanical issue.

 

[Clip4]

I believe the aircraft was certificated for flight into "Icing conditions". "Known" was not part of the language. Is that what we're talking about? I'm sure Richard Collins, AVEMCO and a ton of of others would be surprised to learn that the they were flying their 210's in icing conditions not properly certificated. Is this a recent determination regarding this aircraft??

1st, very few P210s with plate, hot prop and boots qualify. The tell is they have dual alternators and boot on the fin.

In 2014 the FAA adopted an AD for the Cessna Models 310, 320, 340, 401, 402, 411, 414, and 421 requiring these old flight into icing approved airplanes be placarded Flight Into Known Icing Prohibited. Why they didn’t do this with the P210 is a little baffling.

The P210 fails current flight into known icing in several standards including stall warning indication and ice-contaminated tailplane susceptibility. All you are guaranteed is a clear and unambiguous buffet at wing stall.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

1st, very few P210s with plate, hot prop and boots qualify. The tell is they have dual alternators and boot on the fin.

So then a P210N with a plate, hot prop, boots and dual alternators does still qualify then? Add radar and you've got a very capable airplane.

 

[andersenpj]

Just curious... Why not a twin?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

'New to IFR' with 3 people FIKI in a single into the mountains. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Look up Luke Bucklin from Minneapolis.

What I really hate are funerals with 4 caskets.

Then tell him you recommend X hours of Y kind of experience before doing Z, not "United." Are you not even allowed to ask questions until you have the experience for the mission?

I asked a lot of questions like this when I was still a student pilot, and probably some before I even started flight training. That didn't mean I was going to run out and buy a Baron and launch into known ice with my family aboard the next day - I was just curious about where this aviation thing could take me. I'm glad nobody ran me off toward United back then.

 

[weilke]

Then tell him you recommend X hours of Y kind of experience before doing Z, not "United." Are you not even allowed to ask questions until you have the experience for the mission?

I asked a lot of questions like this when I was still a student pilot, and probably some before I even started flight training. That didn't mean I was going to run out and buy a Baron and launch into known ice with my family aboard the next day - I was just curious about where this aviation thing could take me. I'm glad nobody ran me off toward United back then.

You are so right. I should be more encouraging. Because that's what you do if you are on POA.

He needs to transport 3 from Dubuque, IA to Saratoga, WY. Direct, that's 723nm, with a dogleg via MBW and EDIFY to avoid the big rocks, its 743nm.

Lets look at the options:

- Mooney Bravo with TKS: Good luck finding one with a UL that allows 3 up and 4hrs of fuel.
- Mooney Ovation with TKS: Not sure, you are the expert on those. Give me the math.
- A36 with TKS: May have the UL and room for 3, but it's a 4:23 flight. Add an hour of reserve and you need 20gallons for the first hour and 15gph for the remaining 4:23. Plane holds 70gallons, so that leaves him with an intermediate stop for fuel (can't use tip-tanks as they negate the FIKI approval).
- PA46-310: 3:48 for 743nm + 1hr reserve. That's what, 25 for the first hour and 15gph for the remaining 3:48. About 82gallons. Could work.

So yes. By all means, he should buy one of those and start making that trip in the winter and on a schedule. That's what GA needs, I guess.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

He needs to transport 3 from Dubuque, IA to Saratoga, WY. Direct, that's 723nm, with a dogleg via MBW and EDIFY to avoid the big rocks, its 743nm.

OK. I'd actually go to the RNAV 5 for planning, since that's what'll happen in the worst weather. Starting from ZOLGA there's plenty of room to get down from 16,000 at ZOLGA, and that's higher than any of the OROCAs en route.

- Mooney Bravo with TKS: Good luck finding one with a UL that allows 3 up and 4hrs of fuel.
- Mooney Ovation with TKS: Not sure, you are the expert on those. Give me the math.

Full fuel and TKS, you probably have about 400 pounds of payload available, but full fuel (about 7.5 hours) is way more than you need for a trip like this. The route above is about 4:40 in flight, plus about a half hour to get to an alternate as far away as Casper, plus 45 minutes reserve means 6 hours of fuel. You won't get both... But for a trip of that length with pax I would want to have a stop halfway anyway. With that in mind, there would be about 700 pounds of payload available. That's four 175-pound people, so it'll depend on how big the people are and how heavily they pack.

FWIW, the Bravo would only burn about 5 gallons more when split into 2 legs like this, so if the people are a few pounds less or pack lighter, that'd work too.

So yes. By all means, he should buy one of those and start making that trip in the winter and on a schedule. That's what GA needs, I guess.

That is EXACTLY what GA needs. More people with the means to buy a $500K airplane to be told how to make it happen, rather than run off like we tend to do.

I note your use of "on a schedule." That's merely a training issue, and it's not hard to get around. If you *need* to be somewhere, you leave early enough that you can drive (or take United) if you HAVE to be there. That's how I stay safe, but the number of times I've needed to exercise that option is zero, so far. For all the doom and gloom about weather, maintenance, etc I've had great success using GA for travel. I generally fly between 100-150 hours a year because I friggin hate United* and I like reaping the benefits of all the training I went through (and yes, my previous experience as well). Generally, weather en route can be circumnavigated, and weather at the origin and/or destination can be dealt with with a time shift. A willingness to change the plan at any time is also important to safety, and I like to tell my pax "flying is always an adventure, it just may not be the adventure you had planned on."

By keeping that flexibility and avoiding true have-to-be-there situations where possible (ie, don't schedule important meetings that can't be done on the phone on your first day back), I've had wonderful utility out of GA, and THAT is the message we need to be giving newbies, not "United."


* I hate airline travel, period. Nothing against United or any other particular airline. I own a traveling airplane so that I don't have to fly airlines, and in the last decade four of my five airline trips have been to pick up or drop off GA airplanes.

 

[scottfromboston]

You can get a Mooney Bravo with FIKI TKS for significantly less than $500K. I have an Ovation, which you can also get with FIKI TKS, but if the trip to Wyoming is going to be your primary mission, turbo is probably the way to go for you. Here's one for only $175K: https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/29217847/1990-mooney-m20m-tls

The SR22T with FIKI would be another good choice, though it's a lot harder to tell if they're FIKI - Every Mooney with TKS is FIKI, while most Cirri are not, even with TKS. Cirrus did not have a FIKI option until 2009, the ones with FIKI have a "Max" setting. Here's a nice one for $440K: https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/24891989/2009-cirrus-sr22-g3-turbo

I don't know much about the TKS options for the Mooneys, but I'm pretty sure that TKS offers a non-FIKI option for the series.

Cirrus - pretty sure that everything since 2009 with TKS (most have it) is FIKI. 2008 and older is "precautionary only".

Easy ways to tell:
- FIKI has protected Vstab, windshield nozzles, filler port on wing
- non-FIKI has none of the above, filler port on fuse, cabin air inlets at wing root (FIKI protects that area and moves the ports to the fuse)

I have a friend that routinely operates a FIKI SR22 in icing here in New England and, personally, no thanks.

Scott

 

[jordane93]

I fly a Cirrus in the Northeast (mostly to Bangor) in the winter without any issues. As long as you know its limitations and have a back up plan, you’re good to go

 

[scottfromboston]

I fly a Cirrus in the Northeast (mostly to Bangor) in the winter without any issues. As long as you know its limitations and have a back up plan, you’re good to go

To be clear - I'm not objecting to the general idea; I just don't have the experience (my friend is flying pt 135). Maybe someday - I only have 25hr or so in Cirrus, and I can't/won't really test the limits as our SR22 is non-FIKI.

 

[jordane93]

To be clear - I'm not objecting to the general idea; I just don't have the experience (my friend is flying pt 135). Maybe someday - I only have 25hr or so in Cirrus, and I can't/won't really test the limits as our SR22 is non-FIKI.

We do part 91 flights in our some of our Cirrus (Cirri?). The first trip I made in the winter, the chief pilot came with me and showed me everything.

 

[gsengle]

I don't know much about the TKS options for the Mooneys, but I'm pretty sure that TKS offers a non-FIKI option for the series.

Cirrus - pretty sure that everything since 2009 with TKS (most have it) is FIKI. 2008 and older is "precautionary only".

Easy ways to tell:
- FIKI has protected Vstab, windshield nozzles, filler port on wing
- non-FIKI has none of the above, filler port on fuse, cabin air inlets at wing root (FIKI protects that area and moves the ports to the fuse)

I have a friend that routinely operates a FIKI SR22 in icing here in New England and, personally, no thanks.

Scott

Most TKS Mooney’s are FIKI, especially Bravos and Ovations.


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[James_Dean]

In 2014 the FAA adopted an AD for the Cessna Models 310, 320, 340, 401, 402, 411, 414, and 421 requiring these old flight into icing approved airplanes be placarded Flight Into Known Icing Prohibited. Why they didn’t do this with the P210 is a little baffling.

To be clear, this did not apply to ALL serial #'s of the models listed. It only applies to models that did not come from the factory with FIKI certification. My 310R was FIKI certified and remained so after the AD. It only applied to mainly the "deiced" models.

 

[ircphoenix]

What does FIKI have to do with flying into a mountain?

Flight into known igneous?

TKS probably won't help with that though.

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[Sinistar]

Don't some models of the Cessna TTX support FIKI. At $500K maybe one could be found and might haul 4 people if no one is fat (like me!)

 

[Eric Stoltz]

OK. I'd actually go to the RNAV 5 for planning, since that's what'll happen in the worst weather. Starting from ZOLGA there's plenty of room to get down from 16,000 at ZOLGA, and that's higher than any of the OROCAs en route.



Full fuel and TKS, you probably have about 400 pounds of payload available, but full fuel (about 7.5 hours) is way more than you need for a trip like this. The route above is about 4:40 in flight, plus about a half hour to get to an alternate as far away as Casper, plus 45 minutes reserve means 6 hours of fuel. You won't get both... But for a trip of that length with pax I would want to have a stop halfway anyway. With that in mind, there would be about 700 pounds of payload available. That's four 175-pound people, so it'll depend on how big the people are and how heavily they pack.

FWIW, the Bravo would only burn about 5 gallons more when split into 2 legs like this, so if the people are a few pounds less or pack lighter, that'd work too.



That is EXACTLY what GA needs. More people with the means to buy a $500K airplane to be told how to make it happen, rather than run off like we tend to do.

I note your use of "on a schedule." That's merely a training issue, and it's not hard to get around. If you *need* to be somewhere, you leave early enough that you can drive (or take United) if you HAVE to be there. That's how I stay safe, but the number of times I've needed to exercise that option is zero, so far. For all the doom and gloom about weather, maintenance, etc I've had great success using GA for travel. I generally fly between 100-150 hours a year because I friggin hate United* and I like reaping the benefits of all the training I went through (and yes, my previous experience as well). Generally, weather en route can be circumnavigated, and weather at the origin and/or destination can be dealt with with a time shift. A willingness to change the plan at any time is also important to safety, and I like to tell my pax "flying is always an adventure, it just may not be the adventure you had planned on."

By keeping that flexibility and avoiding true have-to-be-there situations where possible (ie, don't schedule important meetings that can't be done on the phone on your first day back), I've had wonderful utility out of GA, and THAT is the message we need to be giving newbies, not "United."


* I hate airline travel, period. Nothing against United or any other particular airline. I own a traveling airplane so that I don't have to fly airlines, and in the last decade four of my five airline trips have been to pick up or drop off GA airplanes.

This is by far the best post I have read on this forum, that wasn't mine. You win the PoA post trophy for this thread.


And, I cannot recall ever hearing of an airline that flies jets to cancel a flight for enroute icing. Maybe for precipitation or runway contamination, tho.

Also, keep in mind boots suck, heating elements fail often, and glycol is a limited resource. So I only used them when my planning to fly around the ice failed, and I needed the extra help to escape the ice.

BT36? Weren't some of them FIKI?

FIKI is my new least favorite word. FIKI. Say it 10 times with a lot of emphasis on the F n K.

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[DrWhoExactly]

Hi everyone! Looking for friendly imput. Is it possible to buy a single engine non turbin plane for under $500K to make trips from KDBQ to KSAA during the winter months. (mountains and ice). Sorry for the dumb question. will listen to suggestions

Did you ever get an adequate enough answer to move forward with a purchase?

I'm curious as I have similarly ambitious aspirations for eventual GA adventures and am curious if it's a case of "no such thing exists" or just "most people aren't willing to put in that much effort."

 

[Rockymountain]

I have a good bit of experience flying in the ice in the mountains in piston FIKI Mirage's and piston FIKI Cirri. Both planes handle the ice well enough, for most conditions. However, weather in the mountains is not for the faint of heart. Usually brings with it SLD, moderate to severe turbulence, Unforecast weather, and cumulogranite. This is real deal IFR, with not a lot of room for error. Of the 2 the Mirage is a better mountain weather solution. Just more redundant, and that big fat wing handles ice better than the highly efficient, but skinny laminar wing of the Cirrus. By far the best icing solution is being on top of the weather in cruise, and that usually means FL 220-250 when a cold front comes across the Rockies. Need pressurization to do that safely, especially with kids and passengers, where losing your oxygen supply becomes a dire emergency. There are some cute adages out there, like night, IMC, Mountains, pick one. ;-)

 

[N1120A]

TKS works better than boots - so much better than Quest uses TKS for the Kodiak and Cessna has converted the 208, which previously was FIKI-but-terrible with boots, to TKS. I've seen it at work in a FIKI SR-22T and I'd trust that system, so long as I know I've got enough time to get out. Mooneys have the same system, so same deal.

An Ovation with TKS should give you 1000 pounds useful total. They do 176 knots at 12.2 GPH or 190+ on 14.5. That leaves you a lot of trade off of fuel for payload. They also can do FL200, though they prefer to stay at 12000 and under. You can buy 2 with G1000 on your budget.

I don't know much about the TKS options for the Mooneys, but I'm pretty sure that TKS offers a non-FIKI option for the series.

Cirrus - pretty sure that everything since 2009 with TKS (most have it) is FIKI. 2008 and older is "precautionary only".

Easy ways to tell:
- FIKI has protected Vstab, windshield nozzles, filler port on wing
- non-FIKI has none of the above, filler port on fuse, cabin air inlets at wing root (FIKI protects that area and moves the ports to the fuse)

I have a friend that routinely operates a FIKI SR22 in icing here in New England and, personally, no thanks.

Scott

I believe the non-FIKI TKS packages for Mooneys are all retrofits. If it comes from the factory, it is FIKI. I think Cirrus actually built non-FIKI TKS planes or "holy $#!T" situations.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

PC12.....

 

[flyingcheesehead]

TKS works better than boots - so much better than Quest uses TKS for the Kodiak and Cessna has converted the 208, which previously was FIKI-but-terrible with boots, to TKS. I've seen it at work in a FIKI SR-22T and I'd trust that system, so long as I know I've got enough time to get out. Mooneys have the same system, so same deal.

An Ovation with TKS should give you 1000 pounds useful total. They do 176 knots at 12.2 GPH or 190+ on 14.5. That leaves you a lot of trade off of fuel for payload. They also can do FL200, though they prefer to stay at 12000 and under. You can buy 2 with G1000 on your budget.

I believe the non-FIKI TKS packages for Mooneys are all retrofits. If it comes from the factory, it is FIKI. I think Cirrus actually built non-FIKI TKS planes or "holy $#!T" situations.

I think you're mostly correct WRT the Ovation. I've only actually seen one that had TKS and was non-FIKI. I have had mine to FL190, but they're perfectly happy up to 15,000 and will maintain a 500fpm climb up to about that level (I think mine went below 500fpm climbing through 15,300).

I know that I prefer to stay in the non-oxygen altitudes just because breathing oxygen through cannulas really dries out my sinuses and makes my nose burn after 1/2 hour or so, but it's a tool in the toolbox anyway.

 

[3393RP]

PC12.....

I'm reminded of the TBM700 that took off from TEB and crashed on the interstate near Morristown NJ around Christmas 2011. ATC informed the pilot that the forecast icing had been confirmed by several pireps, and he replied “we’ll let you know what happens when we get in there and if we could go straight through, it’s no problem for us.”

It turned out icing conditions were severe. One CRJ crew at 14,000' felt they were in danger of losing control the ice was so heavy

He stalled the plane at 18,000' trying to climb through the ice at 115 kts IIRC, and about 90 seconds after that, it hit the ground after he pulled off its wings. His wife and two kids died in the crash too.

So having a FIKI aircraft doesn't make one bulletproof.

 

[N1120A]

I'm reminded of the TBM700 that took off from TEB and crashed on the interstate near Morristown NJ around Christmas 2011. ATC informed the pilot that the forecast icing had been confirmed by several pireps, and he replied “we’ll let you know what happens when we get in there and if we could go straight through, it’s no problem for us.”

It turned out icing conditions were severe. One CRJ crew at 14,000' felt they were in danger of losing control the ice was so heavy

He stalled the plane at 18,000' trying to climb through the ice at 115 kts IIRC, and about 90 seconds after that, it hit the ground after he pulled off its wings. His wife and two kids died in the crash too.

So having a FIKI aircraft doesn't make one bulletproof.

ATC was part of the problem there too, because they wanted to keep him in the ice longer than they should have and didn't follow a memo that went out that day about having prop powered aircraft in the ice. Still, the guy made a horrible error with his family's life by thinking FIKI meant he could fly through anything.

One problem with the TBM (and PC12) is that they use boots. Boots only work so much, and they don't get the entire wing like TKS does. They aren't time limited, but even airliners aren't spending hours on end in ice. You also have to time boot usage to actually accumulate a little ice first before blowing them. I wouldn't be surprised if Daher looks at switching to TKS, like Cessna did with the Caravan and like Quest did with the Kodiak.

 

[Rgbeard]

Turbo Saratoga with boots and more from http://www.iceshield.com/Saratoga ??

 

[PaulS]

The SR22 G6 naturally aspirated airplane I rent has a useful load of 1,183 pounds. Fiki, built in ox, ac, perspective plus airplane.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My FIKI Ovation only gets about 950 lbs UL with empty TKS tank. I think the fluid is about 9 lbs/gallon. Love the plane, but I wouldn’t mind 200 lbs extra UL. A non-FIKI Encore (M20K/252) I looked at had over 1000 lbs UL. FIKI requires 2nd alternator, 2nd pump and has some other small differences.

Interesting. My non-TKS Ovation used to have about a 1020 pound useful load. After pulling out a bunch of dinosaur avionics, we gained 25 more pounds, and I expect to get back another 25ish on our next avionics upgrade so we should be up around 1075 useful.

The newer ones with both FIKI and A/C are awfully heavy empty though.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I don't know much about the TKS options for the Mooneys, but I'm pretty sure that TKS offers a non-FIKI option for the series.

From what I've learned more recently, all of the TKS-equipped Mooneys that came that way from the factory were FIKI, but it's possible to buy both FIKI and non-FIKI TKS systems as retrofits.

I just saw my very first non-FIKI Mooney on the for sale sites maybe a month ago...