Renting Uncommon Planes/ Finding unadvertised Rentals/ Renting from Individuals?

MarkH

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Oct 8, 2018
Messages
778
Location
Las Vegas
Display Name

Display name:
MarkH
Long term, I want to own my own plane. Short term, I am building ratings. I would like to work toward both simultaneously.

This means, ideally, I would like to work on my ratings in planes that have a reputation as "Owner Planes" rather than "Trainer Planes". These planes seem to be just as common as trainers, but they are not advertised for rent.

I understand that many owners would not dream of renting their plane to anyone (and I understand that), but I am looking for tips to find that owner who wants to recoup some of that recent, expensive annual or just have their plane flown (and get a little cash) during a short period where they may not be able to fly.

Some of the planes I would like to get some rental time in (that I am having trouble finding as rentals) include a Cessna 310, a Mooney M20 (ideally C, though an A would be fun too), and a V-tail Bonanza. I am looking to get my multi and complex endorsements, so there would be significant CFI time (and I would be open to letting the owner approve the CFI).

What suggestions would experienced pilots have to find this kind of rental?
 
Who you know, how long you've known them and how you behave, otherwise, almost 0 chance. I know of 1 plane I can call up the owner and go fly in with him at the moment, but I trained him to fly his plane... ;)
 
My advice is good luck, and try to find a rational non-emotional plane owner, but mainly good luck. I thought I was near such an opportunity in my situation, but the owner would have rather let the plane decay away then put it to use (that or sell it for more than it was worth.) I think he was bluffing thinking that I would buy the plane if my hand was forced. I did not, and went another direction, there's just so many emotions involved, I think the best advice I have is... find a 172 or PA28 to start with and just own yourself. My first plane a PA28R, pretty much sold what I paid for it...wasn't a bad deal after adding 200 hours to it.
 
My advice is good luck, and try to find a rational non-emotional plane owner, but mainly good luck. I thought I was near such an opportunity in my situation, but the owner would have rather let the plane decay away then put it to use (that or sell it for more than it was worth.) I think he was bluffing thinking that I would buy the plane if my hand was forced. I did not, and went another direction, there's just so many emotions involved, I think the best advice I have is... find a 172 or PA28 to start with and just own yourself. My first plane a PA28R, pretty much sold what I paid for it...wasn't a bad deal after adding 200 hours to it.

It's not emotion, but it is rational, frankly my plane gets much less damage hanging out in its hangar vs getting beat around by a low time hobby pilot.

And one of the reasons people buy vs rent is they like knowing the plane is exactly the way they left it.

That said, if I was going to be gone for a year or something and I had a good friend who was an accomplished and proven pilot, sure. Otherwise I'd just pickle the engine, pull the battery, etc and put the plane into hibernate mode.
 
Here's the thing. If I had a plane and even if it made sense from the perspective of keeping the plane active, I have to weigh that against the thought of what if you screw up and survive and turn around and sue my family, or worse, you die and your family who doesn't care sues me and my family because of some alleged negligence. It's just not worth it to most private owners in the long run. Their risk is less letting the plane sit. Honestly, the longer the plane sits, the higher that risk is gonna get, and the more money the owner would have to put into the plane to mitigate that risk, too.
 
Last edited:
It's not emotion, but it is rational, frankly my plane gets much less damage hanging out in its hangar vs getting beat around by a low time hobby pilot.

And one of the reasons people buy vs rent is they like knowing the plane is exactly the way they left it.

That said, if I was going to be gone for a year or something and I had a good friend who was an accomplished and proven pilot, sure. Otherwise I'd just pickle the engine, pull the battery, etc and put the plane into hibernate mode.

A LOT of this probably depends on where one is and what one's sees around them as how owner's behave. I say this as someone currently owning a plane, and who's bought and sold 1 already as well. There are a ton of planes sitting at airports that are decaying away, sitting for 4 years at a time unused. I get that the likelihood of less damage is true if it's actually flying which your plane is, but back at the airport I used to fly at, there was just one example a 177RG that sat in it's hangar for nearly 15 years unused, in fairness to the plane it looked pristine. The longer I flew at that airport the more I found out about such planes, and there are plenty of them. I get it though, if everyone sold their diamonds the market value would collapse, so it doesn't hurt me that people hoard up their diamonds and do nothing with them...but then they want to sell and think that their "cherry" is perfect, when, actually no the radios are failing, the engine is aging, and it's not what it was. Yeah that plane was exactly the way it was left in 2003 the owner thought, for many others it just sat. I guess my bigger thought is...when someone decides they're done flying something they really need to get it to market as opposed to just letting it rot, but hey not my money, not my care.

Hence why, my advice is, he just needs to buy his own plane.
 
Then there is the whole issue of insurance; "renting". :eek:
 
It is doable. I've rented Mooneys, Bonanzas, retractable Cessnas and Pipers, Cirruses (Ciri?), Tigers... Less likely in a twin, although those exist as well. And you will have to satisfy someone's insurance company.

A lot depends on location. Perhaps obvious: a high-density airport with 4 flight schools is more likely to have unusual rentals than one in a sleepy town. And, as others said, a lot is about you, your attitude, and how you approach others about it.

But here are some things you can look into:
  • Is there a bulletin board at your local airport. Sometimes they advertise there but also look at ads for a share in an airplane. You might be able to work a deal.
  • Is there a local pilots association you can join? Networking is the primary goal. That's how you find out about the "hidden rentals."
  • Any airplanes at your local airport which don't seem to fly? You can look up the owner and inquire.
  • Charitable organizations like Angel Flight. As a fledgling pilot, you can always sit right seat and help out with a mission. The owner might even let you fly a little on the non-passenger legs. And it's also a way to network.
 
  • The owner might even let you fly a little on the non-passenger legs. And it's also a way to network.

Ive always loved staring at the autopilot! My kinda fun......
 
Last edited:
Then there is the whole issue of insurance; "renting". :eek:
That's going to be a big one. Especially if wanting to fly a bunch of types. The open-pilot clause on mine requires 15 hours in make/model.
 
That's going to be a big one. Especially if wanting to fly a bunch of types. The open-pilot clause on mine requires 15 hours in make/model.

Wow..... what’s funny, is I don’t meet my own open pilot clause! 500 hours.
 
A LOT of this probably depends on where one is and what one's sees around them as how owner's behave. I say this as someone currently owning a plane, and who's bought and sold 1 already as well. There are a ton of planes sitting at airports that are decaying away, sitting for 4 years at a time unused. I get that the likelihood of less damage is true if it's actually flying which your plane is, but back at the airport I used to fly at, there was just one example a 177RG that sat in it's hangar for nearly 15 years unused, in fairness to the plane it looked pristine. The longer I flew at that airport the more I found out about such planes, and there are plenty of them. I get it though, if everyone sold their diamonds the market value would collapse, so it doesn't hurt me that people hoard up their diamonds and do nothing with them...but then they want to sell and think that their "cherry" is perfect, when, actually no the radios are failing, the engine is aging, and it's not what it was. Yeah that plane was exactly the way it was left in 2003 the owner thought, for many others it just sat. I guess my bigger thought is...when someone decides they're done flying something they really need to get it to market as opposed to just letting it rot, but hey not my money, not my care.

Hence why, my advice is, he just needs to buy his own plane.

The “sitting” thing is like 80% old wives tale, if it’s tucked away in a hangar and properly put up it’ll normally be fine.

Compared to what I’ve seen renters do, I’d take my chance with a tiny spec of corrosion over all the renter induced abuse
 
Last edited:
I own an Arrow. I rent to one person. He is an aquaintance of long standing. He is a named pilot on my insurance. He was recently a plane owner with lots of experience in type. The lease is set up for a guaranteed annual amount. I am still nervous about the liability when he goes flying. I have had other requests but said no. There is no way I would let anyone with minimal time rent my plane. As a previous poster said the risk is too great. The benefit is too low.
I wish you well.
 
I put 100 hours in a Luscombe 8A because I struck up a conversation with the owner in a pub near the airport and asked him is I could fly it. I have access to an America AA-1 Yankee because I got it ready for annual (and was paid for that). I have access to a Cessna Cutlass II RG because I worked out a dry rental deal with the owner, a friend of my boss.
 
That's going to be a big one. Especially if wanting to fly a bunch of types. The open-pilot clause on mine requires 15 hours in make/model.

There may also be a clause about/against "renting". That said, I'm in my second "non-equity" partnership (effectively renting) and the insurance companies have been fine with it. The non-owners are listed on the insurance policy.

That's not exactly "flying lots of models" though. It is a good way to have access to different models of planes and often planes that are taken care of better or maybe treated better by the pilots.
 
I should mention that, until you get to know me, I come across as a really nice guy ;-)

Regarding insurance; the Luscombe, I was put named pilot on the policy until I had enough hours to go open pilot on renewal; the Yankee, insurance, what insurance (I have non-owners), the Cutlass is with a flight school and I had to satisfy their checkout policies to be covered.
 
Thanks for all of the information. As for the insurance aspect, I found this article for insight: https://insurance.aopa.org/about/news/2017/august/11/borrowing-a-plane

And based on that, I would talk with an insurance agent to be sure that any Non-owners coverage will minimize the financial risk to both me and the owner.

Hence why, my advice is, he just needs to buy his own plane.

That is what I plan to do, but I cannot afford to buy every plane I want and then decide which I like.
 
Owners of uncommon airplanes (and Twins) are probably, on the whole, less likely to rent out their airplanes than someone who owns say a 172, Archer, Arrow, etc. Some own the uncommon airplanes BECAUSE their uncommon, and they tend to be pretty protective of them. Just food for thought.
 
Thanks for all of the information. As for the insurance aspect, I found this article for insight: https://insurance.aopa.org/about/news/2017/august/11/borrowing-a-plane

And based on that, I would talk with an insurance agent to be sure that any Non-owners coverage will minimize the financial risk to both me and the owner.
If the owner is wise up to what renters insurance means it is marginally meaningful. Renters insurance is important, but it does not really minimize any risk exposure to the owner of the aircraft in any way. It's more peace of mind that if YOU bend an airplane and you are honest and will 'fess up, your insurance company will cut a check to the owner and make things (mostly) right.
 
For the Mooney you mention, used to be a Mooney for rent in the trainer fleet at Ace at KABE years ago. So, a rental Mooney isn't a complete unicorn.

I do second your motion though, except I'd like to run into a "rental" Ercoupe and Grumman AA5 personally.
 
It's not emotion, but it is rational, frankly my plane gets much less damage hanging out in its hangar vs getting beat around by a low time hobby pilot.

I have seen far more cases of owners simply being irrational and view their airplane as "their baby" than I have seen cases of owners being grounded in reality and really being worried about their airplane being beat up by someone with subpar pilot skills. Either way, the answer for the OP is still "good luck" as it is unlikely that he will find very many people who will allow the use of their airplane due to all the reasons both you and the other posters have cited.

But, the opportunities do occasionally come up. My experience has been that the opportunities I've gotten have all come from close friends that I have known for quite some time, and the offer to use their planes came from them rather than me asking to borrow or rent them. I have 10 airplanes I could take whenever I want, for the price of gas. (Some of these airplanes are quite unique too - float planes, tailwheel twins, big tire cubs, etc.) I probably have another 2 or 3 that I could use with little more than a phone call. These opportunities have all come as a result of the countless hours I've spent just being at the airport making friends and doing some work here and there.
 
Wishing you luck in your quest,just found a new private rental service on Facebook ,rent-a-plane.com
 
I've got several friends who let me fly their planes knowing that I have non-owned coverage on my policy. I'd be leery about renting from strangers without knowing you had your own policy in force or that their policy was going to cover you.

If all you want is training in a more interesting plane, there are quite a few instructors who own such planes as you describe and have clauses in their policy allowing them to instruct you in their plane.
 
In order to make our 172 available for rental to my own students, our insurance went up by about a factor of 5, from what it was when it was just me and hubby flying it.
 
I have seen far more cases of owners simply being irrational and view their airplane as "their baby" than I have seen cases of owners being grounded in reality and really being worried about their airplane being beat up by someone with subpar pilot skills. Either way, the answer for the OP is still "good luck" as it is unlikely that he will find very many people who will allow the use of their airplane due to all the reasons both you and the other posters have cited.

But, the opportunities do occasionally come up. My experience has been that the opportunities I've gotten have all come from close friends that I have known for quite some time, and the offer to use their planes came from them rather than me asking to borrow or rent them. I have 10 airplanes I could take whenever I want, for the price of gas. (Some of these airplanes are quite unique too - float planes, tailwheel twins, big tire cubs, etc.) I probably have another 2 or 3 that I could use with little more than a phone call. These opportunities have all come as a result of the countless hours I've spent just being at the airport making friends and doing some work here and there.


Maybe it’s because I don’t own trainer trikes, but for tailwheels and amphibs, sorry but most folks who I meet are not close to qualified
 
Maybe it’s because I don’t own trainer trikes, but for tailwheels and amphibs, sorry but most folks who I meet are not close to qualified

I never implied that many were qualified to fly those types of airplanes. But to believe that the majority of owners have a rational reason to why they don't want someone else flying their airplane, even if the other person is more qualified than the owner, is false. More often than not it seems to be emotion driven, and would be the equivalent of a stranger asking to sleep with your wife. The stranger might find a few people to go along with the idea but most won't.

I can't say that I blame those people who don't want to loan others their airplane either. I didn't buy an airplane to let others use it, I bought an airplane so I can use it. I don't share well, and it doesn't bother me to let it sit for a while. In fact, I haven't flown one of them for close to 3 years now. I've got too many other planes to fly.
 
One last thing to add per insurance, if you’re qualified just get yourself added to their policy, if you’re qualified it won’t change the premiums much if at all, and it’s just safer and cleaner for all.
 
One last thing to add per insurance, if you’re qualified just get yourself added to their policy, if you’re qualified it won’t change the premiums much if at all, and it’s just safer and cleaner for all.
Sure, if you just want to "borrow" the plane from them, because you're friends.
But if you're going to "rent" it from someone, then it's commercial, and the whole dynamics of their policy has to change (and the price goes up).
Been through this recently.
One reason "clubs" are a thing.
 
Sure, if you just want to "borrow" the plane from them, because you're friends.
But if you're going to "rent" it from someone, then it's commercial, and the whole dynamics of their policy has to change (and the price goes up).
Been through this recently.
One reason "clubs" are a thing.
Not always. Some insurers allow a limited number of rentals under their standard owner policy without it going commercial.

Edit: For an example, the "commercial purpose" exclusion in the standard Avemco policy does not apply to:
you being paid by a pilot named in Item 6A of the Data Page for their personal, noncommercial use of your insured aircraft;​

That doesn't mean adding someone to a policy, whether renter or borrower, won't mean a premium surcharge.
 
Last edited:
But, the opportunities do occasionally come up. My experience has been that the opportunities I've gotten have all come from close friends that I have known for quite some time, and the offer to use their planes came from them rather than me asking to borrow or rent them. I have 10 airplanes I could take whenever I want, for the price of gas. (Some of these airplanes are quite unique too - float planes, tailwheel twins, big tire cubs, etc.) I probably have another 2 or 3 that I could use with little more than a phone call. These opportunities have all come as a result of the countless hours I've spent just being at the airport making friends and doing some work here and there.

I agree with this. I happen to rent my airplane to @Tantalum because it is a mutually beneficial situation - I'm not flying the airplane as much as I used to and I prefer it to get more regular use but only by someone I really trust. Compared to the money spent on acquisition and maintenance, a small amount of rental income is not likely to be a huge deal for most people and a small issue (eg failed starter adapter, hangar rash, etc...) can quickly wipe out dozens of hours of rental revenue to fix. Plus, the whole deal is a complicating factor that most owners just don't need. That said, Tantalum and I were friends first and when I realized it would be nice to have the plane fly more, and he was getting tired of beat up club rentals, it made sense for both of us. But I only did it because we were already friends, had flown together and I trust his flying and his care of my airplane. If he had reached out of the blue before we knew each other, I would not have been interested in renting out the plane at all. By the way, we did it the right way with a formal rental agreement and signing him up as a named pilot on my insurance policy (who also have a copy of the rental agreement so it is all 100% legit from their POV). The insurance did go up a bit but Tantalum paid for the increase so it cost me no extra to have him added.

Similarly, I have a dozen or so friends who are Cirrus owners and we are all happy to loan each other our airplanes. If any of them are in the San Diego area and need to borrow my plane, I'll toss them the keys happily. A few months ago, I was in the midwest for a wedding and a side trip so I flew an airliner to Chicago and then borrowed one of my friends' SR22T for 4 days so that I could do all of my stops quickly and efficiently. In all these situations, the common thread is already knowing these people and trusting them. Renting or loaning my plane to strangers is a no go for me.

So that all being said, I'd suggest networking/making friends with local airplane owners and going from there.
 
but I am looking for tips to find that owner who wants to ... rent their ...Cessna 310, a Mooney M20 (ideally C, though an A would be fun too), and a V-tail Bonanza.

What suggestions would experienced pilots have to find this kind of rental?

Put a wanted ad in Barnstormers
 
it is a mutually beneficial situation
It really is.. I get to fly a beautiful airplane.. often the prettiest on the ramp when I fly somewhere.. and in return Rudy gets to come up with me from time to time in a 1970s SkyHawk
 
Sounds like he gets the better part of that deal, flying in a high wing.
hysterical

See this is why I love the Piper Aerostar so much.. it's the perfect compromise between high and low wing!
 
My plane is a high wing, work plane is a low wing, after awhile it’s kinda all the same as far as wing position :)
 
I get requests to rent my Apache (previously owned by FBO and used for training so many folks know the plane)
My answer: Not in this lifetime, not in this galaxy, not in this universe, have a nice day.

When I open my locked hangar I don't have to go looking for damage that mysteriously appeared. The master switch didn't mischievously turn itself on a week ago. My headsets aren't twisted into pretzels by ghosts. And on. And on. That is why I own.
And yes the liability. If my renter stuffs the plane into a local schoolbus with 70 kids on board he does not have not enough insurance to ever cover it. Guess who is on the hook then?
 
My answer: Not in this lifetime, not in this galaxy, not in this universe, have a nice day.
I totally get it. But I do think it comes down to trust.. and renting to the right kind of person. The kind of person that will treat the plane as if it were their own and has a vested interest in keeping it in ship shape. People like that are out there, but I get the hesitance. Personally I would never put my plane into a club.. those planes get rode hard and put away wet. But an arrangement with a handful of people you know well, sure..

When I open my locked hangar I don't have to go looking for damage that mysteriously appeared. The master switch didn't mischievously turn itself on a week ago. My headsets aren't twisted into pretzels by ghosts. And on. And on. That is why I own.
I fly Rudy's Cirrus as if it were my own. Headsets get put away proper, plane gets a wipe down with quick detail, windows get sprayed and cleaned.. it gets put away in proper flying condition..

And yes the liability.
I am officially on the policy and also carry my own very healthy policy.. so the coverage is there. We also have a thorough written and signed agreement. Basically, the way I think about it, if something happens to it while on my watch I'm on the hook for that.. as if I owned it

**anyway, just thought I'd send some input from someone from the receiving (? is that the right word?) end of it
 
I appreciate all of the input. When the time comes closer, I may post a thread or two to find the planes I want to fly. I would mostly look for FBOs, but it's nice to know what is involved with renting from individuals. Even knowing that it would be difficult, I think it will be worth the extra effort to fly the planes I want.
 
If the owner is wise up to what renters insurance means it is marginally meaningful. Renters insurance is important, but it does not really minimize any risk exposure to the owner of the aircraft in any way. It's more peace of mind that if YOU bend an airplane and you are honest and will 'fess up, your insurance company will cut a check to the owner and make things (mostly) right.

I think this needs highlighted more, it's important. I see the common refrain of "I'll just get non-owners insurance and fly some dude's plane" thrown around a lot, and it's certainly marketed that way. You need to, at the very least, meet the open pilot warranty of the owner's policy also. James' answer of "get named on the owner's policy" is definitely the simple way, but be careful here too -- you want to be a Named Insured, not a Named Pilot. Named Insured means they cover you. Named Pilot means they know about you, but can still sue you if you do something stupid and cause them to write stupid checks.

So winning combinations are:

Named Insured (best) - you and the owner are basically sharing the same insurance policy.

Named Pilot (or open pilot warranty met) + Renters Insurance (good, but your coverage is split among two payers who may argue and pay nobody until things play out) -- In some ways this is better than the above, as I believe most will cover the deductible of the owner's insurance too.

Losing combinations are:

"I meet the Open Pilot Warranty" (You can get subrogated against for negligence by the owner's insurance)

"I'm a named pilot on his policy" (no different than the above, really, although verify this with the broker, there is opportunity for nuance -- good brokers know what you want when you ask to be "named" and will do the right thing)

"I bought me a non-owner's policy, let's floss and fly this mofo" -- if you don't meet the owner's open pilot warranty, you are uninsured, and your non-owner's policy doesn't cover a large swath of possible non-negligent damage (bird strike? engine failure off-field landing? wheel fell off on takeoff? nobody's insuring squat, and you or the owner get to pay the towing and cleanup on top of the new plane). The renter's policy will cover you being an idiot. If you fly this way, you are actually better off flying drunk than sober, because now it's all negligent. :) (don't do that, though, obvi)


I'd ask to contact any owner's insurance broker, make him aware of you and what you're doing, and make sure there are no gaps in coverage. The broker is working FOR you, and has no reason to cause trouble or "rat out" the plane owner to his insurance company -- and you can ignore his advice if you wish. Renter's Insurance is not a catch-all.

I'm a rando on the internet, check my facts before you trust your net worth and next decade of financial well-being to my scenarios. But a lot of pilots never think to ask these questions, or never ask them of the right people.

$0.02.

- Mike
 
Last edited:
Back
Top