The 7 Deadly Sins of Radio Communications

Last call is one I find very useful. Same for local landmarks. I figure 95% of our traffic is our CFIs so local landmarks work great. In my experience most pilots wildly misjudge mileage anyway so I always take 3 mile final or 5 mile 45 etc with a big heaping grain of salt.
 
Heftiger said:
I don’t agree with the example for 4.
More than once I have announced my intentions to taxi from the hangar to the run up area (to what I thought was nobody) followed by a position report from a pilot who wasn’t talking. I think it gives people the opportunity to know that somebody is there, moving around, and they need to be talking.
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Sorta like ATITAPA?

And on another front... calling up Tower... "Bugdestroyer 666, RW32 at Alpha, ready to go in sequence"
 
Palmpilot said:
Especially if you like pointless radio transmissions.

So far, I've been able to restrain myself from making a smart-aleck remark.
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I've wanted to say "Promise?" when they say last call... Also "Which active" when someone says "Departing the active"

I've also enjoyed local landmarks... 5 planes in the pattern calling over "Les Schwab"... ok, let me get out my google maps and figure out where Les Schwab is...
 
Palmpilot said:
Who does it benefit, and how does it benefit them?
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Benefits me to hear someone leaving the freq. Improves my SA we have 6 uncontrolled airports within 10 miles of each other and helps me know whos on what freq. So i can deconflict traffic or find out some info. We probably have 15 cfis all buzzing around from 1k to 3.5k ft in the same 10 square mile box just nice to not have to guess whos on what freq.
 
But most of all, avoid some common mistakes. There are a few things that can instantly make you sound less professional–let’s call them the 7 deadly sins of radio communication. These phrases should not be in your aviation vocabulary:

  1. “With you.” If you’re flying cross country, you’ll get switched to a new controller every so often. Sometimes it’s a new approach control or center, sometimes it’s just a new sector in the same facility. Regardless, a check in should be short and sweet: “Cincinnati Approach, Cessna 12345, 4000.” There’s no need to say “with you at 4000.” It seems like a small thing, but it’s wasted airtime and most controllers don’t like it.
  2. Roger is not a read back. If ATC clears you for something, they usually expect a readback of that clearance, just to make sure both sides understand what’s about to happen. Simply saying “roger” may sound cool, but it’s not a readback. If ATC says “Cessna 12345, New York Tower, taxi to runway 22R via Papa, Alpha, hold short of runway 31R,” they want to know that you heard each part of that–in fact, it’s required. “Roger” is going to get you chewed out.
  3. Starting every transmission with “ah…” or “and…” We’re all human, and sometimes the brain freezes when we key the mic. But some pilots regularly start every communication with “ah” or “and,” as if it adds some airline captain quality to the remarks to follow. Don’t do it. Again, airtime is valuable, and there’s no benefit to be gained from these little pauses. Think before you start talking and you’ll be more confident.
  4. TMI (too much information). If you’re at Middle-of-Nowhere Municpal on a Sunday night and there is no tower, nobody needs to know that you’re taxiing from the ramp to taxiway Alpha. Certainly if you’re crossing an active runway or starting your takeoff, a radio call is a good move, but focus on communicating important information. A good question to ask is, “how will this next radio call affect other pilots?” If it won’t, keep quiet. You might tie up the radio for a neighboring airport that uses the same frequency.
  5. Using local landmarks for position reports. Flight instructors are sometimes as guilty as anybody on this one. Imagine you’re inbound to an unfamiliar airport without a control tower. You dutifully call up and say, “Jones Country traffic, Cessna 12345, 3 miles east, 45 for left downwind runway 24.” Anybody who’s a pilot will know exactly where you are and what your intentions are. Now another airplane says, “Jones County traffic, Piper 54321 is over the red barn for downwind.” While locals may know where the red barn is, as a transient pilot you are completely confused by this report. So avoid local landmarks and keep position reports based on distance to the airport.
  6. Using IFR fixes at a non-towered airport. This is the IFR equivalent of number 5, and it’s just as bad (if not worse). You’re a 15-hour student pilot on your first solo when you hear, “Stevens County traffic, Learjet 12345 is at KWIPS on the RNAV approach.” You have no idea what an RNAV approach is, much less KWIPS. Again, it’s a meaningless position report for a VFR pilot. Much better to say, “Stevens County traffic, Learjet 12345 is 5 miles northeast, straight in on the RNAV approach for runway 26.”
  7. “Any traffic in the area please advise.” Certainly the worst of the 7, this one is arrogant, wasteful and should be punishable by prison time. OK, maybe not the last part, but there’s simply no place for this phrase on the radio. You often hear it when an airplane first switches over to CTAF at a non-towered airport. But if want to get an idea of the traffic flow, listen to CTAF on your #2 com radio before switching over. Or, just listen for a minute before announcing your intentions. This takes up far less airtime and is much more considerate. It is not the responsibility of others in the pattern to announce their position every time a new airplane gets close.
I so love this post...
 
I just step-on on the distant Joe Bobs and Berts talking 'bout their wife's hysterectomys on CTAF at nearby airports. Figure (hope?) I'm burning through to the traffic at my destination airport, if I'm closer. . .
 
Larry in TN said:
I've been to both Kwajalein and Wake Island in the DC8.

Diego Garcia is also interesting. Airspace is uncontrolled below FL245.

Most interesting IFR clearances I've ever received was the standard clearing going into Kwaj or Wake. About 200 miles out we'd be Sel-Called by SF Radio with the following, "ATC Clears [callsign] to Cruise FL390 to the Kwajalein airport, Report arrival, Read back." 200nm and SL to 39,000' is a lot of airspace for one airplane...
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I was stationed on Diego Garcia twice. 1979/1980 and 1981. Yep, that DC-8 running the junket out of HNL was a hoot. Sounded like a Saturn V on departure. Good times
 
sarangan said:
Announcing fixes doesn't help anyone, VFR or IFR, except for those who have memorized the fix names. Just say "5 mile out on a straight-in for runway 26". Anyone who is flying a practice approach should know you which fix you are at. Everyone else near the airport would also know what you mean.
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I gotta disagree. We have an RNAV with an hilpt 10 miles out that is crazy busy on weekends. I would much rather hear "82p, practice RNAV 16 UNYTS inbound if I am setting up to enter the hold outbound than "10miles out straight in 16". I agree with you 5 or so miles at the edge of the traffic area. We have a vor approach at the other end, and I like to know if people are entering the hold there as well. Yes, announce if you are x miles out straight in on final.
 
chartbundle said:
I've wanted to say "Promise?" when they say last call... Also "Which active" when someone says "Departing the active"

I've also enjoyed local landmarks... 5 planes in the pattern calling over "Les Schwab"... ok, let me get out my google maps and figure out where Les Schwab is...
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At Santa Paula CA (SZP) they expect to hear calls such as.... Flying Brick XXXXT inbound over the junkyard for 22. The next call is downwind over the golf course for 22. Also, goat mountain gets some airtime lol.... It just depends on the local environment. Although its not illegal, doing a straight in for Rwy 22 or Rwy 4 and you will be executed. Now, that was in the mid 90's through early 2000's so maybe things have changed.
 
Mooney Fan said:
If I am in the pattern and hear an initial check-in say for instance, Bugsmasher OICU812 is 5 miles east, 1500' for a 45 entry etc., I will give my position in the pattern. Tuning in early is key. When receiving flight following I will usually cancel at 15nm and switch to advisory. Just my 2c
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One thing I never seem to hear is the call to unicom for an airport advisory. My primary CFI was an old crusty goat, he always insisted I started with this call when approaching an uncontrolled airport. "East Jesus unicom, bugsmasher 666CF is 10 west at 3000, request airport advisory." And if someone was home at the airport, I'd get relevant information, or someone in the pattern would pipe up, and at the very least, anyone on frequency near the airport knows where I'm coming from. At 5mi, he had me start making position calls to traffic. Seems nobody does airport advisory calls...
 
Heftiger said:
I don’t agree with the example for 4.
More than once I have announced my intentions to taxi from the hangar to the run up area (to what I thought was nobody) followed by a position report from a pilot who wasn’t talking. I think it gives people the opportunity to know that somebody is there, moving around, and they need to be talking.
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I was thinking the same thing. Just because no one else is operating at the airport doesn't mean an inbound isn't monitoring the frequency just like it says to do in #7.
 
Bill Jennings said:
One thing I never seem to hear is the call to unicom for an airport advisory. My primary CFI was an old crusty goat, he always insisted I started with this call when approaching an uncontrolled airport. "East Jesus unicom, bugsmasher 666CF is 10 west at 3000, request airport advisory." And if someone was home at the airport, I'd get relevant information, or someone in the pattern would pipe up, and at the very least, anyone on frequency near the airport knows where I'm coming from. At 5mi, he had me start making position calls to traffic. Seems nobody does airport advisory calls...
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More often than not around here you don't get a response. I think ATIS/ASOS kinda did that in.
 
My only radio complaints are people who call for "any traffic please advise" or "airport advisories". Both of those are just laziness on the pilot's part. Last but not least are people who hold the mic button down while they sort out their thoughts between sentences..
 
Grum.Man said:
My only radio complaints are people who call for "any traffic please advise" or "airport advisories". Both of those are just laziness on the pilot's part.
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Was trained to do airport advisory calls, still do them.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Was trained to do airport advisory calls, still do them.
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Curious for what you are looking for that wouldn't be in your preflight planing or observed by monitoring the frequency before arrival? If anything critical to landing happened between your departure and arrival I'm pretty sure someone would chime in when you call 10 miles out.
 
Bill Jennings said:
One thing I never seem to hear is the call to unicom for an airport advisory. My primary CFI was an old crusty goat, he always insisted I started with this call when approaching an uncontrolled airport. "East Jesus unicom, bugsmasher 666CF is 10 west at 3000, request airport advisory." And if someone was home at the airport, I'd get relevant information, or someone in the pattern would pipe up, and at the very least, anyone on frequency near the airport knows where I'm coming from. At 5mi, he had me start making position calls to traffic. Seems nobody does airport advisory calls...
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I agree. Seems ATC always says Radar services terminated, squawk VFR, Switch to advisory approved or something like that.
 
Calls requesting "airport advisory" are usually met with deafening silence these days, at least at the kind ofairports I usually go to. I agree that AWOS pretty much replaces it these days, but not all airports have AWOS. If there's other traffic in the pattern that's fine and you should listen before you call, but if not and nobody answers you may be reduced to flying over and trying to pick out the wind sock.
 
Bill Jennings said:
One thing I never seem to hear is the call to unicom for an airport advisory. My primary CFI was an old crusty goat, he always insisted I started with this call when approaching an uncontrolled airport. "East Jesus unicom, bugsmasher 666CF is 10 west at 3000, request airport advisory." And if someone was home at the airport, I'd get relevant information, or someone in the pattern would pipe up, and at the very least, anyone on frequency near the airport knows where I'm coming from. At 5mi, he had me start making position calls to traffic. Seems nobody does airport advisory calls...
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I was taught the same too. Now that the AWOS at FGU isn’t worth a darn, if I come over there while the FBO is open (which isn’t often) I’ll try to give them a shout. Rarely does anyone sit in at 1A0 unless a CFI is with a student or something.

I treat it as the standard process:

1. ATIS/AWOS
2. Initial contact
X.
X.....
 
Ryanb said:
I was taught the same too. Now that the AWOS at FGU isn’t worth a darn, if I come over there while the FBO is open (which isn’t often) I’ll try to give them a shout.
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On the weekends the old fellers are there, probably makes their day to answer an advisory call. And the heck with the AWOS, I want the VASI back. This is not a nice airport at night without the VASI.
 
Some of the local fields in the area, upon the initial contact, will reach out with a wind check and whether there are planes in the pattern. Remember, not everyone out there has a radio. Also, upon release from ATC, as part of the release they mention whether any traffic is observed between you and the airport. Nashville Approach is real good about saying whether traffic is in the pattern at John Tune when on an IFR approach
 
Zeldman said:
One thing that bugs me are the people that start speaking and key the mike at the same time, resulting in a big pop in my headset which skeers the holy ned outta me....
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I think something might be wrong with your radio. I'm not sure I've ever experienced this.
 
Is "Roger" an acceptable reply to an altimeter reading? I believe I tried it once, and the tower repeated it like they wanted a readback instead of just a Roger.
 
Pilawt said:
Hearing that more and more, especially from the big flight schools. Apparently some young CFIs at the local puppy mills think it's useful and are teaching it to their students. What's the appropriate response to "Last call" ... "Promise?"
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It’s definitely some new useless crap. We had other older useless crap we taught back in the day.
 
Mooney Fan said:
I was stationed on Diego Garcia twice. 1979/1980 and 1981. Yep, that DC-8 running the junket out of HNL was a hoot. Sounded like a Saturn V on departure. Good times
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When I did it (2010) Diego was a stop between Bahrain and Singapore (Paya Lebar).

F01LA said:
Is "Roger" an acceptable reply to an altimeter reading? I believe I tried it once, and the tower repeated it like they wanted a readback instead of just a Roger.
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A pilot rarely needs to use "roger" because the callsign alone serves the same purpose. "Roger" is more useful to ATC and other ground stations that aren't including their callsign in every transmission. i.e. "[Callsign]" vs. "[Callsign], Roger".
 
I always want to say "And with your spirit" when I hear "With you."

I also want to either respond "Promise?" or "I'll take a double bourbon," to the "Last Call" reports.

"Tally Ho", references to the "Fish Finder", "Looking," etc... should be banned as response to traffic calls.

Years ago we were flying down south somewhere and there was this guy in a Mooney (I swear from the background noise it was probably an M-10 with the window open) who answered every ATC transmission with "There ya go."

I have always wanted to be flying on "Talk Like A Pirate Day" so I can acknowledge transmissions with "Arrrr!"

"Arrr! There be yer button matey."
 
I really don't get hung up on what other pilots have to say. It really doesn't bother me unless they're reading War and Peace; say what you have to say and get off the frequency (that goes for me as a controller and as a pilot). I just wish more pilots in my area spoke understandable English.
 
LongRoadBob said:
As a student pilot currently at a non towered airport...I don't dispite any of this, I am not experienced enough to do that but I can say where some of it comes from.

I'll start from the most understandable reason a student might do it.

7) "any traffic please advise" I'm a low time student right now. When we are about to enter the runway i am so dependent right now, because though my instructor has kind of explained, he hasn't gone into the detail I would like, I am just not getting the big picture yet, so we are a holding alpha, he tells me to turn right, check the skies, turn left (direction we will taxi) check for incoming aircraft, announce to the local "entering and backtracking runway XX For departure" and enter the runway.

This is one of my biggest fears. I haven't put together yet how far away a plane coming for landing might be that could be out of sight for me at the moment and yet if I take too long, I'm in the way of?

I have never uttered phrase number 7 but I feel the desire to do it, and only don't because my instructor knows. But I don't. Alone, I would not do it out of arrogance (not sure why that description crept into the the tirade) but out of being extra careful. I don't know how long after I went over to freq. someone already just announced they are on approach, etc.

I believe that this phrase is redundant and not necessary, but I have a ways to go before I can trust that I know who is where and doing what.

I understand the other ones, and also like them. Local landmarks, IFR phrasing, not good. "Ah...um" not good.

4) this one was on my "cheat sheet" for radio calls one instructor sent me. The same phrase actually. Start up the plane, "xyz traffic, Nxxxx, request radio check 119.1" (ok that makes sense) but then "xyz traffic, nxxxx taxi from hangar to holding alpha" my next instructor said "there is literally nobody else taxing, so this is not necessary" so I get the idea it is situational. There are times when it is good to do of lots of airplanes taxing all around you.

I did wonder if it is acceptable to answer "Roger" for a radio check reply. My nature is to say "thanks" when I get a radio check reply...how do you do that or should you ?

And if you don't get a reply, it could just be nobody else around...so..what? You just assume the radio is ok?
I guess you have to.
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Bob,
In your example regarding #7, when you announce you're taking the runway, that is in essence serving the 'any traffic' purpose, if someone else is out there listening that will conflict they should hear that and call their position. Also, you've been listening to the frequency for a bit while starting up, running up, taxiing, you should have the picture already of anyone on frequency, so you just have the NORDO or someone on the wrong frequency to worry about.
 
Why is it considered wrong\bad or whatever to ask if there's anyone in the area or runway in use when approaching a non-towered airport?
 
FlyBoyAndy said:
Why is it considered wrong\bad or whatever to ask if there's anyone in the area or runway in use when approaching a non-towered airport?
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Because they should be listening to the CTAF far enough out that they would know on their own. It makes one look lazy and/or arrogant if they don't do the homework like everyone else that goes to an uncontrolled airport.
 
ejensen said:
Started hearing that a few years ago. Meaningless noise in my opinion.
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I think the idea is that they feel like they're adding the information that they are changing frequency now, don't expect them to hear you thereafter. ????

BS1 departing the area to the southeast last call

BS2 approaching area from the southeast knows there is traffic and also knows BS1 is not listening to him when he reports inbound.


So, I guess it adds something, but isn't announcing departing the area or pattern implying the same thing. I guess the difference is implying vs. declaring. Its two syllables. :dunno:
 
Dave Theisen said:
If there’s 5 planes in the pattern and they all answer at the the same time, what are you going to do?
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Right, and you get "sdflkjalkjdskfjlbiwejklfjelsflss downwi sdlfksdkjdsflsj base sdlfksdfjsldk..."
 
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