Battery Tender

Undercharged is a different problem. I bet I have more cold weather battery experience than most guys. My batteries work great, but most of the batteries I own are Odysseys. Amazing cold weather output and more amazing storage life.
 
Stewartb said:
Battery Tenders don't have desulphating. Battery Minders do. At least that's true for mine.
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I changed out my Gill this winter for a Concord. I plan on getting a battery minder before winter to put on the Concord. I do fly in the winter but pull the battery and install it before I fly.

I was wondering if the battery minder could possibly bring the Gill back to live. I would use the Gill for things other than the plane.
 
AKBill said:
I changed out my Gill this winter for a Concord. I plan on getting a battery minder before winter to put on the Concord. I do fly in the winter but pull the battery and install it before I fly.

I was wondering if the battery minder could possibly bring the Gill back to live. I would use the Gill for things other than the plane.
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I think the aviation battery minders are set up for each particular battery type unlike the generic automotive battery minders.

I'd try to revive the Gill with a generic battery minder. The voltage spikes will work or not...
 
GlennAB1 said:
I'm pretty sure the Wal-Mart procured BatteryMINDEer killed my 2 year old motorcycle battery. I'm going on about 5 years with my Schumacker maintainer.
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I've never seen BatteryMINDer brand for sale at Walmart, but I suppose that I could have missed it. It is highly doubtful that a properly matched BatteryMINDer would kill any battery, but the one I have has extended the life of my tired batteries by quite a bit.

Of course, there are things that can go awry with a battery which a charger cannot fix.


JKG
 
Stewartb said:
Heat is what kills batteries. Cold preserves them.

Know your battery type and use a charger that's appropriate for the battery. Or get an Odyssey battery and put the maintainer in a box on a shelf.
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Heat may well shorten the lifespan of a battery, but battery performance decreases with temperature. Add the requirement to crank a cold-soaked engine, and a marginal battery which might otherwise seem fine at higher ambient temperatures may not work nearly as well at colder temperatures.

My last two G35 batteries have lasted 7 and 10 years, respectively. I'm not inclined to believe that an AGM battery would do better, though it perhaps would offer the convenience of less maintenance.


JKG
 
Someday I'll have to move someplace cold so I can figure this battery thing out, I guess. ;)

My standard truck battery did get a little weak to start my Duramax after 3 days of -45*. Never a problem at -35. But that was as much about a cold engine as a cold battery.
 
In 5 years, this will all be history. My motorcycle already has a Shorai motorcycle lithium ion battery. They are available for aircraft with special airworthiness certificates.

All of today's batteries are junk in comparison.
 
kgruber said:
In 5 years, this will all be history. My motorcycle already has a Shorai motorcycle lithium ion battery. They are available for aircraft with special airworthiness certificates.

All of today's batteries are junk in comparison.
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Well at least they don't catch fire
 
Stewartb said:
Heat is what kills batteries. Cold preserves them.

Know your battery type and use a charger that's appropriate for the battery. Or get an Odyssey battery and put the maintainer in a box on a shelf.
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Cold "preserves" them only if they remain charged. If you let them go dead a lead acid battery will freeze.
 
kgruber said:
In 5 years, this will all be history. My motorcycle already has a Shorai motorcycle lithium ion battery. They are available for aircraft with special airworthiness certificates.

All of today's batteries are junk in comparison.
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Sounds like the six-pack itching to be replaced with a single glass panel, airplane's without parachutes, airframes that aren't plastic (Riveted aluminum? Tsk, tsk. How archaic), Lycoming/Continental engines, magnetos and wooden props.

Those "junk" lead acid and gel cell batteries will still be in service long after you and I aren't. ;)
 
My A&P told me not to use a trickle charger because that tends to still over charge the battery which will boil the acid/water to evaporate thus killing the battery. But if i were to use one to put a timer on the trickle charger to charge for 5minutes every 5 or so hours. Does this make sense?
 
Lenny said:
My A&P told me not to use a trickle charger because that tends to still over charge the battery which will boil the acid/water to evaporate thus killing the battery. But if i were to use one to put a timer on the trickle charger to charge for 5minutes every 5 or so hours. Does this make sense?
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5 minutes at what current?
 
I have the Battry Tender Plus 1.25 amp output current, 12V
 
Next you need to measure the self-discharge rate of the battery and any "vampire" loads that can't be turned off, like a hardwired clock.

What I'm getting at here, is this is just math... if the battery needs a "top off" you should be able to measure how long it takes to drop to a certain voltage and then know how long it will take to top it off at 1.25A, by knowing what the discharge rate * time. Then it's just putting the same power back into the battery as came out... or kinda... see, lead-acids don't absorb power as readily when they're nearly topped-off, as they can when they're drained...

I suspect that Battery Tender is well above 12V by the way.

At least one battery charger company CLAIMS that because aircraft batteries are a different specific-gravity than car batteries, that you need their special airplane battery version of their automatic charger.

For the record, I've used the Battery Tender Plus for YEARS on non-aviation batteries, and it works well, and is on 24/7... but it has a multi-level charge curve and you need to know if what it does matches what your battery will do, since it's sensing voltage and current based on a regular lead-acid battery's characteristics.

Even so, those batteries do eventually die... it's not a de-sulfating charger, or very "fancy"... it just follows a set voltage curve expectation of typical lead-acid batteries.
 
I don’t use the battery tender like you guys are using it. I know guys that use the terminals on their aircraft battery. If your IA is querky about that remove it, for the annual, then reinstall it. Always use the covers when not in use. Don’t plug it in and leave it. Use a light power timer and turn on the tender for the coolest part of the day for 2or3 hours that’s usually around between 0400 to 0700 in the morning. I’ve had airplane batterys last for 10 years gills and tractor and 6 volt batterys.
 
I never had a mechanic question the battery tenderizer terminals on my battery.
 
AKBill said:
I changed out my Gill this winter for a Concord. I plan on getting a battery minder before winter to put on the Concord. I do fly in the winter but pull the battery and install it before I fly.

I was wondering if the battery minder could possibly bring the Gill back to live. I would use the Gill for things other than the plane.
Click to expand...

It can with a de-sulfating battery charger over several cycles.

Check the Concord site for recommended chargers for your new battery. I personally don't believe in battery minders but do in de-sulfating them once or twice a year. No need to pull it from the plane unless it will be idle for many weeks/months.
 
GlennAB1 said:
I'm pretty sure the Wal-Mart procured BatteryMINDEer killed my 2 year old motorcycle battery. I'm going on about 5 years with my Schumacker maintainer.
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Is that the computerized Schumacher maintainer? Or the old heavy one that is simpler?
I have both types, I was going to start using them. I never have till now.
 
thomasdr72 said:
The Concorde battery guy says only use a real Battery MINDer, everything else in their opinion is junk...
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The Concorde guy has a vested interest:

http://www.concordebattery.com/accessories.php?id=58

Concorde® Battery Corporation`s engineering department worked closely with VDC, makers of the BatteryMINDer®, to develop the new 244CEC1-AA-S5 Charger / Maintainer / Desulfator with optimal charge and maintenance voltages for sealed AGM RG® Series batteries. Concorde conducted extensive testing to determine the ideal float voltage for optimal battery performance with extended battery life. The new settings are incorporated in the S5 model. Long term float testing comparing -S2 and -S5 models revealed that the -S5 setting maintained battery capacity at 100% State-of-Charge (SOC), whereas the -S2 maintained battery capacity at only 85-90% SOC​

That being said, they did work with VDC to develop an expensive but optimized unit that will not damage the Concorde batteries.

I am a big fan of Concorde vs. Gill, but the Concordes are sensitive to damage from over-voltage charging, and Concorde has identified some chargers that will kill their batteries.

http://www.concordebattery.com/otherpdf/sa2.pdf

This service alert pertains to the Battery Tender® brand of battery chargers, made by Deltran Corporation, and to the SuperSmart® brand of battery chargers, also made by Deltran Corporation. The 12 Volt units come in various ratings up to 6 amperes. The 24 volt units come in various ratings up to 3 amperes. These chargers are intended for boost charging and to maintain batteries at a full state of charge. It has come to Concorde’s attention that these chargers are not suitable for use with Concorde’s RG® Series aircraft batteries. The output voltage on these chargers is set too high, resulting in an overcharge condition which may shorten the battery service life. Furthermore, these chargers can fail internally such that the output voltage goes beyond a safe limit (i.e., over 34 volts on a 24 volt battery). This condition can damage the battery in a very short time period and, under certain conditions, lead to thermal runaway.​
 
I called the Battery Tender people, I got the impression they want to discourage using any of their products on Aviation at all.
They didn't want to talk about it. I am sure because of some company's liability phobia regarding aviation.
 
There is some question about aviation batteries which are labeled as 14V, and non aviation batteries that are denoted as 12V. They both have six two volt cells, though the electrolyte is a different specific gravity.

I wonder, I have always used a regular car type charger, though an "automatic" one for my aviation batteries. And I have had problems with battery life, but I wonder if that has anything to do with it.

Or as with all batteries, are they just not made like they used to be?
I had Gill batteries last 7 years 20 years ago, but the last one barely made it three.
 
Well, maybe the plane is denoted 14V (or 28V)
 
Clark1961 said:
... and of course the master switch has one side hot so it can energize the master relay.
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Nope. Check a schematic. The master switch GROUNDS the master contactor's coil; the other coil terminal is hot. Sure, there's voltage at the master switch's coil terminal when it's off, but the coil's resistance is in the way of any charger, and the coil itself is a wave-flattening inductor that would render desulfation inoperative.

The master is wired that way to protect the cabin. If there's a fire, or if the airplane is abiout to be force-landed, the master is turned off to prevent electrical shorts that cause or aggravate fires. If that master wire (which passes through the firewall) was shorted in a crash or fire, all it does is turn the master contactor back on. The contactor's coil loads that wire enough that you won't get spectacular sparks as you would with a shorted hot wire.

If we really did have a battery hot coming into the cabin (like my old Auster did) you'd need a fuse at the battery to protect against shorts, and that fuse, if it blows in flight, shuts off everything, maybe without good reason. If we leave the fuse out and just have a direct hot wire, we really have a fire hazard. If it shorts we can't shut it off. It just glows white-hot until it fuses.

The Cessna R172K has a goofy circuit for the clock. The battery is in the tailcone, and there's a hot wire that runs under the floor all the way up to the clock fuse on the firewall. No fuse at the battery. I can't understand how they ever got that certified. It's a simple mod to add a fuse at the battery.
 
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denverpilot said:
As someone who's seen an undercharged lead acid battery case split when frozen, I'm going to have to say no on that one.
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Cold will slow the aging process. As with everything else, extremes can do damage. Extreme cold will even split a charged battery. Hot weather ages the battery, but the battery performs much better in the warm weather. Chemical reactions happen faster in the heat.

images
 
GRG55 said:
Those "junk" lead acid and gel cell batteries will still be in service long after you and I aren't. ;)
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Maybe, maybe not. As a mechanic, I've been noticing battery life decreasing, and I suspect that recycled lead is the problem. If they're not properly getting the contaminants out of it when they re-smelt it, those contaminants will affect the battery's life and performance.

I think they'll get the lithium battery fire problem licked and we'll soon have better batteries in our cars, at least. Airplanes will take another 40 years or more to catch up. Cleveland recently started making their nosewheels with polymer grease axle seals in them instead of felt, which the automobile industry abandoned in favor of leather seals almost 100 years ago. Leather was replaced by polymer in the '60s or so. The Cleveland main wheels still come with felt seals due to the seal configuration.
 
There was a guy locally that made and recycled batteries.
The lead plates have cavities in them, which is filled with the electrolyte paste. It was pink, as I recall.
He would make a lead grid (I saw him, he used a torch to melt the lead into a mold), and lay that down on a table and fill the grid with the paste, and the use a putty knife to level it off.
And then he said it had to cure. How long? "A year." He tried to let them cure a year. He mostly worked on forklift batteries, stuff like that. But he had made car batteries, and they were the best available back in the day, according to some local guys.
Clearly production batteries are not cured a year, a couple of hours maybe. That is why batteries are much worse life than they were.
It's just very low standards that pervade our society.
 
I would think batteries do not last as long because hours flown by plane have been decreasing.
Look at those who actively fly and maintain the battery. The battery life is not changing.

Tim

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
Dan Thomas said:
I've been noticing battery life decreasing
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In my limited realm, I've noticed the same but have found on my side to be more electrical system condition related vs related to the battery mfg. But from a battery issue point, I've noticed more hard battery failures in recent years than before which maybe tied to mfg issues. All failures were relatively quick and still under warranty.
 
Steevo said:
There was a guy locally that made and recycled batteries.
The lead plates have cavities in them, which is filled with the electrolyte paste. It was pink, as I recall.
He would make a lead grid (I saw him, he used a torch to melt the lead into a mold), and lay that down on a table and fill the grid with the paste, and the use a putty knife to level it off.
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The pink stuff is lead peroxide and forms the positive plates of the battery. The negative plates are lead, which is grey. Working with that stuff by hand is now known to be lethal in the long term.

Aircraft battery plates are extremely thin, only about 1/16" thick. It's the area that matters, mostly, though the plates are made porous to increase their surface area as well. Thinner plates means more of them can be stacked in each cell for maximum surface area. Aircraft batteries need to be light for their capacity, which mandates the thinness of the plates but also makes them more susceptible to failure from excessive vibration or rough handling.
 
Car batteries sure don't last like they used to, so I think this is all over.
Even SLA batteries are not like they used to be. Cheaply made in China and they are lucky to make it two years.
 
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