1960s ASI's show markings in CAS?

mryan75

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mryan75
I have never heard or seen his little nugget anywhere; I came across it yesterday by chance. Can anyone confirm this? If true, does it mean that you don't have to convert IAS to CAS, as that's what it's giving you? No wonder landing a 1966 Cherokee at 80 or 85 indicated produces such bad results (our ASI indeed indicates in MPH).

Airplanes manufactured before the mid-1970s had their airspeed indicator color-coded speed range arcs marked in CAS and shown in miles per hour (mph). (Some were marked in both mph and knots.)

To determine 1.3 Vso at maximum landing weight for airplanes built before the mid- to late 1970s, multiply the calibrated Vso airspeed (given in the owner?s manual or marked at the bottom of the white arc) by 1.3.

http://www.avhf.com/html/Library/FAA-P-8740-49-OnLandings-Part-II.pdf

If this is true, I wonder how many pilots of pre1970s airplanes know this?
 
We used to call it "True Indicated" back then rather than Calibrated.
 
We used to call it "True Indicated" back then rather than Calibrated.
So I don't have to do any conversion? In other words, 55 (bottom of the white arc) times 1.3 is the correct approach speed?
 
Without reading the article, I’m going to guess that it’s a glitch. CAS equals IAS if there is no airspeed system error. Correct?

If so, they must have known something about theses systems that was lost later. Or, the speeds given like Vso are in IAS as read directly from the ASI.

I’m just guessing here to test my own understanding.


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Help me understand this.

1. I think most pilots know if their ASI is giving them knots or mph.
2. Seems we are just talking about the markings. Indicated is still indicated. The difference is that if say Vso is 55 IAS but 58 CAS, then the bottom of the white arc will be 58 on the ASI.
 
Help me understand this.

1. I think most pilots know if their ASI is giving them knots or mph.
2. Seems we are just talking about the markings. Indicated is still indicated. The difference is that if say Vso is 55 IAS but 58 CAS, then the bottom of the white arc will be 58 on the ASI.

This is correct.
 
Help me understand this.

1. I think most pilots know if their ASI is giving them knots or mph.
2. Seems we are just talking about the markings. Indicated is still indicated. The difference is that if say Vso is 55 IAS but 58 CAS, then the bottom of the white arc will be 58 on the ASI.

1. Apparently not that GD Bo’ pilot who thought he was flying 85 knots in the Oshkosh arrival but was flying 85 statute.

2. I was thinking it would be 55 at the bottom of the arc... I may need a refresher.


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...

2. I was thinking it would be 55 at the bottom of the arc... I may need a refresher.


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That is the point of the OP, I guess:
"Airplanes manufactured before the mid-1970s had their airspeed indicator color-coded speed range arcs marked in CAS"
 
That is the point of the OP, I guess:
"Airplanes manufactured before the mid-1970s had their airspeed indicator color-coded speed range arcs marked in CAS"

So then after doing the 1.3 math, you’d have convert your approach speed back to an indicated value in order to use the instrument during the approach(?). I’m still having trouble understanding but very interesting.


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So then after doing the 1.3 math, you’d have convert your approach speed back to an indicated value in order to use the instrument during the approach(?). I’m still having trouble understanding but very interesting.


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What I get from looking at the referenced doc is that you do not want to rely on the white arc for Vso in older aircraft. That would bring you in fast, no?
 
Go up and do some stalls with your typical loads. Document the stall speeds/weight and multiply them by 1.3 for approach speeds. This is how experimental aircraft arrive at their numbers but many, like me, also have AOA that we rely on since it is not affected by weight or CG.
 
What I get from looking at the referenced doc is that you do not want to rely on the white arc for Vso in older aircraft. That would bring you in fast, no?

Without looking at the referenced doc, you would not want to rely strictly on any of the ASI arcs on an aircraft where the CAS values are used. To properly use those values you would need a CAS-IAS conversion table so that you could determine what IAS value you should be flying.

As a practical matter CAS and IAS values tend to diverge at the low end of the speed range so things like Vso is where you’d want to pay most of the attention.


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An airplane can stall at any airspeed, as it is not airspeed that determines a stall.
 
An airplane can stall at any airspeed, as it is not airspeed that determines a stall.

AOA! Here’s a long and somewhat entertaining training film that covers AOA issues. I’m guessing that later fighters are probably a bit less demanding in a fight.


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Go up and do some stalls with your typical loads. Document the stall speeds/weight and multiply them by 1.3 for approach speeds. This is how experimental aircraft arrive at their numbers but many, like me, also have AOA that we rely on since it is not affected by weight or CG.

Agreed on all points.

We pay very little attention to CAS. It’s a measure of how accurate our ASI reads which is a function of how well our pitot static systems work. So how well do our pitot static systems work?

I think the short answer is well enough. There are typically discrepancies and they are not linear up and down the airspeed scale. But they are generally on the order of less than 5 knots and linear enough so going out and doing some stalls in unaccelerated flight, then multiplying by 1.3 to come up with an approach speed is effective.

One place that they aren’t accurate enough is in comparing L/D polars of high performance gliders. The late Dick Johnson was a champion racer, an aeronautical engineer and meticulous assessor of sailplane polars. He demonstrated many times that CAS discrepancies caused many sailplane comparisons based on factory figures to be wrong.

To make an accurate comparison, the first thing he would do is determine calibration errors throughout the pertinent speed range. In pre-GPS times this usually done with a ‘static bomb’ which is a device that is trailed on a line behind the aircraft to measure static pressure. There were always errors, sometimes quite significant (thought <5knots) and they were almost always due to static system errors.

Turns out that pitot pressure measurement is pretty much accurate and non-critical. Static is another matter. Finding a place to tap static atmospheric pressure is difficult. There are few places on an aircraft where punching a hole to measure pressure will result in an accurate measure. And this is on a sailplane with no engine or prop wash and very smooth surfaces.

When experimentals were mentioned it made me think of my own static setup on the RV10. Many RV people use a pop rivet with the shaft removed. Some use a machined disk raised above the skin level a millimeter or two with a hole in the middle. Others simply punch a hole, clean it up and affixed a tube to it. Of course it’s done on both sides of the tailcone in a ‘reasonable looking spot’.

What occurs to me after years of watching Dick Johnson’s work is that none these solutions are particularly accurate, reproducible or necessarily agree with each other except by sheer chance. But its’ probably good enough for SEL experimental work.



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