Plane down in st Louis

timwinters said:
Ummmm...no...

It's really not "a 'burb" and it's definitely not "west".

30 miles or more outside of a town as small as St.Louis isn't a 'burb. STL 'burbs are inside the 141 loop.
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Ok it’s south isn’t it. I was thinking Washington for some reason

I’d still class it as a suburb based on St. Louis distance. I mean you look at towns like Greenville and Cape that refer to themselves as “St. Louis area.”
 
A1Topgun said:
The first airplane I owned was a Cessna 150G, it had a generator. 1967 Cessna has a generator and a "Charge Indicator Light" per the Cessna documentation. So we can sit around and assume all day. Was it generator failure? Did the light come on? was the bulb burned out?
Bottom line: How does a airline pilot end up flying a GA trainer in the dark with no lights?
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The common theme of not one critical error but a series of small errors that magnified exponentially when coupled with a failure
 
A1Topgun said:
The first airplane I owned was a Cessna 150G, it had a generator. 1967 Cessna has a generator and a "Charge Indicator Light" per the Cessna documentation. So we can sit around and assume all day. Was it generator failure? Did the light come on? was the bulb burned out?
Bottom line: How does a airline pilot end up flying a GA trainer in the dark with no lights?
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Exactly, we can take SWAGs all day.

Was it a heart attack or some other sudden debilitating medical event.??
 
Dave Theisen said:
The electrical issue was only the start of the chain. No juice = no way to turn the runway lights on. Then decided to try to land anyway.
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Handheld com? Who doesn't carry an emergency handheld com? A headlamp, backup headlamp or flashlight, portable com, and backup source of navigation are required equipment for night flight. The backup com and navs are required for all XC flight. It shouldn't have come down to a cell phone call for a flashlight at the end of the runway. Very strange for someone with plenty of flight experience.
 
chemgeek said:
Handheld com? Who doesn't carry an emergency handheld com? A headlamp, backup headlamp or flashlight, portable com, and backup source of navigation are required equipment for night flight. The backup com and navs are required for all XC flight. It shouldn't have come down to a cell phone call for a flashlight at the end of the runway. Very strange for someone with plenty of flight experience.
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All good points. Heck, I carry a handheld on all my flights. Not to mention 40lbs of survival gear including 2 light sources.
 
chemgeek said:
A headlamp, backup headlamp or flashlight, portable com, and backup source of navigation are required equipment for night flight.
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I am confused here. Did something new come out in the regs that I missed.??

91.205 (c) VFR night ops.

  • F- Fuses
  • L- Landing light
  • A- Anticollision lights
  • P- Position Lights
  • S- Source of electrical energy
 
chemgeek said:
Handheld com? Who doesn't carry an emergency handheld com? A headlamp, backup headlamp or flashlight, portable com, and backup source of navigation are required equipment for night flight. The backup com and navs are required for all XC flight. .
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You have a reference for all that “required” stuff you mentioned? Been flying over 44 years and don’t recall reading that. :confused:
 
The only in-flight emergency I've ever had was in a 1966 C-150F in 1967 when the instrument lighting rheostat (this was long before solid state dimmers) caught fire and filled the cabin with acrid smoke. I could hardly breathe and the smoke was burning my eyes. It was at dusk over McCarran (Las Vegas), and I lost the instrument lighting in the airplane and declared an emergency on the McCarran tower frequency. I was immediately cleared to land, and as soon as able after touching down I turned off the runway onto a taxiway, shut down, and got out so I could breathe some fresh air. I was damn lucky to be over a major airport with good runway lighting when it happened. Seconds after I shut down two fire trucks were there.

It shook me up.
 
Zeldman said:
I am confused here. Did something new come out in the regs that I missed.??

91.205 (c) VFR night ops.

  • F- Fuses
  • L- Landing light
  • A- Anticollision lights
  • P- Position Lights
  • S- Source of electrical energy
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Not talking about FAA regs. Talking about personal safety requirements. Who flies XC at night without backup cockpit lighting, nav, and com? If you are, why? I don't fly without these items.
 
chemgeek said:
Not talking about FAA regs. Talking about personal safety requirements. Who flies XC at night without backup cockpit lighting, nav, and com? If you are, why? I don't fly without these items.
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Me.

I carry a flashlight, but my backup NAV is the mag compass and my watch, and backup comm isn’t necessary for my personal flying.
 
chemgeek said:
Not talking about FAA regs. Talking about personal safety requirements. Who flies XC at night without backup cockpit lighting, nav, and com? If you are, why? I don't fly without these items.
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Ahhhh.... my mistake. I read it as if you were saying it was an FAA requirement.

I carry a couple flashlights, one white light, one blue light. As for everything else, it is all neatly packaged in my cell phone. Which has numbers in speed dial to call center, approach and towers, even clearance delivery. it will also point me to the nearest airport. And this is from the last man on earth to get a smart phone. My flight bag is my headset bag.
 
I always carry a backup handheld radio. It’s a small investment that could have saved this guys life and his sons.


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Peter Anderson said:
I always carry a backup handheld radio. It’s a small investment that could have saved this guys life and his sons.


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Yep; I bought one 'cuz I had an old plane with two "Dolly Parton" Narcos (tubes and all!) I kept it with me even when we put in a KX-155.
 
I don’t carry a backup radio. But have been considering it. 200 bucks is cheap for an effective backup. This might be the story to push me to invest. While there were potentially a lot of issues that lead to this unfortunate outcome I would like think that not being prepared for the electrical failure is the only one I don’t have an answer for and IMO was the one lapse that lead to a fatal outcome. I likely would have not flown an unfamiliar plane at night for the first time or pushed to get into home base no matter what. I used to get freaked out about reading accident reports but they really can serve as a learning mechanism.
 
benyflyguy said:
I don’t carry a backup radio. But have been considering it. 200 bucks is cheap for an effective backup. This might be the story to push me to invest. While there were potentially a lot of issues that lead to this unfortunate outcome I would like think that not being prepared for the electrical failure is the only one I don’t have an answer for and IMO was the one lapse that lead to a fatal outcome. I likely would have not flown an unfamiliar plane at night for the first time or pushed to get into home base no matter what. I used to get freaked out about reading accident reports but they really can serve as a learning mechanism.
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Craigslist now has an "aviation items for sale" category. Right before starting my instrument training, I found a Yaesu FTA550 handheld nav/com, practically new, for $100. I consider it necessary any time I fly IFR, and I think I'll add nighttime as a necessary time as well.
 
tawood said:
Craigslist now has an "aviation items for sale" category. Right before starting my instrument training, I found a Yaesu FTA550 handheld nav/com, practically new, for $100. I consider it necessary any time I fly IFR, and I think I'll add nighttime as a necessary time as well.
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Yep, been meaning to get one anyway for a while. Some deals to be had out there...
 
To th OP.
I have a Icom A24 nav com. I have no need for the nav feature. In 8 years I’ve needed it twice, both times I lost the alt or gen. My plane has a spare antenna and in the rental I just used the radio’s antenna. Once it even got me into my home class D airport. They’ve also great to call for fuel before a flight.
 
labbadabba said:
Dolly Parton Narcos? As in they had huge...knobs?
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Yep.
vintage-narco-mark-12-radio-aircraft-nav-airplane-plane-part-rare-avionics_292628904532.jpg
 
Seriously one of the stupidest things I have heard. “ honey, drive to the airport with a flashlight and stand at the end”. Unfortunate he took his his son out with him.
 
TommyG said:
Seriously one of the stupidest things I have heard. “ honey, drive to the airport with a flashlight and stand at the end”. Unfortunate he took his his son out with him.
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Darwin Award candidate??
 
IMO, his first mistake was ferrying a newly purchased USED 150 at night. I recently ferried a new S-LSA from CA to NY and didn’t even think of flyin it after dark. Maybe it’s just me.
Condolences to the family.
 
timwinters said:
Festus is a 2200' sidewalk ...
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Yes, and trees and terrain are near the runway.

After a quick look at the AFD and a topo map,I decided I would not want to land any plane at that field at night. Too much risk.
http://aeronav.faa.gov/afd/13sep2018/nc_225_13SEP2018.pdf
https://goo.gl/maps/f48dfhzAZ3k

This pilot chose to do it at 2 am, with no lights, an unfamiliar plane, and a passenger — that is way too much risk.

I guess he could have gone to Parks (St Louis Downtown, KCPS), it's a class D field that would have been lit up. It's about 25 miles NNE
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Get-there-itis is a perennial problem.

No doubt diverting to the big field at KCPS would have been much better. It does have some obstructions nearby but it is much better than where this man killed his son. STL is still better, with nothing to hit. The landing fee is way better than dying.
 
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Not every nontowered airport has pilot-controlled lighting. Bismark, 28 miles south, has runway lights that are on all the time from sunset to sunrise. It pays to know what the symbols on the chart mean.
 
dmspilot said:
Not every nontowered airport has pilot-controlled lighting. Bismark, 28 miles south, has runway lights that are on all the time from sunset to sunrise.
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Yeah, but Bismarck is just as narrow as Festus and even shorter. Also, their lights are...well...let's just say...less than reliable. There's only like 3 or 4 planes on that field so it's not a thriving aviation center that's impeccably maintained. When I was based at H88 I'd do short round-robin cross-country flights for night proficiency. H88-PCD-FES-8WC-H57-FAM-H88. More often than not I'd have to skip Bismarck (H57) because the lights weren't on.
dmspilot said:
It pays to know what the symbols on the chart mean.
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It also pays to have local knowledge.
 
It pays to recognize and manage an emergency as an emergency; this requires critical aeronautical decision-making above all considerations and inconveniences (not directly evident, but I think we're all thinking of such). If safety ever seems inconvenient, try an accident.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Crap like this is why I don’t ferry airplanes at night.
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Crap like this and my experience below are why I don't so SE night XC's, just local night flying where I know the terrain and airports.

A1Topgun said:
If you lose the alternator you have about 20 to 30 minutes before the battery goes dead. If you lose the alternator you have 20 to 30 minutes land at the first available lighted airport.
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Correct, and you get that 20-30 only if the battery is in top shape. The older battery, the earlier lights go out...

Fearless Tower said:
That’s assuming you notice you lost the alternator....
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Well, for me it went like this. Ammeter needle swings wildly back and forth several times, then shows severe discharge. 30 seconds later, get HIGHLOWVOLTS on the annunciator panel. Call center, apprise them of the situation, and then divert. Elbow your partner, who is sleeping soundly in the right seat, and have him turn off unnecessary avionics and then start pulling unneeded breakers to shed load.

Once in the diversion airport environment, note that you still have zots and put the gear down, so you don't have to start the lawnmower 50 times. Lastly, in a fit of brilliance, click the mic 7 times to get the PCL up. On downwind, watch as everything still lit on the panel flickers twice, and then darkness. On final, be thankful you got the PCL up. After landing, be thankful the weather was VFR. Call a cab, get a hotel, then get a beer. Or several.

Next day, CAVU, beautiful morning, no mechanic on field. Actually a pretty deserted field. Find battery had recovered enough overnight to run the boost pump and start the engine. Pretend you're a NORDO cub, avoid all airspace where you have to squawk/talk, and fly peg leg to facility with mechanic.

Vow not to fly SE XC at night again.
 
RyanShort1 said:
And a regular airline pilot that doesn't have a ton of recent GA experience could easily mis-judge a flare and such in daylight conditions, much less night in a new plane without runway lights. Seen plenty of that.
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This is a very sad deal. As someone who works in the airline industry, the fact that he was an AA pilot does not mean much. You ask these guys who have been flying a 777 for the past 10 years how they would feel hopping in a 152 at night and most of them would say no way. Very different kind of flying. You lose that "seat of the pants" experience. I would not be surprised if the in experience in a small airplane plays into this. RIP.
 
TommyG said:
Seriously one of the stupidest things I have heard. “ honey, drive to the airport with a flashlight and stand at the end”. Unfortunate he took his his son out with him.
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I have landed on strips in Alaska in winter, at night, using a snow machine at each end of the strip to mark it. Well within my experience level at the time. Some of those strips were not straight. Risk assessment form was filled out and I had approval from the chief pilot.

Then again, I do not know the accident pilots proficiency level in small planes. I can't say if I would have tried landing at the accident airport or not without actually looking at it.
 
96af38b932b6adb9ab9aeb4b0754ec48.png


118 foot drop off at the end of the runway would be sketchy at night period. Without lights forget about it. RIP. Very sad.


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Preliminary report out:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/search?q=Festus

It would appear the pilot departed after dark with knowledge of a malfunctioning electrical system. A handheld radio was available but was unable to operate PCL. (Possibly weak batteries?) Airport lighting was functional and could be turned on manually from the ground by a knowledgeable person, but was not. Lots of links in an unfortunate decision chain. Ugh.
 
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