PPL Privileges and Carrying of Passengers

Mooney Fan

Mooney Fan

Line Up and Wait
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Mooney Fan
I'm wallowing around in the grey area of compensation for hire and wan't to avoid any issues. I don't have a commercial rating but my friend needs to attend a business function and asked if we could fly my plane up for it. As long as there is no compensation, and no cost sharing of flight expenses, it would be OK to make the flight with my PPL? Or since he asked, is that considered 'hire' even though nothing of value is exchanged for the flight? Thx in advance for your input
 
Mooney Fan said:
I'm wallowing around in the grey area of compensation for hire and wan't to avoid any issues. I don't have a commercial rating but my friend needs to attend a business function and asked if we could fly my plane up for it. As long as there is no compensation, and no cost sharing of flight expenses, it would be OK to make the flight with my PPL? Or since he asked, is that considered 'hire' even though nothing of value is exchanged for the flight? Thx in advance for your input
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Think about common purpose. Would you be making this trip without the pax?
 
The FAA considers flight time as compensation. Say no more.

Bob
 
You’ll get many opinions on this, but here’s what I say...

You own the airplane, so you can choose what you do with it, as long as no money is physically exchanged. Whatever else happens is nobody’s business.

Don’t ask— don’t tell.
 
Mooney Fan said:
I'm wallowing around in the grey area of compensation for hire and wan't to avoid any issues. I don't have a commercial rating but my friend needs to attend a business function and asked if we could fly my plane up for it. As long as there is no compensation, and no cost sharing of flight expenses, it would be OK to make the flight with my PPL? Or since he asked, is that considered 'hire' even though nothing of value is exchanged for the flight? Thx in advance for your input
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It can be funny how some ppl will come out of they woodworks and just ask.
 
Now what if his friend was bemoaning about a trip and the ppl just offered to take him up. No compensation. Maybe the ppl needs to log some xc time anyway
 
bobmrg said:
The FAA considers flight time as compensation. Say no more.

Bob
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The FAA also says that I should wear my shoulder belt while I taxi over to the fuel pump or down to the run-up area, but I don’t always do that.
 
Mooney Fan said:
As long as there is no compensation, and no cost sharing of flight expenses
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bobmrg said:
The FAA considers flight time as compensation. Say no more.
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The FAA does not consider flight time that you pay for as compensation...you cannot compensate yourself. Lots of people knee jerked into that one.

Good to fly. Without compensation, 61.113 does not enter into it.

Now let's have 30 more followups warning about compensation, even though the OP has said "no compensation".
 
Ryanb said:
All he needs to do is find something interesting at the destination. ‘Hey they have a Chick-fil-a there, I want to go to XYZ and eat there!’

Bam! Now they share a common purpose.
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Finding common purpose after the fact has been stated there is no common purpose is a little disingenuous in my book, and it’s a slippery slope.

But, I’m not the PIC.

Were I the PIC in this scenario, and my friend said hey, I’ve got business somewhere else next week, can you fly me up there, here’s how I’d approach it.

Buddy, if I wasn’t already planning to head up there, I can’t do that. But, since I was let’s see if our schedules work out. Gotta warm you though, I can’t guarantee we will make it up there, so if you absolutely have to be there you need to keep that in mind.
 
Mooney Fan said:
I'm wallowing around in the grey area of compensation for hire and wan't to avoid any issues. I don't have a commercial rating but my friend needs to attend a business function and asked if we could fly my plane up for it. As long as there is no compensation, and no cost sharing of flight expenses, it would be OK to make the flight with my PPL? Or since he asked, is that considered 'hire' even though nothing of value is exchanged for the flight? Thx in advance for your input
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You are fine if what is quoted in red is accurate. No regulatory issues at all.
 
TCABM said:
Finding common purpose after the fact has been stated there is no common purpose is a little disingenuous in my book, and it’s a slippery slope.

But, I’m not the PIC.

Were I the PIC in this scenario, and my friend said hey, I’ve got business somewhere else next week, can you fly me up there, here’s how I’d approach it.

Buddy, if I wasn’t already planning to head up there, I can’t do that. But, since I was let’s see if our schedules work out. Gotta warm you though, I can’t guarantee we will make it up there, so if you absolutely have to be there you need to keep that in mind.
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That’s a good call. Not sure what part of the country you hail from but there’s always the possibility that the weather won’t agree.
 
TCABM said:
Finding common purpose after the fact has been stated there is no common purpose is a little disingenuous in my book, and it’s a slippery slope.

But, I’m not the PIC.

Were I the PIC in this scenario, and my friend said hey, I’ve got business somewhere else next week, can you fly me up there, here’s how I’d approach it.

Buddy, if I wasn’t already planning to head up there, I can’t do that. But, since I was let’s see if our schedules work out. Gotta warm you though, I can’t guarantee we will make it up there, so if you absolutely have to be there you need to keep that in mind.
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lol... I did tell him hey we're VFR, its a Cherokee 140 w/Single NAV/COM sloshing along at 107 kts, no promises
 
Mooney Fan said:
I have nothing to hide. I wont make an illegal flight, thus the question.
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What I mean is when I got my ppl, and recently when restarting and buying into a small club, I have friends, and some casual acquaintances that I wouldn’t call friends, just come out and ask to be flown all over.
I had recently someone ask for me to pick them up in DC and fly them to north of Boston for the day. Her and her two kids one 6 and other 2yo!! Then home that night!!! I told her she was crazy.
 
TCABM said:
Buddy, if I wasn’t already planning to head up there, I can’t do that.
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Why not?

Common purpose goes to defining holding out, but has nothing to do with compensation. Absent compensation, the entire assumption that it could become a commercial flight falls apart. You're just a pilot giving a guy a ride in your airplane.
 
Yes it does. You don't qualify for two of those.
 
bflynn said:
Why not?

You're just a pilot giving a guy a ride in your airplane.
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There’s an entire conversation I wasn’t privy to that resulted in the OP asking the question.

My experience in situations like this is there ends up being some sort of quid pro quo being brought up. Lunch gets bought. A bottle of whiskey shows up at the end of the trip.

But finally, I’m just not in the business of making trip decisions based on someone else asking me to shuttle them to a meeting for that guy to further his business.
 
"Well Mr. Inspector, he didn't tell me he happened to have a business meeting there that day!"

Sheesh. Wear a thong. Big girl panties seem to get wadded all up.
 
As has been said, OP is paying for the flight so he's not being compensated flight time, he's paying for it. But what I think Bob might have meant is that the FAA says that the goodwill earned by performing the flight can be considered compensation. Not that I agree with it--I don't believe in thought crimes.
 
Mooney Fan said:
I'm wallowing around in the grey area of compensation for hire and wan't to avoid any issues. I don't have a commercial rating but my friend needs to attend a business function and asked if we could fly my plane up for it. As long as there is no compensation, and no cost sharing of flight expenses, it would be OK to make the flight with my PPL? Or since he asked, is that considered 'hire' even though nothing of value is exchanged for the flight? Thx in advance for your input
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Dont over think things
 
benyflyguy said:
I haven’t heard of that before could you please elaborate a bit more??
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I agree with ryanb. However...

This article is far from a citation of an Opinion from the Office of the General Counsel, but it will do for the moment. My Summit Aviation database has opinions from 1977 to the present and I am not about to begin a month-by-month search for documentation supporting the AOPA article.

www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/december/02/compensation-the-faa-knows-it-when-they-see-it

Bob
 
I would really like to meet the one guy in the FAA that worries that pilots may be getting anything from their friends and/or family in exchange for a flight.

Freakin' ridiculous. :rolleyes2:
 
bobmrg said:
I agree with ryanb. However...

This article is far from a citation of an Opinion from the Office of the General Counsel, but it will do for the moment. My Summit Aviation database has opinions from 1977 to the present and I am not about to begin a month-by-month search for documentation supporting the AOPA article.

www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/december/02/compensation-the-faa-knows-it-when-they-see-it

Bob
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Your last flight caused me to feel good will toward you. I’m going to report you to the faa.

*just trying to make a point.
 
TCABM said:
There’s an entire conversation I wasn’t privy to that resulted in the OP asking the question.

My experience in situations like this is there ends up being some sort of quid pro quo being brought up. Lunch gets bought. A bottle of whiskey shows up at the end of the trip.

But finally, I’m just not in the business of making trip decisions based on someone else asking me to shuttle them to a meeting for that guy to further his business.
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Nobody in the FAA is worrying about a friend buying a friend lunch.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I would really like to meet the one guy in the FAA that worries that pilots may be getting anything from their friends and/or family in exchange for a flight.

Freakin' ridiculous. :rolleyes2:
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Yes it is ridiculous and I do not know any ASIs who gaf about small technical infractions in this arena. They are too busy building cases against the 134 1/2 types who try to hide under fraudulent dry leases.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I would really like to meet the one guy in the FAA that worries that pilots may be getting anything from their friends and/or family in exchange for a flight.

Freakin' ridiculous. :rolleyes2:
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Yep it’s completely asinine, which is why I suggested the ‘don’t ask—don’t tell’ rule. I’m an honest person by all measures, but when it comes to what I choose to do behind closed doors (ie, in my own private aircraft) is my own business.
 
If you intend to give a friend a free ride somewhere, then I don’t understand why you are asking this.
 
dmspilot said:
As has been said, OP is paying for the flight so he's not being compensated flight time, he's paying for it. But what I think Bob might have meant is that the FAA says that the goodwill earned by performing the flight can be considered compensation. Not that I agree with it--I don't believe in thought crimes.
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Yes, but goodwill requires something. Merely engendering friendship is not goodwill. Otherwise pilots could never fly with anyone.

Did I say just 30 follow up posts?

texasclouds said:
If you intend to give a friend a free ride somewhere, then I don’t understand why you are asking this.
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Probably because so many get this messed up.
 
bflynn said:
Yes, but goodwill requires something. Merely engendering friendship is not goodwill.
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You are giving them something by flying them somewhere they want to go, isn't that the whole point of this discussion? What else is required?
 
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