Just Started Training, Already Concerned

Jesse Jetty

Jesse Jetty

Filing Flight Plan
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Sep 20, 2018
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Jesse Jetty
I started my training August 27. I’m going through a community college and the program will take me from no experience to commercial and CFII. Last week I took my first flight. I thought it went pretty well. It was short, but informative and uneventful in a good way. Today I took my second flight. Different instructor, different plane and it was terrible. I was unbelievably stressed and couldn’t seem to do anything right. I was just overwhelmed with following instruments, looking outside and doing pattern work and touch and goes. To make matters worse, the instructor would basically take over without saying anything. I’m still not sure how much I actually even did today. Back on the ground, we’re discussing how things went and he’s subtly trying to start the “maybe this isn’t for you” talk. He also keeps emphasizing that I have to stay on schedule with the school’s setup or my GI Bill will quit paying. I know it was a rough day, but I want this way too badly to consider quitting. After 2 flights, im less than 1.5 hours of actual flight time. To me this seems premature to be telling someone to reconsider their dream. Is this the norm and I’m just being a baby, or do I have reason to be concerned?
 
Pattern work with touch and goes on the second flight, great idea. :rolleyes: As this was a Part 141 school, I highly doubt this was prescribed by the syllabus. What does it actually say?

Why did you fly with a different instructor on your second flight? Don't do that. Maybe you should try the first one again.

Oh and what do you mean different plane? Different example of the same model, or different model?
 
Hoooo boy. Different instructor, different plane (different type I am assuming), second lesson. Seems a bit much to expect from you imo.
I would avoid the folks dispensing career advice after two flights. Perhaps concentrate on hanging with instructors that are capable of actually teaching.
 
dmspilot said:
Pattern work with touch and goes on the second flight, great idea. :rolleyes: As this was a Part 141 school, I highly doubt this was prescribed by the syllabus. What does it actually say?

Why did you fly with a different instructor on your second flight? Don't do that. Maybe you should try the first one again.

Oh and what do you mean different plane? Different example of the same model, or different model?
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No choice on instructor. We get whoever is working that day. I’m not sure what they syllabus said, he didn’t let me read it. I do know he seemed irritated because he’d wanted to work on slow flight and put what he called foggles on me but we didn’t get to it because of my issues.
 
GRG55 said:
Hoooo boy. Different instructor, different plane (different type I am assuming), second lesson. Seems a bit much to expect from you imo.
I would avoid the folks dispensing career advice after two flights. Perhaps concentrate on hanging with instructors that are capable of actually teaching.
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The bad part is this guy is the chief instructor. Same type of plane (Cherokee), but ones a ‘65 with power everything and the other is an ‘81 that I’m surprised I didn’t have to hand prop.
 
Jesse Jetty said:
To make matters worse, the instructor would basically take over without saying anything.
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I hate when they do that. Unfortunately, you're not in a position to fire an inept instructor, being in a college program. I'm afraid you need to tough it out. Try to explore ways to fly with a better instructor. Bribery or otherwise buttering up the people who do the scheduling might just do the trick.
 
The guy I flew with today makes the schedule. He’s the assistant chief instructor.
 
Jesse Jetty said:
No choice on instructor. We get whoever is working that day. I’m not sure what they syllabus said, he didn’t let me read it. I do know he seemed irritated because he’d wanted to work on slow flight and put what he called foggles on me but we didn’t get to it because of my issues.
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Take your business elsewhere.
 
14 CFR 141.93
(a) The holder of a pilot school certificate or a provisional pilot school certificate must, at the time a student is enrolled in an approved training course, furnish that student with a copy of the following:
(1) A certificate of enrollment containing—
(i) The name of the course in which the student is enrolled; and
(ii) The date of that enrollment.​
(2) A copy of the student's training syllabus.
​
Emphasis added.
He wouldn't let you look at the syllabus that he's required to give you a copy of, what a winner.
 
Jesse Jetty said:
No choice on instructor. We get whoever is working that day.
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Whaaaa?? I've never heard of such a thing, that's ridiculous. (A college program thing?) You want to fly with the same instructor consistently, so he or she can get to know you, what you can do and what's the right "pace", from flight to flight. Sounds like Second Guy wanted to "up the pace" way too soon. Fundamentals first. Instruments and foggles come later...

Jesse Jetty said:
To me this seems premature to be telling someone to reconsider their dream. Is this the norm and I’m just being a baby, or do I have reason to be concerned?
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Agree. No, no, and yes, respectively.
This is not typical.
Ignore the disparaging/bullying career advice from Second Guy.
Explore your options.
 
Seemed odd to me. I was at a whopping total of .7 hours before today and it seemed like he was throwing a lot at me all at once
 
Sounds like a badly.... VERY VERY BADLY constructed syllabus... take your money and RUN... learning to fly is something that is done with a eye dropper, not a fire hose... those instructors are NUTS!!!!
 
dmspilot said:
14 CFR 141.93
(a) The holder of a pilot school certificate or a provisional pilot school certificate must, at the time a student is enrolled in an approved training course, furnish that student with a copy of the following:
(1) A certificate of enrollment containing—
(i) The name of the course in which the student is enrolled; and
(ii) The date of that enrollment.​
(2) A copy of the student's training syllabus.​
Emphasis added.
He wouldn't let you look at the syllabus that he's required to give you a copy of, what a winner.
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I got one initially, but they took it the day of my first flight. It sits on a shelf in the briefing room and the instructors mark stuff off after a lesson.
 
The world if full of terrable CFI's. Many people become CFI's as a way to build hours towards their airline career. They have no real interest in being a teacher, and sometimese are terrable teachers. Find a CFi that works for you. Remember, your the customer here. Your bringing the money. demand you fly with CFI's that work for your style of learning. Get a copy of the syllabus, review it before your lessons so you are familiar with what you are going to be doing. If the CFi is not teaching the syllabus, call him out on it.
 
Jesse, sounds like you had a tough experience. I’d say hang in there and give the place a third go.

From my experience on training, no pilot feels like they know anything after 2 lessons and I certainly needed many more hours before anything I was learning made sense. Give yourself a chance. If this school though, is adding to the issues by encouraging you to think about if this is right for you, the school actually may be doing you a favor. I was not there, but if the instructor noticed personality traits that you have( did you freeze up when things went wrong? Did you get defensive when offered advice? Did you get angry with the instructor and then actively avoid his instruction?— these are specific questions because at some point in training you will learn about some personal traits that can be risk factors for pilots.) Again, don’t quit,but there is some credence to the idea that the instroctor may not want you to sink lots of money into this, even if it’s your GI money, before concluding you are not cut out for this. Just a thought and it’s impossible for me to know.

Multiple instructors during training is not always a bad thing. I had 3 different guys during my training. All had their own style and I appreciated that. The school did this so it was easier for me to schedule flights on my own time. Having 3 instructors meant I could get a fresh perspective and learn new tips when I would fly with a new instructor. I thought it was great and I took knowledge from each of them and I think it made me a good pilot.
 
I was nervous, but I was not argumentative or defensive. I’m a commercial driving instructor by trade so I know how stressful it can be on both sides. I didn’t mean to sound like I was complaining about multiple instructors, just that at this stage, it threw me off. I’m not considering quitting at all, I’m just concerned with this pace.
 
Relax. No student on their second flight gets it all perfect. It is going to take several flights before you put it together.

It sounds to me like they have a system of high intensity flight training. Take it as a challenge and step up.
 
Sounds like you where getting a phase check ,very early in your training.
 
I told my kids when they started college that they were the customer and the teachers were the service provider and not to forget that when dealing with them. You have been in the service so you are not a kid but the principle still applies. This doesn't mean be disrespectful but it does mean you demand what what you need from these people and don't let them intimidate you. The first thing you need to get is the syllabus. Foggles and flying by instruments is stupid after .7 hours, knowing the syllabus will allow you to challenge that by saying something like Foggles? Why would we do that before stalls, slow flight, turns, steep turns climbs descents or whatever. I suspect the program is over enrolled and they are trying to get people into other things. That's not your problem. Work hard, do the book work, very important, chair fly, and make the instructor follow the syllabus. Try not to be nervous, it makes it more difficult, the instructor is there to keep you safe, remember that. And be sure, in a respectable way to let the instructor know that you expect him to work as hard as you to get you through, you are not quitting.
 
Second flight you shouldn’t be doing anything but practicing level flight and turns at a safe 3500’ agl. And yes it should seem overwhelming with all of the guages. Learning what they mean and where they are located is tough at first.

You shouldn’t be doing pattern work until about 9 hrs or when you are ready. I would file a complaint on the second cfi. Dont book with him again.
 
Early for pattern work unless it was just the one landing. I don’t think the OP was doing attitude instrument flying but was referring to the instruments and trying to interpreting them and looking outsidemaybe?

I use Gleim’s syallabus which is also set up for 141 as well as 61. The lessons are the same except for the Stage Checks and maybe a few additional lessons. The third lesson introduces attitude instrument flying, and almost all my students have no difficulty with it. Why on earth don’t they provide you with a syllabus, at least a copy of the one on the shelf. You have to know where you stand and what the next lesson will cover so you can prepare.

I dunno, if it’s your dream then just stick with it. Maybe the CFI had a bad day for some reason. Maybe try to find out what days the CFI you liked is instructing and fly on those days?
 
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Figure out when the first CFI flies and only schedule for those days. Either that or tell the second guy to sick the foggles somewhere uncomfortable until you learn what all of the instruments do and how they operate.
 
Jesse Jetty said:
No choice on instructor. We get whoever is working that day. I’m not sure what they syllabus said, he didn’t let me read it. I do know he seemed irritated because he’d wanted to work on slow flight and put what he called foggles on me but we didn’t get to it because of my issues.
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Part 141 requires that you be given a copy of the syllabus. Talk to the chief instructor.

Bob
 
Second Guy *is* the chief instructor, if I read right.
So tread carefully with him, and talk to others as well.
 
FAR 141.93 is the reg governing providing a copy of the syllabus. It would be worth your while to visit www.faa.gov and read Part 141 in its entirety in order to learn the school's responsibility to you. From what you have said, they may be cutting corners.

Bob
 
Jesse Jetty said:
I got one initially, but they took it the day of my first flight. It sits on a shelf in the briefing room and the instructors mark stuff off after a lesson.
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It is your property, not theirs, under 141.93. Tell them to give it back. This sounds like a very flaky 141 operation.

Bob
 
foggles and patter work on the second flight? Geez, I think that's waaaay to early in training.
My CFI wouldn't let me land the plane until I was skilled enough to fly the thing straight and level and be able to do coordinated turns.
He would do the one landing at the end of each lesson and I would ride the controls with him, but actual landing practice and patter work did not come until much much later.
Why is the second CFI rushing things? It's not like you have a deadline.

Oh, and the second CFI after just 1! lesson with you telling you this might not be for you is just plain rude. Even if he flew with you twice, no way in hell he would be able to deduce whether flying is for you or not.
And even if flying wasn't for you, you will reach the point when you realize that for yourself, don't need some a-hole give you advice on that. Just ignore that prick!
 
You're getting a lot of advice from highly experienced instructors on this thread. As a low time private pilot, I'd second everything above and also tell you that you CAN learn all this in time and your instructor gave you an impossible task for a second flight with less than an hour in your logbook. DON'T internalize his bad advice that you can't do this. I wouldn't fly with that guy again and I'd have a come to Jesus with the chief instructor and be ready to leave/sue if they wont' either fix their program, or give you every dime back (except for about $300 to cover your two flights).

Get a copy of your syllabus and decide if you're going to change schools, or they're actually going to HELP YOU be successful. Right now, this all sounds scam-my.
 
Find a new school. Tell them to kick rocks.
 
CC268 said:
Find a new school. Tell them to kick rocks.
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^^ THIS ^^

@Jesse Jetty -- In most major metropolitan areas, there are many Part 141 schools that are set up to accept GI Bill benefits. And I get that it can be a bit of a hassle to switch schools and have the money sent to the right one. But the current school and Asst. Chief CFI isn't doing you any favors based on what you have shared.

If you do seek out other schools, "audition" them by scheduling a discovery flight. This provides a no obligation opportunity to check out the school, staff, instructors, equipment, state of maintenance, etc. And if the instructor you're paired fits your style of learning, bonus!
 
@Jesse Jetty --- city/state are you? Maybe someone can provide leads to a better school.

Would you be able/willing to travel to get this done?
 
You are way to early in training to have a talk about ‘is this for me’?, or the foggles. Something seems amiss. Keep your S. A. tuned, if things don’t get back on track, DIVERT.
 
Its been a long time, but foggles, instruments, and pattern work on the 2nd flight is way way too much to ask. I think @frfly172 is correct, they must have gotten you confused with someone who needed a phase check flight.
 
Second lesson you were doing pattern, landing and blinders?!?!

I am 15 hours in. We did not move to Pattern work till I could perform the 4 fundamentals flawlessly. Then we did S Turn, Turn Around A point, stalls etc. We started doing pattern work and landings at about 8 hours. Now at 15 hours I am still on pattern and landings.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Its been a long time, but foggles, instruments, and pattern work on the 2nd flight is way way too much to ask. I think @frfly172 is correct, they must have gotten you confused with someone who needed a phase check flight.
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On my second flight I was overwhelmed and remember watching the CFI work the radios, controls, etc and I was like WOW! I couldn't do all that,

Then the CFI leaned me into the radio. Then more control. Etc etc. Now I basically do it all and he just goes for a ride. If he wanted me to do all that AND learn the pattern I would have lost my mind. Too much too soon.
 
I am a little late on this, but I agree with going in and asking what the problem was with the second flight instructor.

I disagree on no choice of instructor. I had problems at first, to the point of having the might better rethink this talk. I did rethink and changed instructors, 4 times. My last choice of instructor had a teaching style that closely matched my learning style and everything clicked. We got along great.

Sounds as if the second instructor is either clueless or hates what he is doing. Do not ever fly with him again and be forceful on that. Since you mentioned the G.I. Bill you have been in the military. This is NOT the military so refuse to be treated in like manner. Be prepared to change schools. As mentioned before, you are the customer, not the raw recruit. Take charge and make change.

Be prepared to find another school.

Good luck to you and I really hope it gets better for you.
 
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