Frontier Pilots Ready To Walk

mscard88

mscard88

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Mark
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Is Frontier Airlines the best choice for your future?

Lowest pay in the industry

Probationary pilot firings on the rise

Union representation denied for new hires facing discipline

Rampant understaffing

Massive vacation cancellations

Learn the facts: frontierpilotfacts.com
 
Since every airline is hiring, they should have no issue finding another job. Maybe that’s what they should do. Don’t like your job, find another.
 
mscard88 said:
25A5FE43CC2248419598966A143311BC.jpg

Is Frontier Airlines the best choice for your future?

Lowest pay in the industry

Probationary pilot firings on the rise

Union representation denied for new hires facing discipline

Rampant understaffing

Massive vacation cancellations

Learn the facts: frontierpilotfacts.com
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So they need to quit talking about it and start being about it
 
A very good friend of mine recently quit Frontier. He is getting his degree now and doing some sim work for now.
 
mscard88 said:
Untrue. You'd have to be employed in the airline industry to fully understand.
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Maybe I don't understand. Are they slaves or free people? Do their bosses have photos of them being intimate with sheep?

There are other industries and other careers. We all make our own choices about how we spend our lives. If we're unhappy and keep doing what makes us unhappy, shame on us.
 
Half Fast said:
Maybe I don't understand. Are they slaves or free people? Do their bosses have photos of them being intimate with sheep?

There are other industries and other careers. We all make our own choices about how we spend our lives. If we're unhappy and keep doing what makes us unhappy, shame on us.
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Changing airlines is not a lateral move. It’s a seniority based system, and changing airlines could mean five years on reserve and 20 years until once again sitting left seat.
IMO that truly changes the equation.
 
Choosing an airline is kind of like choosing a bride. It’s not that you can’t leave, but there are heavy penalties for doing so. It’s best to try to work it out before you throw it all away and have to start over. That being said, their are some women you shouldn’t marry to begin with, so you shouldn’t be surprised when things don’t work out.
 
Cooter said:
Choosing an airline is kind of like choosing a bride. It’s not that you can’t leave, but there are heavy penalties for doing so. It’s best to try to work it out before you throw it all away and have to start over. That being said, their are some women you shouldn’t marry to begin with, so you shouldn’t be surprised when things don’t work out.
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Those are my thoughts as well...
 
Cooter said:
Choosing an airline is kind of like choosing a bride. It’s not that you can’t leave, but there are heavy penalties for doing so. It’s best to try to work it out before you throw it all away and have to start over.
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This is especially true the further up the seniority ladder one climbs.

That being said, their are some women you shouldn’t marry to begin with, so you shouldn’t be surprised when things don’t work out.
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LOL. I like the analogy. However it isn’t always that cut and dried. Sometimes women change drastically after the ring is on their finger. Well, to keep this from being truly sexist, that goes for men also.

Managements come and go. Some are good, some are bad. And the employees are left to deal with the fallout of the bad ones.
 
Kritchlow said:
Changing airlines is not a lateral move. It’s a seniority based system, and changing airlines could mean five years on reserve and 20 years until once again sitting left seat.
IMO that truly changes the equation.
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Yes this is true.

However, staying at one company or changing to another company it is still working for someone else and that sucks.
 
I don’t know anyone at Frontier, but I wish them all the best. Everyone else has gotten a new contract in the last few years - it’s definitely their turn.
 
Upper management has to get their golden parachutes prepared!
 
The Railway Labor Act (RLA) makes working for an airline (or railroad) significantly different than working in other industries as the federal rules governing your employment are quite different.

The RLA was originally designed to prevent strikes or lock-outs which would disrupt the country's transportation system. First railroads, then later airlines. The RLA prohibits covered labor groups from striking, and employers from locking-out covered labor groups, without first proceeding through a complex process which involves the National Mediation Board (NMB). Both labor and employers are required to maintain Status Quo during the process so employer's can not change work rules outside of the process.

The goal is to avoid disruptions in the transportation system and, for the most part, it does that. It also produces situations that don't make a lot of sense when viewed from the outside without any context or understanding of the RLA.

Many Frontier pilots are leaving and many more are trying to leave. The worse it gets, the more who will leave.
 
Kritchlow said:
Changing airlines is not a lateral move. It’s a seniority based system, and changing airlines could mean five years on reserve and 20 years until once again sitting left seat.
IMO that truly changes the equation.
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Then change industries. Or change careers. The seniority thing isn't going to change.

Don't keep falling down and skinning your knee over and over and then trying to argue with the law of gravity.
 
Larry in TN said:
The Railway Labor Act (RLA) makes working for an airline (or railroad) significantly different than working in other industries as the federal rules governing your employment are quite different.

The RLA was originally designed to prevent strikes or lock-outs which would disrupt the country's transportation system. First railroads, then later airlines. The RLA prohibits covered labor groups from striking, and employers from locking-out covered labor groups, without first proceeding through a complex process which involves the National Mediation Board (NMB). Both labor and employers are required to maintain Status Quo during the process so employer's can not change work rules outside of the process.

The goal is to avoid disruptions in the transportation system and, for the most part, it does that. It also produces situations that don't make a lot of sense when viewed from the outside without any context or understanding of the RLA.

Many Frontier pilots are leaving and many more are trying to leave. The worse it gets, the more who will leave.
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The RLA was passed in 1926. There is not a single airline pilot flying today who should not have known the story when he took the job. If the situation is intolerable, then don't tolerate it - go do something else.
 
Half Fast said:
The RLA was passed in 1926. There is not a single airline pilot flying today who should not have known the story when he took the job. If the situation is intolerable, then don't tolerate it - go do something else.
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I don't understand your point.

Many are going somewhere else. Attrition at Frontier is high. Those who remain are following the options available to them under the RLA which may, eventually, lead to a strike or lock-out.
 
Kritchlow said:
While I respect your opinion, it’s truly an uninformed one.
I ask you respect those of our opinions that actually know what we are talking about.
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You’re talking about a particular business and industry and I will concede you know something about it.

I’m talking about life decisions and how one views career options and I do know something about that. I’m suggesting you take a broader view. You are certainly free not to do so.
 
I agree with Half Fast.
If you know what you’re getting into then why post in the first place?
Gotta be plenty of airline pilot forums you could drum up support on.
 
Life’s to short to dance with ugly partners like engineering.


Just kidddinggg!!!!!
 
Half Fast said:
The RLA was passed in 1926. There is not a single airline pilot flying today who should not have known the story when he took the job. If the situation is intolerable, then don't tolerate it - go do something else.
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Or...rather than run from one place to another, maybe you take a stand and try to improve conditions where you are. I have no idea what you do for a living but if you had a chance to get better pay or benefits wouldn’t you work toward that?

If you had taken a job and never gotten a raise then by your opinion you shouldn’t ask for a raise but rather go somewhere else (after all, you knew what the pay was when you started). I dare say that’s not what most people would do, especially in an industry as seniority based as the airlines.
 
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Busflyer said:
Or...rather than run from one place to another, maybe you take a stand and try to improve conditions where you are. I have no idea what you do for a living but if you had a chance to get better pay or benefits wouldn’t you work toward that?

If you had taken a job and never gotten a raise then by your opinion you shouldn’t ask for a raise but rather go somewhere else. I dare say that’s not what most people would do, especially in an industry as seniority based as the airlines.
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Yes I would go elsewhere. And if I didn’t like the industry I would make a different choice. Being in an adversarial relationship with an employer is unlikely to lead to long term satisfaction even if you win a short term victory.

As for what I do for a living, I’ve been a practicing engineer in the aerospace industry for 34 years.
 
Half Fast said:
You’re talking about a particular business and industry and I will concede you know something about it.

I’m talking about life decisions and how one views career options and I do know something about that. I’m suggesting you take a broader view. You are certainly free not to do so.
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My trade is a pilot. I do not have another, just as a plumber is not an electrician.
It’s not easy to learn to another skill set in your 50’s.. then progress to make what you make now.
Your thoughts, while sound terrific, are just not real world for the professional aviator.
Stick with your company and fight for a good contract is clearly the best route for most in my position.
 
Half Fast said:
Yes I would go elsewhere.
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Without negotiating for better pay or terms first? I don't think so.

The Frontier pilots are negotiating in the only way they are allowed under federal labor law. Those negotiations have gone quite poorly and many of them are leaving Frontier while those who remain continue to follow the provisions of the RLA.

I only know two Frontier pilots. One of them quit last month and is now at United. He didn't even have to take a pay cut to make the move and is happy to be remaining on the Airbus. The other is currently a Captain and is seriously considering leaving. He's still recovering financially from previous furloughs from Frontier. He'd take a pay cut for about two years, or so, if he went to one of the big four. I continue to encourage him to make the move.

Making such a move takes some time. Generally, two to three years from first application for a well qualified applicant though some get lucky while others wait much longer to get interviews. Many Frontier pilots had expected a resolution long before now.

Of course, it's very easy to make life-changing decisions for others. Not so much when you're doing it for yourself.
 
Half Fast said:
Yes I would go elsewhere. And if I didn’t like the industry I would make a different choice. Being in an adversarial relationship with an employer is unlikely to lead to long term satisfaction even if you win a short term victory.

As for what I do for a living, I’ve been a practicing engineer in the aerospace industry for 34 years.
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And your field is not seniority based to the extent the airlines are. We live and die by date of hire. You could go get another job with another firm as an engineer and be paid what an engineer with your experience deserves. An airline pilot would start over at year one. I dare say you wouldn’t want to go somewhere else and accept the salary that a newly graduated engineer would receive, and I don’t blame you.

It’s really comparing apples and oranges.
 
Half Fast said:
Yes I would go elsewhere. And if I didn’t like the industry I would make a different choice. Being in an adversarial relationship with an employer is unlikely to lead to long term satisfaction even if you win a short term victory.

As for what I do for a living, I’ve been a practicing engineer in the aerospace industry for 34 years.
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I'm an engineer too (retired), and it seems to me that it's a lot easier for an engineer to change jobs than is the case for many other lines of work, and a lot easier to do so without a pay cut. It really doesn't make sense to extrapolate experience in our profession to other lines of work for which the parameters are different. It also doesn't make sense to insist that that people in union jobs ignore the options that union representation provides. I have also worked as a musician, and comparing my two lines of work has made it crystal clear to me the differences between jobs in which union representation is needed and those in which it is not. Furthermore, I have found that the fact that union representation is necessary in some professions does NOT mean that one cannot enjoy that line of work.
 
Sad, because Frontier was the hometown airline in my old hometown. It was the place people wanted to work when they didn't want to relocate from the Denver area, or commute. Then things changed. I knew a lot of people who went to Frontier. I don't know what's going on with them now.
 
Everskyward said:
Sad, because Frontier was the hometown airline in my old hometown. It was the place people wanted to work when they didn't want to relocate from the Denver area, or commute. Then things changed. I knew a lot of people who went to Frontier. I don't know what's going on with them now.
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I heard good things about the original Frontier. Not so much this one.
 
I'm curious how Frontier could possibly recruit pilots considering the turmoil inside the company. Their business model probably worked pretty good when the majors were furloughing left and right and experienced pilots were cheap and plentiful.
 
Brad Z said:
I'm curious how Frontier could possibly recruit pilots considering the turmoil inside the company. Their business model probably worked pretty good when the majors were furloughing left and right and experienced pilots were cheap and plentiful.
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Same reason they always do. SJS-afflicted aspirants, and folks who otherwise want a Frontier domicile to hunker down and manage the QOL angle before moving on to the major airline FO job they think they're only 3 years away from.
 
Brad Z said:
I'm curious how Frontier could possibly recruit pilots considering the turmoil inside the company. Their business model probably worked pretty good when the majors were furloughing left and right and experienced pilots were cheap and plentiful.
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It must be getting more difficult for them. The only thing they really have to offer is the Airbus. Initial pay is less than most regionals.

This site probably doesn't help. http://frontierpilotfacts.com/
 
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