72 Arrow 1100 SMOH, but 20 years since.

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ZeroAviation

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ZeroAviation
All,

First post! I have read through countless POA threads and have learned a lot. (Like, If you pull the red handle, delete your account)

I have been flying for about 16 years now, and I have never once looked through a engine logbook or have worried about the condition of the engine on any rental.

I am looking to purchase my first aircraft now. It's a 72 Arrow II (PA-28R-200) 5000TT, Basic king stack, newish paint. The only drawback is the engine has 1100SMOH, and was overhauled in 98. The last 4 years, the plane flew less than 30 hours per year. However, the owner now has flowin it at a part 141 school and has over 100 hours in the last 5 months. Somewhere in there they had to replace 1 cylinder.

The airplane is $50k, i'm concerned about the life of the engine though, I know your not supposed to let them sit without running, and 20 years is a long time for only 1100 hours. Would a simple borescope tell if the remaining cylinders are ok? I don't suppose there is any way to verify the camshaft is ok without a lot of $$$ in the pre buy.

Mission is simple, will be flown every other week, roughly 10 hours a month, though some months will have 15-20 with trips over 1000SM. Only need to carry 2 passengers, and at least go 135kts true.

All feedback is greatly appreciated!

Cheers
 
I wouldn't be too concerned about it. Have them do a warm compression check and go fly it for an hour or two and see how much oil it used. See if the owner did any oil analysis when he did his oil changes.
 
I’m having a similar issue with a Mooney I’m looking at... I’ve got a Mooney service center gonna take a real close look at the motor and other Mooney specific issues. I don’t think you can take for granted that the motor was damaged by sitting... where was it stored? Was it in FLA or some other salt infested “air rea”? Be optimistic but do your due diligence.
 
You'll want a thorough prebuy done by a shop knowledgeable in the type, and that shop will almost certainly do a borescope inspection of the engine and probably pull a cylinder. One of the common issues is that corrosion develops on the cam lifters, which gouge the lobes as the camshaft spins. Maybe all the problems have been shook down and everything's good, and maybe there's a significant problem ready to crop up.
 
Eric Gleason said:
You'll want a thorough prebuy done by a shop knowledgeable in the type, and that shop will almost certainly do a borescope inspection of the engine and probably pull a cylinder....
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I'm not sure how true that is. you think the current owner is going to let someone pull a cylinder of their plane? I know I wouldn't.
 
Thanks everyone for the responses! I don't think they will let me pull a cylinder sadly.

No way to really tell what the status of the camshaft is without that right?

Is it worth rolling the dice at $50k? I would be more apt to do it if it had better avionics.
 
I REALLY wouldn't worry about the age of the engine. Mine is going on 35 years old with 750SFOH. I've put about 110 hours on it since purchase (in 6 months time) and 3 oil changes, filters were good and oil analysis is good.

As always your mileage may vary... but I say go for it.

When you do buy it... we want pictures :)
 
Are the logs available for inspection? How often was the oil changed? If it was only changed due to tach or hobbs time, I would look a lot harder at it. I would be looking to see if the oil was changed at around 4 months calendar time, even if only a few hours tach or hobbs time.

I have read, and I firmly believe, that the biggest key to long engine life is timely oil changes.
 
a core engine
 
How’s the prop. Just budget 35K plus. I looked at a Moony 1100 since OH in 1990. I couldn’t swing the price and an OH plus whatever else was going to be needed.
 
I did get the comb through the logs in person when I traveled to see it. The only issue with the engine that I could see was 1 cylinder was replaced. I do not remember how often the oil was changed by the previous (to this one) owner. The current owner has stayed on top of it though.

The analysis showed high copper and nickel on the first sample (when they first got it on 4/20) but the lab comments said it was fine. The most recent sample on 9/10 showed everything to be well within the green.

Prop is fine, has 1100 on it, and is in good shape.

Seems like it may be ok....
 
The cam is what you should be worried about and you're correct you would have to pull a cylinder to get a look at it. But if it's flying regularly now any cam spalling issues should have surfaced in 100 hrs. If they replaced a cylinder then the mechanics should have a good idea of the cam health. If you're worried about it I would pay for an oil change and have an analysis performed. Of course there is the caveat that an oil analysis may not indicate an impending failure.

I have found that in a case like this the opinions are either:

1) The engine is toast and it will fail within 100 hrs.
2) The engine is fine and will fly to 2,500 - 3,000 hrs.

I had a somewhat similar situation to yours. I was looking at a C172 with an O-360 that was at approx. 1,700 hrs. but had only flown 25 hrs in the last 5 years and 2 hrs. in the last 2 years. The seller only slightly discounted the price. I opted to move forward with the purchase taking the risk that I may have to perform an overhaul. A year later and over 100 hrs. the engine is running fine and so far hasn't made any metal.

My advice is to look for another aircraft if you're not willing to take the chance you may have to have the engine overhauled or you're going to be always worried about the engine.

Good Luck!
 
I just old an Ercoupe for a family friend with a similar story.

Except this was 200 SMOH and 38 years ago. Flew probably 15 hours in the past 10 years. The consensus is the past 8 or 9 annuals were pencil whipped.

The person who bought it trailered it out even though it was still within annual.
 
I forgot to mention it was a factory zero time engine when it was replaced. Do those carry more value in the long run?
 
ZeroAviation said:
I forgot to mention it was a factory zero time engine when it was replaced. Do those carry more value in the long run?
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If you want to get a Lycoming rebuilt engine then this engine would qualify for additional discounts...
 
idahoflier said:
I have found that in a case like this the opinions are either:

1) The engine is toast and it will fail within 100 hrs.
2) The engine is fine and will fly to 2,500 - 3,000 hrs.
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And both groups are correct. Its a roll of the dice no matter how you slice it. I've seen recent overhauls come apart with 100 hours or less. And I've seen engines from project planes that sat in a barn (in salty east coast air no less) for 30 years without being pickled get bolted back on the airframe as is and flown for years without a hiccup.

With 1100 hours its a mid time engine. If you want to factor in the 20 years then think of it as a 1500 or 1600 hour engine and make an offer based on that. If the owner accepts, great. And if not, move on and keep looking.
 
If its flying regularly now and an oil analysis comes back good, compression/borescope tests good, i'd feel okay about the engine making it to TBO. As someone else mentioned, if it had an internal problem it would likely show up by now with the heavy use that it is seeing.

With regular trips over 1000sm you might consider something faster. With a budget around 50k you might be able to find a nice M20F (medium body, plenty of legroom in the back) or if you don't need the larger backseat an E model could be found in your budget. A nice one with some speed mods should net you 150-155ktas on the same fuel burn.
 
There are LOTS of planes out there with 30 plus years on engine rebuilds that only get 20 hours per year and are running strong. We have a 71 Arrow that is the same way and I wouldn't hesitate to take off on a 400 mile trip. I say go for it as long as it passes a pre-buy with compression, bore scope, etc.
 
eman1200 said:
I'm not sure how true that is. you think the current owner is going to let someone pull a cylinder of their plane? I know I wouldn't.
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It's a common step in a pre-buy inspection. If your engine sat so long and you wouldn't let me fully inspect it, I'd walk away.


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Eric Gleason said:
It's a common step in a pre-buy inspection. If your engine sat so long and you wouldn't let me fully inspect it, I'd walk away.


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I still disagree that it’s ‘common’ to pull a cylinder for a prepurchase. Understand if you’d walk but to tell peopl it’s common to pull cylinders is just not really true.
 
Eric Gleason said:
It's a common step in a pre-buy inspection. If your engine sat so long and you wouldn't let me fully inspect it, I'd walk away.


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It's really not very common. I also have never heard of this happening, nor would I allow it or would I even expect a seller to allow this.
 
Eric Gleason said:
It's a common step in a pre-buy inspection. If your engine sat so long and you wouldn't let me fully inspect it, I'd walk away.
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Pulling a cylinder is as invasive as it gets and rarely done. However as a seller I would expect lower offers.
 
My plane was overhauled in 2000 so its 18 yrs since overhaul. It currently has 600 SMOH. I bought the plane 6 years ago when it had 50 hrs SMOH. Hey, I was a student pilot at the time and really didn’t know much. I knew it wasn’t good, and I discounted the plane for it, but not enough if the engine didn’t last at least a few years.

It still burns around a quart every 15-20 hours and the oil analysis looks good. I’ve had to have the generator and starter adapter overhauled. I had a low compression reading on one cylinder for a few years, low but still passing. Since I picked up a replacement cylinder the compression readings have gone up. So it sits on the shelf until needed.

So if I haven’t jinxed myself I suppose I got lucky. I would think if I was going to have a corrosion problem from sitting it would have shown up in the first few hundred hours.

I probably would not have bought the plane today. But I’m glad now that I did. I’ve got a 2,000 mile round trip coming up and I’ve probably really jinxed myself now.
 
I did have a supposedly engine guy inspect the plane, and also had another shop do a annual for the pre buy. But the engine guy did not pull a cylinder, and I was paying for that. The seller paid for the annual and all airworthy discrepancies.
 
It also had a cylinder off recently to replace one.

I would think anyone who would sign off the job under their own name might take a look at the cam while they were in there - you know, to see if they're wasting their time.

Or, was it put up for sale immediately after the cylinder was replaced?

I would be more worried about the wings falling off. Not that it changes the glide much on an arrow but it does steer better.
 
I recently purchased a 1969 Cessna 172K. 1500 hours (airframe and engine), That's right 50 years, 1500 hours...3 hours last year. Not exactly the same situation but similar. On the pre-buy borescope 3 of 4 cylinders showed wear from the piston pin rubbing on the cylinder wall. My mechanic recommended pulling a cylinder and looking inside. I approached the owner with a few options. 1) We button the plane back up and I walk away, 2) we pull a cylinder and if all is fine I will discount for new cylinders, or 3) we pull a cylinder and if there is a problem I pay a steeply discounted price. I put specific dollar amounts in the new offers.

She agreed, we pulled the cylinder and it was determined the engine desperately needed an overhaul. When we talked later it became clear she knew it was time for an overhaul and it was one of the reasons she was selling it.

I got a pretty good deal and I'll have a freshly overhauled engine (I should get it back in a few weeks). I would lay out your concerns, make your offer based on them and don't be afraid to walk away.
 
1100 hours in 20 years? That's 50 hours a year, which is exactly what most hobbyists fly. If the airplane has been hangared and if oil has been changed a couple times a year, it is probably a great engine. Having made it to 1100 hours tells more of a story than an engine with 100 hours overhauled four years ago. These things cost real money to overhaul and when someone says it's runout because it is 13 (or 20) years old and that the seller should just give the POS to the buyer and apologize for the useless engine, I cringe.
 
My J4A Continental C-85 was assembled from its major 37 years ago, pickled and stored in a dry basement, but never test run. The cylinders were still corrosion free when I started it 5 years ago.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
and when someone says it's runout because it is 13 (or 20) years old and that the seller should just give the POS to the buyer and apologize for the useless engine, I cringe.
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Exactly. It is an argument that is often proferred by keyboard warriors, but if you actually want to buy the damn thing and be a used airplane owner of non-cherries, you're gonna have to back off from that stance. The reality of the current market is that nobody is fireselling their spam cans, junk or no junk, on account of engine calendar year. I certainly won't be either, when it comes time to unload my Arrow.
 
ZeroAviation said:
Thanks everyone for the feedback! I have decided to continue with the purchase.
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Enjoy staring at that groundspeed indicator on your GPS for hours on your 1000nm trips and wishing it was 20kts higher

Just kidding, hope that its a great airplane for you! :)
 
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