What twin do I want?

paflyer

paflyer

Final Approach
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Milk run would be to/from a 2750' runway to a 3000' runway, both narrow but paved, both a few hundred above MSL so never see more than 3000' DA worst case, and neither have IAPs but nearby longer runway airports do. The shorter runway has significant trees (130') a couple hundred feet from the threshold of the NE end which would usually be the approach side, so slam-dunk arrival would be par for the course. No other terrain is a factor either end. Distance between is around 200nm. No fuel either airport so need to be able to carry enough for RT with IFR reserves.

Room for 2 couples, so a six-seater, cruise close to 200kt. I'd like pressurization for other trips but I don't think the runways are long enough for comfort on T.O. because of the higher GW. FIKI would be close to a must, definitely boots since this is mid-Atlantic to northeast snow belt. Pilot low-time MEL.

Maybe a $200K acquisition cost max. I don't need fancy avionics, just a decent autopilot and IFR-cert moving map GPS, coupled.

Have at it, help me spend my retirement money!
 
Seneca or BE55


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Hard to go wrong with a P310. but just about any will do, I have seen 421s fly out of our 3k strip with the same obstructions.
 
Except for the 200kt cruise I'd say Aztec.

Maybe a 337 Skymaster could do it as well and they did make those pressurized.
 
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Grum.Man said:
Hard to go wrong with a P310. but just about any will do, I have seen 421s fly out of our 3k strip with the same obstructions.
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No such thing as a P310. There's the 310P model, which is not pressurized.

I'd recommend a 310 with 520s or 550s. Short nose with 550s would be ideal.
 
OV-10 Bronco

@Timbeck2 probably has a few in his back yard there in AZ.

ov-10-67-14658-01.jpg
 
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What, nobody suggested Beech Duke?
OK, Beech Duke, B60 model.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
What, nobody suggested Beech Duke?
OK, Beech Duke, B60 model.
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Pretty sure the only performance charts the Duke has for runways of that length are "Crash."

It's a little known fact that the Duke includes performance charts for crashing, to make sure that you do it correctly. Single and twin engine crashing require different runway lengths.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Pretty sure the only performance charts the Duke has for runways of that length are "Crash."

It's a little known fact that the Duke includes performance charts for crashing, to make sure that you do it correctly. Single and twin engine crashing require different runway lengths.
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I take it you don't like the Duke! Technically, it would meet the specs of the OP. When new. With good engines. And a good pilot. And a fat wallet, 'cuz they swill 100LL. But it will look good on the ramp, which 50% of the reason that most people buy a plane.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I take it you don't like the Duke! Technically, it would meet the specs of the OP. When new. With good engines. And a good pilot. And a fat wallet, 'cuz they swill 100LL. But it will look good on the ramp, which 50% of the reason that most people buy a plane.
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2,700 feet with obstacles, in a Duke? Only if you fly through them.
 
Sadly a Duke won't cut it close to MGW. Surprised no one mentioned a Navajo; perhaps a 340A with RAM?
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I take it you don't like the Duke! Technically, it would meet the specs of the OP. When new. With good engines. And a good pilot. And a fat wallet, 'cuz they swill 100LL. But it will look good on the ramp, which 50% of the reason that most people buy a plane.
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Well it can kinda do it. It’s just a bad idea to try.
 
Buy a cheap one. Thats how you save money !
 
Hmm... @Timbeck2 mentioned that he has twins.

As far as airplanes go, I REALLY like the T310. Smooth and stable machine.
 
Ryanb said:
As far as airplanes go, I REALLY like the T310. Smooth and stable machine.
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310. Same as the T310 without the MX headaches of turbos.
 
Looking at the OP's budget and limited experience, wouldn't an Aztec be the right call? Gets off the ground quickly, easy to fly, can handle ice, carries a load. No pressurization, but is there any pressurized twin you would recommend for a purchase price of $200,000? I just looked at a couple of 340s in Trade A Plane, and there was one listing that was advertising that the owner had spent $65,000 in maintenance in the last year. The OP doesn't need that kind of a retirement present.
 
Aztec isn't anywhere close to 200 kts... it's 155-160.
 
paflyer said:
Milk run would be to/from a 2750' runway to a 3000' runway, both narrow but paved, both a few hundred above MSL so never see more than 3000' DA worst case, and neither have IAPs but nearby longer runway airports do. The shorter runway has significant trees (130') a couple hundred feet from the threshold of the NE end which would usually be the approach side, so slam-dunk arrival would be par for the course. No other terrain is a factor either end. Distance between is around 200nm. No fuel either airport so need to be able to carry enough for RT with IFR reserves.

Room for 2 couples, so a six-seater, cruise close to 200kt. I'd like pressurization for other trips but I don't think the runways are long enough for comfort on T.O. because of the higher GW. FIKI would be close to a must, definitely boots since this is mid-Atlantic to northeast snow belt. Pilot low-time MEL.

Maybe a $200K acquisition cost max. I don't need fancy avionics, just a decent autopilot and IFR-cert moving map GPS, coupled.

Have at it, help me spend my retirement money!
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OK, I'm going to go with a P-Baron here, since I think it checks more of your boxes than anything else:

Short field performance: Not great, but it'll do it if both fans keep spinning (2500 feet, sea level standard day no wind). Takes a bit longer than a 310 to do it, but accelerate-stop and accelerate-go distances are a bit shorter than the 310. They're comparable, at least.
2 couples: Well, uh, probably. Knowing how much stuff @Dave S. used to pack into his, at least.
Cruise @ 200 knots: Even better, cruise is well over 200 knots at altitude. However, for a block-to-block distance of 200nm, it may not cover that in an hour due to time in the climb.
Pressurization: Check. It's not great, but it'll give you a 10,000-foot cabin up to the low 20s.
De-ice: Yes, many are so equipped.
<$200K purchase: Yes, several are available in that range. Here's one that looks like a pretty good deal, if you can live with a cloth interior - Nice avionics, low engine times: https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/27810817/1978-beechcraft-58p-baron

Most of the other twins mentioned aren't as fast, nor are they pressurized. The P-Baron is generally the lowest cost to get into a pressurized twin, since Cessna's low end for pressurization is the 340 and Piper's is the P-Navajo, with honorable mention to the Aerostar which they owned for a while. Not too many of those in your price range, but they do exist: Aerostar 602p which also may not meet your short field runway requirements, it's got some of the skinniest wings and tail surfaces you'll ever see, and P-Navajo (which probably also won't). Unfortunately, those are rarer birds than the B58P, so it's hard to find performance charts for them online.

I'll attach the performance chapter of the B58P manual below. Have fun. :)
 

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flyingron said:
You'd look cool in a Duke.
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But he'd need to get a chainsaw to make it work safely, apparently.
One other thing is the "room for two couples". Well, my better half and I tip the scales at 340 lbs combined, but the couple that we'd be most likely to fly with goes maybe 500. So 840 lbs. plus "stuff". I wonder what the mass of the OP's two couples would be? Sometimes there is "room", but not "weight capacity".
 
flyingcheesehead said:
OK, I'm going to go with a P-Baron here, since I think it checks more of your boxes than anything else:

Short field performance: Not great, but it'll do it if both fans keep spinning (2500 feet, sea level standard day no wind). Takes a bit longer than a 310 to do it, but accelerate-stop and accelerate-go distances are a bit shorter than the 310. They're comparable, at least.
2 couples: Well, uh, probably. Knowing how much stuff @Dave S. used to pack into his, at least.
Cruise @ 200 knots: Even better, cruise is well over 200 knots at altitude. However, for a block-to-block distance of 200nm, it may not cover that in an hour due to time in the climb.
Pressurization: Check. It's not great, but it'll give you a 10,000-foot cabin up to the low 20s.
De-ice: Yes, many are so equipped.
<$200K purchase: Yes, several are available in that range. Here's one that looks like a pretty good deal, if you can live with a cloth interior - Nice avionics, low engine times: https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/27810817/1978-beechcraft-58p-baron

Most of the other twins mentioned aren't as fast, nor are they pressurized. The P-Baron is generally the lowest cost to get into a pressurized twin, since Cessna's low end for pressurization is the 340 and Piper's is the P-Navajo, with honorable mention to the Aerostar which they owned for a while. Not too many of those in your price range, but they do exist: Aerostar 602p which also may not meet your short field runway requirements, it's got some of the skinniest wings and tail surfaces you'll ever see, and P-Navajo (which probably also won't). Unfortunately, those are rarer birds than the B58P, so it's hard to find performance charts for them online.

I'll attach the performance chapter of the B58P manual below. Have fun. :)
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I would NOT recommend a P-Baron. A few notes.

Beech Field used to have two runways, a 5,000 ft and a 2,500 ft. They did operate the P-Barons off the 2,500 ft runway, so it was doable. This was also out in Kansas with no obstacles. So is it doable? Technically. It's also really bad idea and gives you zero margin if things go bad. Don't get me wrong, the 310 isn't a ton better, but it is better. Note that Dave S. landed his at Gaston's once and he really wasn't comfortable with the margins on it. And Dave is not only a good pilot, but he was also proficient in the P-Baron when he had it.

The P-Baron is noticeably smaller than the 340 insider, but as I recall the empty weight is higher. I do know people who operate 340s out of <3000 ft runways successfully, although I don't recommend it, they seem to do better than the P-Baron.

Ultimately this mission with pressurization is a tough one if you care about having any safety margin. @gismo used to (and probably still does) fly his 55 Baron in and out of shorter strips than what the OP is talking. The 55 is a lot lighter than the 58P, more or less equivalent to the 310.

Keep in mind that for short trips, block times on a 55 Baron or a 310 are probably going to be faster than a 58P or a 340. The pressurized birds are heavier and draggier, and they need to get up high to get that faster cruise speed. Did I mention climb rate on them is pretty lackluster on them because of the weight and drag?

An Aerostar 600A would be a consideration, although I don't know how they do on short fields. @stratobee could give his experience.

The runways make this a tough ask. But honestly for a 200 nm trip, pressurization does nothing for you besides add cost.
 
I’d go with the Navajo. Fits budget. Fits mission. They do enjoy the LL but for 200nm missions who cares. Gas is cheap. Turbos and pressurization aren’t..
 
benyflyguy said:
I’d go with the Navajo. Fits budget. Fits mission. They do enjoy the LL but for 200nm missions who cares. Gas is cheap. Turbos and pressurization aren’t..
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A Navajo is a good option and you can find one in the budget. They can do the runways so long as you aren't full. Keep in mind that almost all Navajos are turbocharged. You could find one of the early naturally aspirated ones, but performance will be limited. It also won't be a 200 kt plane, but it will do a solid 180-190 (depending on how hard you run it) with a turbo version at 8-12k.

I find Lycoming turbo systems are less user friendly but much more reliable than Continental.
 
Starting to look like I need a C90 if I want fast (relatively), pressurized, not going to put me into the trees if OEI at the wrong time, and short field.

Busts the budget by at least 1.5x for an oldie but maybe goodie for low annual hours...
 
King Airs will eat you alive on MX. But they do short fields well - my wife's company (air ambulance) flies into <3000 ft strips all the time.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Aztec isn't anywhere close to 200 kts... it's 155-160.
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When making a decision like this, you have to separate wants from needs. @paflyer says he has $200,000 to spend, would like pressurization and 200 knots, and needs to get out of a 2700 foot strip and has to have deice. These sound like contradictory requirements to me, so I'm going to prioritize his needs, and let's see if we can get his wants.

First priority is always the same, we want to avoid appearing on Kathryn's Report. @paflyer says he is a low time multiengine pilot, so something docile and predictable is in order, especially given that he's going in and out of shortish runways, and in cloudy mid-Atlantic weather. Also, since he said something about spending his retirement money, I'm going to guess he's closer to my age (60) than yours (something considerably less than 60). As we age, our senses and systems start slowing. Our field of vision narrows, and it becomes more difficult to process multiple channels of information simultaneously. If you developed significant skills at a younger age and kept them current as you aged, you'd notice a slow decline, but you'd be much more proficient than someone who has had to learn them later in life, or someone who had learned them but did not use them for a number of years.

Second priority is being able to accomplish the mission. In this case it's getting in and out of a 2700 foot runway in mid Atlantic weather. That leaves out a number of twins, even when flown perfectly, they won't get out of that airport. It also requires some sort of deice.

In the wants side of things, he mentioned he would like pressurization and 200 knots, but neither of these are important to the main mission he mentioned. I can't think of a pressurized twin for less than $200K that won't eat him out of house and home. Also, if his most common trip is 200 nm, any twin is plenty fast, the additional speed won't shorten the trip time by much.

You can buy an extremely nice Aztec or 310 for that budget, and have money left over for upgrades. If it were me making the decision, I'd go with the Aztec. I don't mind scaring myself when I'm by myself, but when other people are at risk as well, I get very cautious, and I think the Aztec is the friendlier of the two.
 
FormerHangie said:
When making a decision like this, you have to separate wants from needs. @paflyer says he has $200,000 to spend, would like pressurization and 200 knots, and needs to get out of a 2700 foot strip and has to have deice. These sound like contradictory requirements to me, so I'm going to prioritize his needs, and let's see if we can get his wants.

First priority is always the same, we want to avoid appearing on Kathryn's Report. @paflyer says he is a low time multiengine pilot, so something docile and predictable is in order, especially given that he's going in and out of shortish runways, and in cloudy mid-Atlantic weather. Also, since he said something about spending his retirement money, I'm going to guess he's closer to my age (60) than yours (something considerably less than 60). As we age, our senses and systems start slowing. Our field of vision narrows, and it becomes more difficult to process multiple channels of information simultaneously. If you developed significant skills at a younger age and kept them current as you aged, you'd notice a slow decline, but you'd be much more proficient than someone who has had to learn them later in life, or someone who had learned them but did not use them for a number of years.

Second priority is being able to accomplish the mission. In this case it's getting in and out of a 2700 foot runway in mid Atlantic weather. That leaves out a number of twins, even when flown perfectly, they won't get out of that airport. It also requires some sort of deice.

In the wants side of things, he mentioned he would like pressurization and 200 knots, but neither of these are important to the main mission he mentioned. I can't think of a pressurized twin for less than $200K that won't eat him out of house and home. Also, if his most common trip is 200 nm, any twin is plenty fast, the additional speed won't shorten the trip time by much.

You can buy an extremely nice Aztec or 310 for that budget, and have money left over for upgrades. If it were me making the decision, I'd go with the Aztec. I don't mind scaring myself when I'm by myself, but when other people are at risk as well, I get very cautious, and I think the Aztec is the friendlier of the two.
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Having 1,000 hours in the Aztec, I'd agree it's a great plane, very docile, and there's a lot of benefit to that. Well within budget, fits all the needs. And on a 200 nm trip, the difference between Aztec speed and 310 speed is noticeable, but minor. Handles ice better than anything else I've ever flown.

Having 1,000 hours in the 310, I would also say that it'll do the job just fine, is docile, noticeably faster (especially if you opt for the bigger engines, which I would).

The pressurized/etc... I just don't see that happening, nor being safe as a low time multi pilot, and nor do I see it being as beneficial as people think it will be going in. But plenty of people do it anyway.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
King Airs will eat you alive on MX. But they do short fields well - my wife's company (air ambulance) flies into <3000 ft strips all the time.
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I'm aware of the inspections stuff, and how the "maintenance facilities" treat them as do-it-fast-rip-it-out-and-replace-it-don't-care-how-much-it-costs plan for the revenue birds. Supposedly there's a "low utilization" option if you work with an independent shop and can live with some downtime..
 
Dave would be the one to talk to about that.
 
FormerHangie said:
When making a decision like this, you have to separate wants from needs. @paflyer says he has $200,000 to spend, would like pressurization and 200 knots, and needs to get out of a 2700 foot strip and has to have deice. These sound like contradictory requirements to me, so I'm going to prioritize his needs, and let's see if we can get his wants.

First priority is always the same, we want to avoid appearing on Kathryn's Report. @paflyer says he is a low time multiengine pilot, so something docile and predictable is in order, especially given that he's going in and out of shortish runways, and in cloudy mid-Atlantic weather. Also, since he said something about spending his retirement money, I'm going to guess he's closer to my age (60) than yours (something considerably less than 60). As we age, our senses and systems start slowing. Our field of vision narrows, and it becomes more difficult to process multiple channels of information simultaneously. If you developed significant skills at a younger age and kept them current as you aged, you'd notice a slow decline, but you'd be much more proficient than someone who has had to learn them later in life, or someone who had learned them but did not use them for a number of years.

Second priority is being able to accomplish the mission. In this case it's getting in and out of a 2700 foot runway in mid Atlantic weather. That leaves out a number of twins, even when flown perfectly, they won't get out of that airport. It also requires some sort of deice.

In the wants side of things, he mentioned he would like pressurization and 200 knots, but neither of these are important to the main mission he mentioned. I can't think of a pressurized twin for less than $200K that won't eat him out of house and home. Also, if his most common trip is 200 nm, any twin is plenty fast, the additional speed won't shorten the trip time by much.

You can buy an extremely nice Aztec or 310 for that budget, and have money left over for upgrades. If it were me making the decision, I'd go with the Aztec. I don't mind scaring myself when I'm by myself, but when other people are at risk as well, I get very cautious, and I think the Aztec is the friendlier of the two.
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I was going to say the same thing. A naturally aspirated Aztec or 310, ideally with a few aerodynamic mods, would give you a mile of margin on those short trips. If you want a little more capability, maybe you go turbo, but you'll be spending a good bit more on fuel and MX for a little more speed the once in awhile you'll need it.
 
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