Not allowed to cancel?

RE: contact approach. Probably the best option in this case if it was IFR but you wanted to get in without flying the approach, assuming you had the requisite minima

Pretty funny, a long time ago AOPA did an article about instrument flying, they call contact approaches "scary"

https://web.archive.org/web/20100521060414/http://www.aopa.org/pilot/features/ii_9808.html

View attachment 66722
AOPA's warning about contact approaches ignores the case where you have the airport in sight, but the visibility is reported to be under three miles. No scud running needed. However, the one time I asked Norcal Approach for a contact approach in the SF Bay Area, they wouldn't clear me for it. Special VFR, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be a problem for them.
 
I would’ve said “cancelation received, Reid Hillview is reporting IFR, ceiling 900 ft, say request.”

What would he have to say so you would have allow him to land?

Does one even have to answer “say request”? Isn’t canceling IFR with no request suffice.
 
I would’ve said “cancelation received, Reid Hillview is reporting IFR, ceiling 900 ft, say request.”

What would he have to say so you would have allow him to land?

Seems to me that once he canceled IFR, with a 900-foot ceiling the only way he could legally land would be to request special VFR.
Does one even have to answer “say request”? Isn’t canceling IFR with no request suffice.

Since ATC is not allowed to suggest special VFR, maybe "say request" is a hint about what the pilot needs to say next in order to be allowed into the class D airspace.
 
Seems to me that once he canceled IFR, with a 900-foot ceiling the only way he could legally land would be to request special VFR.


Since ATC is not allowed to suggest special VFR, maybe "say request" is a hint about what the pilot needs to say next in order to be allowed into the class D airspace.

The problem is that there wasn’t a 900 ft ceiling. Over Reid Hillview and vicinity, the ceiling and visibility were VFR in actuality. An hour prior to my flight, yes, the ceiling was 900 ft, but just because the ATIS wasn’t updated, NORCAL wouldn’t let me cancel. People were arriving and departing VFR to and from Reid Hillview at the same time I was being told I couldn’t cancel.

My point, is that if I’m in VFR conditions, no matter where I am planning to land, shouldn’t I be allowed to cancel? Isn’t this the pilot’s decision? And once cancelled (I was in class E airspace) wouldn’t it be between me and RHV tower to negotiate a landing clearance?

A thought experiment: Let’s say that San Martin (E16) was clear (I don’t know if it was, but it seems likely given conditions I was in). If someone had taken off from San Martin going to Reid Hillview. They would have been in VFR all the way. They would have called up Reid Hillview and been cleared to land even though the ATIS was reporting 900 ft, because the tower operators could clearly see that it was VFR. No need to talk to NORCal at all. Meanwhile, I was being vectored all the way around just because of an old ATIS.

A similar situation weather-wise happened in July, again when going to a Young Eagles event at Reid Hillview. IFR conditions at San Jose requiring an IFR departure, reported IFR in the Reid Hillview ATIS but VFR in actuality. Once over Reid Hillview, I let Norcal know I had the field in sight and was cancelling. No problem, “IFR cancellation received, contact Reid Hillview tower on 119.8”. That was one reason why it was a surprise that I couldn’t cancel this last time in August. Seems to depend on the whim of the controller.

I still need to give NORCal a call about this.


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I’d say this appears to be another area many inexperienced CFIIs don’t cover very well.
 
One of the main issues is that towers don’t do SPECI observations when required. For some reason they prefer to just wait until the end of the hour to do another observation.

3.12. Criteria for SPECI Observations. The observer must take, record, and disseminate a SPECI observation when any of the following is observed to occur:
h. Ceiling. The height of the base of clouds covering five eighths or more (for example, broken and overcast) of the sky forms or dissipates below, decreases to less than or, if below, increases to equal or exceed:
(1) 3,000 feet.
(2) 1,500 feet.
(3) 1,000 feet.
(4) 500 feet.
(5) The lowest standard instrument approach procedure minimum as published in the U.S. Terminal Procedures. If none published, use 200 feet.
 
A similar situation weather-wise happened in July, again when going to a Young Eagles event at Reid Hillview. IFR conditions at San Jose requiring an IFR departure, reported IFR in the Reid Hillview ATIS but VFR in actuality. Once over Reid Hillview, I let Norcal know I had the field in sight and was cancelling. No problem, “IFR cancellation received, contact Reid Hillview tower on 119.8”. That was one reason why it was a surprise that I couldn’t cancel this last time in August. Seems to depend on the whim of the controller.

I still need to give NORCal a call about this.
I'd say it is a problem with the tower rather than Nor Cal. It's up to them to let approach control know the airport became VFR and that the ATIS is obsolete. Or, they should have cut a new ATIS on a more timely basis. The approach controller was dealing with a Class D Surface Area, not Class E airspace. The Class D Surface Area was IFR based on the best information available to the approach controller.
 
The problem is that there wasn’t a 900 ft ceiling. Over Reid Hillview and vicinity, the ceiling and visibility were VFR in actuality. An hour prior to my flight, yes, the ceiling was 900 ft, but just because the ATIS wasn’t updated, NORCAL wouldn’t let me cancel. People were arriving and departing VFR to and from Reid Hillview at the same time I was being told I couldn’t cancel.

My point, is that if I’m in VFR conditions, no matter where I am planning to land, shouldn’t I be allowed to cancel? Isn’t this the pilot’s decision? And once cancelled (I was in class E airspace) wouldn’t it be between me and RHV tower to negotiate a landing clearance?

A thought experiment: Let’s say that San Martin (E16) was clear (I don’t know if it was, but it seems likely given conditions I was in). If someone had taken off from San Martin going to Reid Hillview. They would have been in VFR all the way. They would have called up Reid Hillview and been cleared to land even though the ATIS was reporting 900 ft, because the tower operators could clearly see that it was VFR. No need to talk to NORCal at all. Meanwhile, I was being vectored all the way around just because of an old ATIS.

A similar situation weather-wise happened in July, again when going to a Young Eagles event at Reid Hillview. IFR conditions at San Jose requiring an IFR departure, reported IFR in the Reid Hillview ATIS but VFR in actuality. Once over Reid Hillview, I let Norcal know I had the field in sight and was cancelling. No problem, “IFR cancellation received, contact Reid Hillview tower on 119.8”. That was one reason why it was a surprise that I couldn’t cancel this last time in August. Seems to depend on the whim of the controller.

I still need to give NORCal a call about this.


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I really wish you would call them. I wouldn't so much call it "the whim of the controller," more like ignorance. I do not mean ignorance negatively as in he's stupid, just unaware of the rules of his job. "Shouldn't I be allowed to cancel" is what I think is called a non sequitur. There is no such thing as being 'allowed' to cancel. I'm not criticizing how you said what you said, just trying to illustrate the point. You were put in bad situation by the controller. Even though his response to you was wrong, you were caught in a FAR 91.123 (b) situation. If they give you a run around trying to justify the controllers action I'd file an ASRS NASA report. It would not be about a get out of jail free card, you have nothing to defend yourself for. Identifying problems like this is one of the reasons the ASRS exists. Immunity is just a way to encourage participation

EDIT: After looking at 91.123 to get which paragraph, (b) it was, I read the whole thing. (a) is very pertinent here:

Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.
(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
(c) Each pilot in command who, in an emergency, or in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory, deviates from an ATC clearance or instruction shall notify ATC of that deviation as soon as possible.
(d) Each pilot in command who (though not deviating from a rule of this subpart) is given priority by ATC in an emergency, shall submit a detailed report of that emergency within 48 hours to the manager of that ATC facility, if requested by ATC.
(e) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person operating an aircraft may operate that aircraft according to any clearance or instruction that has been issued to the pilot of another aircraft for radar air traffic control purposes.
 
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What would he have to say so you would have allow him to land?

Does one even have to answer “say request”? Isn’t canceling IFR with no request suffice.

He’s canceling IFR with a class D with an official report of 900 ft ceiling. Like Wallly said above, it doesn’t matter what the OP is looking at, Tower didn’t update the ATIS. That’s what approach is going on.

Only options to get in as quick as quick as possible would be a Contact or cancel and then pick up a SVFR. Personally, I just would have requested a Contact over SVFR. Less chance of being delayed.
 
He’s canceling IFR with a class D with an official report of 900 ft ceiling. Like Wallly said above, it doesn’t matter what the OP is looking at, Tower didn’t update the ATIS. That’s what approach is going on.

Only options to get in as quick as quick as possible would be a Contact or cancel and then pick up a SVFR. Personally, I just would have requested a Contact over SVFR. Less chance of being delayed.

Check post #44.
 
I'd say it is a problem with the tower rather than Nor Cal. It's up to them to let approach control know the airport became VFR and that the ATIS is obsolete. Or, they should have cut a new ATIS on a more timely basis. The approach controller was dealing with a Class D Surface Area, not Class E airspace. The Class D Surface Area was IFR based on the best information available to the approach controller.

Yeah. A quick call to Approach, "we're VFR, sky's clear, I'll get it out and an ATIS cut in a couple minutes" could have prevented the whole fiasco from starting.
 
Check post #44.

Posts aren’t numbered on my phone. If referring to canceling, I have no issues with that and the controller has no authority in the matter. But, request the Contact and work within the system.

If you referring to the controller should’ve picked up the landline and called tower, got no problem with that either. But, the fact is the controller didn’t do that so we have to go on what IFR approach NORCAL is allowing us to execute.
 
ATIS was obviously wrong and the tower for some reason hadn't recorded a new one yet, simple as that. If the approach controller had time to verify with the tower that it was VFR, all would be well with the cancellation. Sounds to me like a simple case of no communication; it happens and the OP happened to be at the right place at the right time for that to happen.

Our ceiling at my airport is recorded with a laser fixed on the ground and shooting straight up. We have one of these sensors on both ends of the runway. The runway is in use defines which laser they'll use. We get METARs with low ceilings all the time when there is ONE cloud in the sky...one and it happens to be over the laser when that particular shot was taken. A quick call to our weather guessers usually solves the issue. Years ago they actually had yellow footprints painted on the observation area where a human actually got off their ass and walked out and stood on the footprints, looked around and recorded the weather information. Then they walked back in and recorded the weather and in turn sent it to the tower so we could record the new ATIS. That doesn't happen anymore.
 
Posts aren’t numbered on my phone. If referring to canceling, I have no issues with that and the controller has no authority in the matter. But, request the Contact and work within the system.

If you referring to the controller should’ve picked up the landline and called tower, got no problem with that either. But, the fact is the controller didn’t do that so we have to go on what IFR approach NORCAL is allowing us to execute.

Here it is. Contact and SVFR would have been no point of discussion for this incident. The field was VFR, Approach just hadn't got the word yet. Approach, until they got word, of course wouldn't be 'approving' VFR entry for landing. But telling the pilot he couldn't cancel was innaproprite. Your response the other day in post #12 would have been approprite, "I would’ve said “cancelation received, Reid Hillview is reporting IFR, ceiling 900 ft, say request.” Pilot would come back with something like, "I'm going over to the Tower, it's clear down there, they're probably making a new ATIS now."

The OP's post #44
"The problem is that there wasn’t a 900 ft ceiling. Over Reid Hillview and vicinity, the ceiling and visibility were VFR in actuality. An hour prior to my flight, yes, the ceiling was 900 ft, but just because the ATIS wasn’t updated, NORCAL wouldn’t let me cancel. People were arriving and departing VFR to and from Reid Hillview at the same time I was being told I couldn’t cancel.

My point, is that if I’m in VFR conditions, no matter where I am planning to land, shouldn’t I be allowed to cancel? Isn’t this the pilot’s decision? And once cancelled (I was in class E airspace) wouldn’t it be between me and RHV tower to negotiate a landing clearance?

A thought experiment: Let’s say that San Martin (E16) was clear (I don’t know if it was, but it seems likely given conditions I was in). If someone had taken off from San Martin going to Reid Hillview. They would have been in VFR all the way. They would have called up Reid Hillview and been cleared to land even though the ATIS was reporting 900 ft, because the tower operators could clearly see that it was VFR. No need to talk to NORCal at all. Meanwhile, I was being vectored all the way around just because of an old ATIS.

A similar situation weather-wise happened in July, again when going to a Young Eagles event at Reid Hillview. IFR conditions at San Jose requiring an IFR departure, reported IFR in the Reid Hillview ATIS but VFR in actuality. Once over Reid Hillview, I let Norcal know I had the field in sight and was cancelling. No problem, “IFR cancellation received, contact Reid Hillview tower on 119.8”. That was one reason why it was a surprise that I couldn’t cancel this last time in August. Seems to depend on the whim of the controller.

I still need to give NORCal a call about this."
 
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ATIS was obviously wrong and the tower for some reason hadn't recorded a new one yet, simple as that. If the approach controller had time to verify with the tower that it was VFR, all would be well with the cancellation. Sounds to me like a simple case of no communication; it happens and the OP happened to be at the right place at the right time for that to happen.

Our ceiling at my airport is recorded with a laser fixed on the ground and shooting straight up. We have one of these sensors on both ends of the runway. The runway is in use defines which laser they'll use. We get METARs with low ceilings all the time when there is ONE cloud in the sky...one and it happens to be over the laser when that particular shot was taken. A quick call to our weather guessers usually solves the issue. Years ago they actually had yellow footprints painted on the observation area where a human actually got off their ass and walked out and stood on the footprints, looked around and recorded the weather information. Then they walked back in and recorded the weather and in turn sent it to the tower so we could record the new ATIS. That doesn't happen anymore.

Another thing that could have happened is they had already cut the ATIS but it hadn't been forwarded to Approach yet. I know you know this but throwing it out there. Three things happen with new weather. Observation, ATIS recording, dissemination. It doesn't happen instantaneously and some time will pass before all concerned get the word. The controller however may conduct operations immediately based on his/her observation if they are a Certified Observer or as soon as they get it from the Observer even if it hasn't been disseminated to other Facilities yet.
 
But wouldn’t that be the tower doing the denying and not approach? Tower owns the Class D, not approach, right? And tower knew it was VFR, because they updated the ATIS when I was on final. Sky clear. How could approach deny my cancellation?

Think I’ll give NORCal a call...



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They are all ATC and nobody owns anything.
I am not sure why you are making such a big deal about this
 
The full approach or a contact were his options. The controller would have denied the visual.

The best and easiest option IMO would have been special VFR. Unless there was a buttload of traffic then he may have incurred a delay for requesting a special. Special VFR is often forgotten but it is a great tool when the weather is below IFR minimums but not bad enough to need to fly an approach.
 
I still don't get that they would NOT let him cancel IFR, how can they not let him cancel??
 
...My point, is that if I’m in VFR conditions, no matter where I am planning to land, shouldn’t I be allowed to cancel? Isn’t this the pilot’s decision?

I'm not a lawyer, but my opinion is that you were VFR as soon as you said that you were cancelling IFR, regardless of what the controller said.

And once cancelled (I was in class E airspace) wouldn’t it be between me and RHV tower to negotiate a landing clearance?

Sounds right to me.



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I still don't get that they would NOT let him cancel IFR, how can they not let him cancel??

Controller misunderstanding of the rules. The OP doesn’t say if he was in the Class D surface area but some controller’s believe that if the pilot is in surfaced based airspace and its reporting IFR, the aircraft can’t be operating VFR. That isn’t always the case (transitioning).
 
The best and easiest option IMO would have been special VFR. Unless there was a buttload of traffic then he may have incurred a delay for requesting a special. Special VFR is often forgotten but it is a great tool when the weather is below IFR minimums but not bad enough to need to fly an approach.

Special VFR wouldn’t have made any difference. The field was full VFR. The ATIS was old and wrong. The issue is that NORCal refused my cancellation of IFR. That shouldn’t have happened.



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I'm not a lawyer, but my opinion is that you were VFR as soon as you said that you were cancelling IFR, regardless of what the controller said.



Sounds right to me.



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Yeah, looking back on it, After he told me I couldn’t have cancelled, I should have come back with “ I’m in VFR conditions, and I AM cancelling IFR. Switching to tower now.”

It really seems to be a 91.123b vs 91.123a situation. paragraph a allows me to cancel if in VFR, but b obliges me to follow ATC instructions when in controlled airspace.

Their instruction was that they would not let me cancel...


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Controller misunderstanding of the rules. The OP doesn’t say if he was in the Class D surface area but some controller’s believe that if the pilot is in surfaced based airspace and its reporting IFR, the aircraft can’t be operating VFR. That isn’t always the case (transitioning).

Definitely not in the Class D surface area. I was in class E and in VFR conditions.


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Controller misunderstanding of the rules. The OP doesn’t say if he was in the Class D surface area but some controller’s believe that if the pilot is in surfaced based airspace and its reporting IFR, the aircraft can’t be operating VFR. That isn’t always the case (transitioning).
He said he was at 5000 feet when this happened, so he would have been in class E airspace given where he probably was.
 
Definitely not in the Class D surface area. I was in class E and in VFR conditions.


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Ok, then the response I gave earlier is appropriate. Of course I would’ve keyed up the landline to tower first and see if the field was still reporting IFR. Or, in the situation like Tim described (military) I’ve called weather before and said “hey, Blade11 has got the field 20 miles out, are we still IFR?” Either way, when there isn’t a timely update to the ATIS, the approach controller can push the issue. You just happened to have one who didn’t.
 
Okay, I just got off the phone with a supervisor at NORCal. He agreed that his controller was in error to tell me that I couldn’t cancel IFR. He agreed with me that when a pilot is in Class E and cancels IFR, the controller has no authority to disallow that. That corresponds with my expectations and explains why I was so surprised to hear the controller tell me he couldn’t let me cancel.

He said he would talk with his controllers to remind them that they can’t prevent a pilot from cancelling (outside of A, of course)


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Okay, I just got off the phone with a supervisor at NORCal. He agreed that his controller was in error to tell me that I couldn’t cancel IFR. He agreed with me that when a pilot is in Class E and cancels IFR, the controller has no authority to disallow that. That corresponds with my expectations and explains why I was so surprised to hear the controller tell me he couldn’t let me cancel.

He said he would talk with his controllers to remind them that they can’t prevent a pilot from cancelling (outside of A, of course)


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Good. Really glad to hear the problem isn’t up the food chain. You helped prevent another pilot from maybe having to go through the same frustration someday. Good job
 
You could have asked for a contact approach. That effectively frees you of the VFR cloud minimums and let’s you go in visually when the ceilings are too low for a formal visual approach.

You have to ask for it (they can’t offer it) and of course only do it if you’re really clear of clouds and very familiar with the area... but it’s a tool in your IFR toolbox.
 
I don’t have a problem doing either one, but I’ve flown with pilots who refuse to do either one.

I had one CFII tell me to completely forget the term, and remove it from my vocabulary because he thought that they were so unsafe. I'm not sure I agree. But, I am also no as experienced as he is. So, while I have not followed his Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind suggestion, I do try to remember that they can be dangerous.
 
Except a contact has IFR priority over SVFR.

Also, I see a lot of notices on the VFR charts in a lot of Class B and C airspaces "NO SVFR." But I never see "No Contact Approach."
 
I had one CFII tell me to completely forget the term, and remove it from my vocabulary because he thought that they were so unsafe. I'm not sure I agree. But, I am also no as experienced as he is. So, while I have not followed his Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind suggestion, I do try to remember that they can be dangerous.
Keep in mind that being “experienced” doesn’t necessarily mean being experienced in flying visually with low visibility or ceilings...or even having thought much about the factors involved.

It’s very possible that this CFII was merely parroting what somebody else told him.

While there is a certain level of risk that doesn’t exist in other areas of flight, the risk is just as manageable as that of other areas of flight that are more widely accepted.
 
Keep in mind that being “experienced” doesn’t necessarily mean being experienced in flying visually with low visibility or ceilings...or even having thought much about the factors involved.

It’s very possible that this CFII was merely parroting what somebody else told him.

While there is a certain level of risk that doesn’t exist in other areas of flight, the risk is just as manageable as that of other areas of flight that are more widely accepted.

He actually was very experienced flying IFR in single engine planes, and in fact took me into IFR to shoot approaches during our training. And from my observations, was very knowledgeable. He is an older CFII, and retired from a non-aviation industry. So, he wasn't a young pup grinding hours to get to his next job. I think I was a little different from his usual green students who would just take everything he said at face value. He mostly knew his stuff cold. He was very conservative, and that obviously serves pilots quite well. So, I don't take issue with that. But, once he told me something that I thought was wrong, and I sent him an opinion letter from the FAA's general counsel. He didn't really like that. He made some comment about how most students (who don't have law degrees and years of litigation experience) don't have access to such resources. Ultimately, we drifted apart and I got a different CFII that I clicked better with. But, I always try to take what I can from everyone. He had something to offer me, and I tried to take advantage of his knowledge, while still using my own judgment.
 
He actually was very experienced flying IFR in single engine planes, and in fact took me into IFR to shoot approaches during our training. And from my observations, was very knowledgeable. He is an older CFII, and retired from a non-aviation industry. So, he wasn't a young pup grinding hours to get to his next job. I think I was a little different from his usual green students who would just take everything he said at face value. He mostly knew his stuff cold. He was very conservative, and that obviously serves pilots quite well. So, I don't take issue with that. But, once he told me something that I thought was wrong, and I sent him an opinion letter from the FAA's general counsel. He didn't really like that. He made some comment about how most students (who don't have law degrees and years of litigation experience) don't have access to such resources. Ultimately, we drifted apart and I got a different CFII that I clicked better with. But, I always try to take what I can from everyone. He had something to offer me, and I tried to take advantage of his knowledge, while still using my own judgment.
No argument there, but again, nothing you said indicated any experience with visual flying in low conditions.

Take what you can from everyone, but take it for what it is. ;)
 
SVFR is pretty much a necessity for helo ops. That’s why the whole “no SVFR” doesn’t apply. Seen some pretty sucky WX flying SVFR, even for a helo. Flight of two, get cleared into the class D SVFR with 1 SM BLDU and then an IFR C-130 pops out of nowhere and cuts you off on final. :mad:
 
Flight of two, get cleared into the class D SVFR with 1 SM BLDU and then an IFR C-130 pops out of nowhere and cuts you off on final. :mad:
Some controller screwed that up. (Assuming you and the C-130 were both following the rules.)
 
Some controller screwed that up. (Assuming you and the C-130 were both following the rules.)

Correct. But, overseas (Bagram), rules tend to be bent or some cases, just misunderstood.
 
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