Landing without aileron or elevator (no yoke)

We did that training when I prepared for my private. Open doors to induce drag right or left. trim up or down. add or remove power as needed. We were able to get llined up with the runway for a reasonable landing if necessary. wasn't too difficult with a cessna 1xx series.
 
FORANE said:
We did that training when I prepared for my private. Open doors to induce drag right or left. trim up or down. add or remove power as needed. We were able to get llined up with the runway for a reasonable landing if necessary. wasn't too difficult with a cessna 1xx series.
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I notice you just said you were able to get lined up with the runway... but it sounds like you didn't actually land. ;)

Flaring with trim alone sounds like a fairly iffy proposition, not something your CFI would want you to actually do for practice. I wonder if anyone has actually practiced this.
 
I'd hate to have to do it - but you can bet I'd try and I have reasonable confidence I could pull it off.

One day a few years back, I was waiting to take off and had to delay because of a "disabled aircraft" inbound; I watched as a good friend landed a twin in an (to appearances) perfect landing - but he had essentially no aileron control at all as a result of a maintenance error; flew it with rudder and differential engine power, and all was well (except the excessive butt-pucker). Modified my "controls free and correct": to "controls free and correct to the stops."
 
My private instructor demoed it for me. It was amazing. He did a whole lap around the pattern with just trim, power and rudder.
 
It doesn't have to be a good landing--just survivable and on the runway.

Also, don't need to open doors if your rudder works. That said, don't mess with flaps once you're configured and stable.
 
my CFI had me do this until 200 ft AGL during my private, I sometimes do it up at altitude, maneuver just with rudder and trim. I did not land though
 
One time, just for fun, my son and I flew the entire DUMPY STAR (now the YEAGR), from cruising altitude south of the Cedar Creek VOR until we were essentially in the pattern, using only power, trim and rudder. This was in a very nicely-sorted Debonair in the flying club.

Unfortunately, this turned out to be the last recorded IFR flight for this particular aircraft, as it was flown into the side of a mountain in Colorado one week later. :(
 
Sounds like United 232 when the "landed" in Sioux City. Lost all control of primary flight surfaces due to an engine failure and hydraulic leak.
 
I knew an old CFI who would pull out that trick whenever he had student that wouldn't stop over controlling during landing.
 
I've practiced flying the MU-2 using only trim. It's a good thing to practice.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I knew an old CFI who would pull out that trick whenever he had student that wouldn't stop over controlling during landing.
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Sounds like my instructor. If I was having problems in the pattern he would ask to fly one. He would fly the whole thing with throttle, rudder, and trim, using the flaps as normal. "Throttle and trim to maintain 90 knots and pattern altitude. 10 degrees flaps and trim it out abeam the threshold. 20 degrees flaps at the perch and since I am lazy I'll just use the trim and rudder to turn." The man can fly.
 
When I did my Private we did one whole session using throttle, rudder and elevator trim. He had me fly it right down and just used the elevator to flare. Good practice and I have played with it in various airplanes over the years.
 
azure said:
Flaring with trim alone sounds like a fairly iffy proposition, not something your CFI would want you to actually do for practice. I wonder if anyone has actually practiced this.
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I practiced this in Alaska in a C-207 all the way to the flair. We just didn't want the additional risk of touching down on the short and narrow gravel strip, but I felt that if we had practiced on a wide paved runway then the touchdown would not have been too abnormal.

We just trimmed up for airspeed then used throttle for altitude, not actually using the trim wheel until close to the ground.
 
If you’ve lost aileron and elevator control I’d say you did real good if you managed to ball it up on a runway and walk away.
 
azure said:
That was my thought too...
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It is not as hard as seems done it many times to full landing in a zlin 242l. Kathy@ wingsoveraerobatics in leesburg fl will make you a pro at it.
 
Reminds me of an old tale from the place where I first started taking lessons: It was called Murvihill's and they had an Ercoupe. So one day Murvihill is giving a student instruction in the Ercoupe and they are on final approach. He's sitting with his arms crossed looking out the right window and noticed the touchdown was a bit harsh so he turns to the student and notices him sitting there with his arms crossed looking out the left window.
 
That video exercise shows a plane that's nicely balanced flying a huge pattern to a big runway on a calm day. None of that applies to my regular flying. Ending in a survivable crash would be the best I'd hope for.
 
We didn't take it to touch down but before I solo'd my CFI did a number of flights without touching the yoke. It was a confidence builder and a good way to get in touch with the plane. We never landed, somewhere on final the controls would magically start working again.. just like the engine always magically restarts ;)
 
Stewartb said:
That video exercise shows a plane that's nicely balanced flying a huge pattern to a big runway on a calm day. None of that applies to my regular flying. Ending in a survivable crash would be the best I'd hope for.
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So if the only issue is the controls why can't you fly to a big airport and fly a big pattern. I would bet money I could get one down without major damage. If you have never tried it it is amazing how much control you have with just rudder and elevator trim.
 
If I was in reach of a big airport? Maybe. Well, not in my 180 if it was lightly loaded. Trim won't keep the nose high enough in that case. Not with flaps, anyway. I wouldn't want to land it fast without the yoke. Like I said, survivable crash.
 
Stewartb said:
...I wouldn't want to land it fast without the yoke...
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Well, it's not like you can just stay up there. You'd just have to do something you wouldn't want to do. I think the mental issue of completely losing elevator and aileron control would be the first issue to get over. In that regards a little practice like this probably goes a long way, just in case the yoke ever comes completely out of the socket and you're holding it in your hand wondering what to do :eek:
 
No ****, Sherlock. Like I said more than once, survivable crash.
 
In my private training I did a full lap in the pattern to a full stop using only power, trim, and the doors. It was scary and eye opening. But my landing was fairly smooth and my instructor was hovering close to the controls the entire time.

Stewart: it was at Merrill and my traffic pattern wasn't super huge. I was on downwind for 25 over 15th, turned base before Costco. Push the door further out, turn faster.
 
flyingron said:
I may bend your precious airplane, but I'll get it down.
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Big airport is not needed unless 2500 x 40 is considered big, Part of the exercise is to return to the airport from 40 miles away and not turn a situation into a emergency.
 
busa2r said:
Big airport is not needed unless 2500 x 40 is considered big, Part of the exercise is to return to the airport from 40 miles away and not turn a situation into a emergency.
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Ummm... in my book, flight control failure IS an emergency.
 
busa2r said:
Big airport is not needed unless 2500 x 40 is considered big, Part of the exercise is to return to the airport from 40 miles away and not turn a situation into a emergency.
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Or as Al Hayes said: You want to be particular and make it a runway, huh?"

It's an entirely different kind of flying, all together.
 
Teaching to fly with trim is good but also teach that if flying with trim, if the control surface is jammed, the trim has to be used the opposite direction if the trim is now being used as a flight control.

Going to surprise someone someday if they think they can fly with trim with a jammed elevator if you don’t.
 
Guess times just changed over the years. When I instructed back in the 80's I had my students do this until proficient. Also made my instrument students fly with throttle, rudder and trim down the ILS. My primary instructor had me do it and he made a real good argument for why it should be taught. I'd even pull it on Flight Reviews (aka BFR). Flying with my son Sunday - he was never taught this (obviously I wasn't his instructor). Guess what surprise I have in store for him!;)
 
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flyingron said:
Or as Al Hayes said: You want to be particular and make it a runway, huh?"

It's an entirely different kind of flying, all together.
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It’s an entirely different kind of flying.
 
What are the failure scenarios that result in a disabled elevator with a working trim? I donut get it. Probably because I fly a mooney.
 
Salty said:
What are the failure scenarios that result in a disabled elevator with a working trim? I donut get it. Probably because I fly a mooney.
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You’d likely have an elevator jam while your entire empennage still moves. :) You Mooney guys wiggle your tails.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that. :)
 
Salty said:
What are the failure scenarios that result in a disabled elevator with a working trim? I donut get it. Probably because I fly a mooney.
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It's an interesting exercise, maybe even "fun"
Bottom line however is a lot of things are gonna happen to you in life but this ain't one of them.
 
Salty said:
What are the failure scenarios that result in a disabled elevator with a working trim? I donut get it. Probably because I fly a mooney.
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I never thought it was about preparing anyone for any kind of likely real world failure mode. I always figured it was an exercise to help break students of their habit of over controlling the plane in the pattern.
 
We did it in the airline simulators. We had checklists for jammed elevators and rudders (757/767) it is doable but a hard session. You have to be gentle with your power inputs with wing mounted engines. The MD11 used the number 2 engine for pitch and the wing mounted engines for rudder. It is true Goldilocks flying. What Al Haynes and his crew did was beyond amazing.
 
I had an instructor on a checkout basically fly a Grumman Tiger with nothing but trim and a single finger, then trim and rudder.
 
denverpilot said:
Teaching to fly with trim is good but also teach that if flying with trim, if the control surface is jammed, the trim has to be used the opposite direction if the trim is now being used as a flight control.

Going to surprise someone someday if they think they can fly with trim with a jammed elevator if you don’t.
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Not to mention that in some planes with elevator trim on only one side you'll get a little rolling moment at no extra charge.
 
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