Suddenly jonesing to own

Doug F said:
Thank you all for your thoughts. I think my trip to FL will influence my decision. Oh, and getting my sigOther into the plane is a must have if i want to justify this as a travel option - see honey, for the price of a nice used RV we can skip the traffic jams.

What got me seriously thinking about this was the realization we could fly to NH in about 10 hours with stops instead of a long 2 day drive.
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You may discover that a 2 seat aircraft will carry two people and a toothbrush fully fueled. A 4 seat aircraft is better suited to traveling with 2. BTDT. I had an AA1A which was a nice little traveling airplane...for one.

I know you don't have a PPL, but getting it would open up a world of safe, used, affordable aircraft with good loading characteristics for two to travel. I replaced my AA1A with and AA5 years ago and it will carry two, luggage, any everything we shop for on a trip. Flying to Maine and stopping at LL Bean is dangerous!
 
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Concur Aeroprakt and Dennis Long for the details on it. Dennis has flown them coast-to-coast and frequently puts 10-20 hours per week on his. Great airplane with lots of various options which you can tailor to suit your needs. Dennis is a good guy. I've known him since well before he became an Aeroprakt dealer for the US. I've never seen anyone fly as much as he does simply for the pleasure of flying...and he fell in love with them. He won't steer you wrong.
 
Doug F said:
I've flown enough now to understand how nice it is to bypass auto traffic to get from point A to point B. (taking my first long trip next month from Georgia to FL 5 hr vs 8-10 and I get to avoid Atlanta traffic!). Suddenly the idea of owning has some traction.
I'm just starting to poke around looking at LSA but have no clue what constitutes a good deal vs crap.
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You're wanting to buy an airplane to use for travel. LSA's and the sport pilot license that goes along with it were never intended for traveling. Yeah you can do it, but that's not what its really for. And sooner or later it could bite you hard.

If all your trips are extremely short, meaning 48 hours or less from the time the plane leaves the hangar to the time its back, or you're in position where 100% of your trips can be extended up to 5 days more than originally planned, then using a sport pilot cert and an LSA could be viable IMO. But if you don't meet those criteria and you're trying to get from point A to point B on a schedule in an LSA, you run a very strong risk of sooner or later finding yourself trying to pick your way home in weather you've got no business flying in.

If you're sure that I'm absolutely wrong in my speculation then fair enough. I would suggest you looks the RV12 or the Rans LSA stuff. Like it or not, the 162 was a failure for Cessna. For that reason alone I'd expect a smaller pool of potential buyers at resale time.

But seriously. If point A to point B travel on a schedule is your mission, I strongly recommend upgrading to a private cert and adding an instrument ticket.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
You're wanting to buy an airplane to use for travel. LSA's and the sport pilot license that goes along with it were never intended for traveling. Yeah you can do it, but that's not what its really for. And sooner or later it could bite you hard.

If all your trips are extremely short, meaning 48 hours or less from the time the plane leaves the hangar to the time its back, or you're in position where 100% of your trips can be extended up to 5 days more than originally planned, then using a sport pilot cert and an LSA could be viable IMO. But if you don't meet those criteria and you're trying to get from point A to point B on a schedule in an LSA, you run a very strong risk of sooner or later finding yourself trying to pick your way home in weather you've got no business flying in.

If you're sure that I'm absolutely wrong in my speculation then fair enough. I would suggest you looks the RV12 or the Rans LSA stuff. Like it or not, the 162 was a failure for Cessna. For that reason alone I'd expect a smaller pool of potential buyers at resale time.

But seriously. If point A to point B travel on a schedule is your mission, I strongly recommend upgrading to a private cert and adding an instrument ticket.
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I mean that's the same deal if he goes to Private, too. It seems to me that unless you have an instrument rating and own a share or whole of an instrument rated aircraft then GA planes aren't viable personal transportation options. I sort of view them as comparable to motorcycle travel. Make a destination just a point to take the trip and if you have to double your length that you anticipated then that's what you do.
 
LoLPilot said:
I mean that's the same deal if he goes to Private, too. It seems to me that unless you have an instrument rating and own a share or whole of an instrument rated aircraft then GA planes aren't viable personal transportation options.
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So we agree.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
So we agree.
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I don't think we ever didn't agree. I just see some guys saying "get your PPL." Well if you want to travel according to a schedule, get a PPL, instrument rating, and instrument rated aircraft. I completely gave up on the idea of ever flying myself around on trips I needed to take early in my PPL. Kind of depressing really, but hence the motorcycle comment. I've taken a few bike trips, but on those the destination is really just the cherry on top of the ice cream. If I have a three day trip, I block a week for it. If it's pouring rain, I'll stop. If I'm starting to get fatigued where I'm going to make a dumb decision, I'll stop. For those trips the journey is the point of the venture. Albeit a neophyte private pilot, I kind of view GA the same way.
 
LoLPilot said:
I don't think we ever didn't agree.
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Yeah we do.

I've taken a few bike trips, but on those the destination is really just the cherry on top of the ice cream. If I have a three day trip, I block a week for it. If it's pouring rain, I'll stop. If I'm starting to get fatigued where I'm going to make a dumb decision, I'll stop. For those trips the journey is the point of the venture. Albeit a neophyte private pilot, I kind of view GA the same way.
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There is nothing in this that I disagree with. Its an absolutely healthy safe way to approach what you're doing. And though I framed it in a very different way, its more or less exactly what I said in my post that you seem to disagree with. If you need to travel on a schedule, LSA ain't a smart way to do it and will bite you if you try to do it long enough.

But here's the thing you seem to be missing. There is absolutely nothing the OP said that suggests his need to travel isn't bound by a schedule. And in fact, his desire to travel by plane in order to save time over sitting in traffic would suggest (to me anyway) that he does in fact need to travel on a schedule.

The OP didn't really clarify so both of us are speculating. But people tend to ride motorcycles for the fun of it. The OP didn't say he wanted to own a plane for travel because of the fun of it. He said he wants to own a plane for travel because of the speed of it. Again, that do me suggests a schedule. I could be wrong and if I am, great. But if I'm not, I stand by my previous statement. Trying to travel on a schedule with LSA is a recipe for disaster.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Yeah we do.

There is nothing in this that I disagree with. Its an absolutely healthy safe way to approach what you're doing. And though I framed it in a very different way, its more or less exactly what I said in my post that you seem to disagree with. If you need to travel on a schedule, LSA ain't a smart way to do it and will bite you if you try to do it long enough.

But here's the thing you seem to be missing. There is absolutely nothing the OP said that suggests his need to travel isn't bound by a schedule. And in fact, his desire to travel by plane in order to save time over sitting in traffic would suggest (to me anyway) that he does in fact need to travel on a schedule.

The OP didn't really clarify so both of us are speculating. But people tend to ride motorcycles for the fun of it. The OP didn't say he wanted to own a plane for travel because of the fun of it. He said he wants to own a plane for travel because of the speed of it. Again, that do me suggests a schedule. I could be wrong and if I am, great. But if I'm not, I stand by my previous statement. Trying to travel on a schedule with LSA is a recipe for disaster.
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Show me exactly where I had issue with any post you made on this thread. Quote it.

I'm of the opinion that if you're flying GA for scheduled travel - to save money / time / etc you're fighting a losing battle. The only reasons I can see to fly GA is you enjoy it (my case) or you are working towards an airline career. I'd assume since the OP is pitting the purchase against an RV - not exactly a "get there" vehicle - that it's for recreational travel. Either way it's impractical. Enjoyment is the only logical reason I can see to own a GA aircraft.
 
LoLPilot said:
I'd assume since the OP is pitting the purchase against an RV - not exactly a "get there" vehicle - that it's for recreational travel.
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I think you're reading something into what the OP said that isn't there. Its true he did mention the cost of a plane as opposed to an RV. But he did so in the context of convincing the wife. And if he had stopped there, I'd say your assumption was likely correct and flying is not about saving time to him. But he didn't stop there. In fact this the very next thing he wrote:

What got me seriously thinking about this was the realization we could fly to NH in about 10 hours with stops instead of a long 2 day drive.
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That is in direct conflict with the assumption that the OP wants to travel without a schedule and time doesn't matter.

You and I disagree that its completely impractical in a GA single. I think it can be done depending on your needs. I know this because I've done it. But I think we both agree that if you're going to purchase a plane specifically for this mission, a non-IFR LSA is not the best choice. Again, unless you've got a big flexible window in your schedule. People have flown all over the country in VFR cubs and Steerman so its definitely doable. But you need a really flexible schedule to get it done and most of us don't have that.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I think you're reading something into what the OP said that isn't there. Its true he did mention the cost of a plane as opposed to an RV. But he did so in the context of convincing the wife. And if he had stopped there, I'd say your assumption was likely correct and flying is not about saving time to him. But he didn't stop there. In fact this the very next thing he wrote:

That is in direct conflict with the assumption that the OP wants to travel without a schedule and time doesn't matter.

You and I disagree that its completely impractical in a GA single. I think it can be done depending on your needs. I know this because I've done it. But I think we both agree that if you're going to purchase a plane specifically for this mission, a non-IFR LSA is not the best choice. Again, unless you've got a big flexible window in your schedule. People have flown all over the country in VFR cubs and Steerman so its definitely doable. But you need a really flexible schedule to get it done and most of us don't have that.
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Okay. We don't disagree but I think we have read replies as if we do.

I am assuming that the OP is retired, based on how the original message sounded. Now obviously it can be practical. Back to the bike comparison, between late March and early June I can have entire weeks of sunny weather that's not stupid hot where I can ride my motorcycle to work and just change into dress pants and shoes when I get there. My students and coworkers don't care that my shirt is a little rumpled and some of them think it's cool that I ride. There it is practical because I can park right next to the building where my office is (motorcycle lot) and I get 10 mpg better than my car. However I wouldn't have bought a motorcycle justifying it by saying "I'll ride this to work all the time to save gas money." Tons of bikes languish in garages after the new owner encounters their first sub-50 degree day or pop-up rainstorm for the first time. The VFR aircraft seems to be the same. If conditions line up for you then yeah you can turn a three hour drive into a 45 minute flight, but I wouldn't buy a plane counting on that. I'd buy a plane because I want a plane and take the happy coincidences where I can get them!:)
 
Get a PPL and a Van's RV of some flavor. When you catch good weather, you can cover some distances in an RV. Last summer, my brother was looking at a(nother) Pitts to buy. He wanted to go look at one in Calhoun, GA. We took off in my RV-4 at 9:30am and flew about 30 miles for fuel and then on to Calhoun. We looked at the Pitts and visited with seller for an hour, grabbed the courtesy car and went for lunch, came back and refueled the RV, visited with several IAC folks for 20-30 minutes and headed home. We covered just a bit over 500nm in 3h 15m hours flying averaging 155kts at lower altitude due to thick but broken layer. From take-off to touchdown at home was 6 hours even.

You can travel VFR if you have the right plane. You just have to pick the days...and be ready to occasionally get surprised. We had planned an earlier departure on the above trip, but had an hour delay to to maintenance squawk. We still beat the normal typical summer t-storms which built up a bit later. Of course, this was easily a trip we could have postponed or canceled. I have, however, made runs from Memphis area to Birmingham and back just for lunch with my daughter. That 7 hour round-trip drive is 2 hours flying. I've also cancelled a few due to weather, but they were typically due to T-storms which would have precluded an IFR flight or at least extended it quite a bit.
 
There are a lot of light sport aircraft that cruise at over 120kts, and will carry more load than most entry level "real" airplanes.
 
NordicDave said:
Also checkout this nice 182Q from Van Bortel. Very nice people to deal with and they have a 1 year money back guarantee. If the plane develops a problem, they will give you your money back. Perfect for a first time buyer. They will also deliver for the sale price as posted.

https://vanbortel.com/aircraft-for-sale/aircraft-inventory/1038/1979-cessna-182q-skylane-ii

This plane is $800 per month for $20K down and 20 years.

It's a lot more plane than an LSA, but you get there in fast at 130+ KTS and 1150lb useful load.
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$150K for a 182 with the best 1980s avionics money can buy!


lol
 
UngaWunga said:
$150K for a 182 with the best 1980s avionics money can buy!


lol
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For 10k more you can get any number of S-LSA’s with glass cockpits, flying a few knots slower. If your not looking to file or put more than 2 people in it they are a bargain IMO, compared to aging legacy aircraft. Time to spare...go by air.
 
I don't know what the used price would be, but at Oshkosh I was really impressed with the Bristel LSA. That was a sweet airplane and I would love to own one. Fully IFR capable and very comfortable (I sat in it).
 
BTW, an Aeroprakt A-22 crashed at Voznesenka, 35 km west of Krasnoyarsk, Russia yesterday. The official Investigation Committee video shows a near vertical impact near the departure end of the runway. The airplane was on a shakedown flight after an unspecified maintenance. The pilot, Petr Shevtsov, RuAF Col., Ret., 65 y.o., died.
https://twitter.com/sledcom_rf/status/1032271734936879105
 
Shepherd said:
There are a lot of light sport aircraft that cruise at over 120kts, and will carry more load than most entry level "real" airplanes.
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The speed would disqualify them from being classified as LSA in the USA.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
The speed would disqualify them from being classified as LSA in the USA.
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Actually, I was only referring to aircraft currently sold in the US of A under LSA rules.
Look for aircraft that say: "Don't operate above xxxx rpm for more than 10 minutes." My experience has been that has nothing to do with limitations on the engine, and everything to do with how fast the aircraft will actually fly.
And gross weight is often a complete joke. Do you really think a 180 HP Carbon Cub can't lift more than 1,320 lbs safely? Or a Jairu 230D? Those are 2 that immediately come to mind.
IMHO, much of what the FAA has "ordered" in the last 30 years has more to do with justifying their existence and getting paid (legally or illegally) than pilot and aircraft safety.
 
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