Surveillance approach

AndrewX

AndrewX

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I did a practice surveillance approach (ASR) today at HSV. It was a lot of fun.

When he said:

"This is your final controller, do not respond to any more communications."

It was hard not to repeat it back. :)
 
“Do not acknowledge further transmissions.” I’ve had to repeat that transmission more than once because lot of pilots who never have done a radar approach will actually keep talking. Most and a good idea, will acknowledge the landing clearance though.
 
AndrewX said:
I did a practice surveillance approach (ASR) today at HSV. It was a lot of fun.

When he said:

"This is your final controller, do not respond to any more communications."

It was hard not to repeat it back. :)
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Kinda fun, huh. Could you tell if the final controller unkeyed between transmissions, or did he keep it keyed all the way down? If you can find one, do a PAR someday.
 
Yeah I’m sure if you went across the street to Redstone, they’d let you do a PAR with a low approach.
 
"This will be a no-gyro, surveillance approach using PAR azimuth. Mileages will be from touchdown. Recommended altitudes will be provided for each mile on final with missed approach point one mile. "

Back in my day with the FPN-62, you couldn't get rated in PAR if you didn't run at least two of those. Believe me, on a fast mover like a T-38 or an F-16, by the time you got all that out at the beginning, they'd already flown a mile or so. The PAR antenna here was dismantled and sold to the Navy just last week. We installed an ILS to runway 12 and didn't need it anymore...thank God. A conservative estimate on PAR/Surveillance approaches that I've ran in 24 years is well into the thousands and I'll never run another again. I can live with that.
 
My primary instructor was ex-military and loved doing ASRs and PARs. We'd shoot ASRs at Fayetteville, AR and go down to Little Rock AFB for PARs. They're a freakin' hoot. I haven't shot one in probably 10years...need to go shoot some again. I wonder if Forney Field at Ft. Leorand Wood has one or the other...I need to find out. That's the closest possibility to where I'm currently domiciled.
 
I like doing those at at KNFW (Fort Worth Joint Reserve base). They are always low approach only, since it's military and they are afraid of civilian tire rubber :)

The closest to do it all the way to landing is KACT (Waco, TX about 80nm away).

It's fun and easy.

Do the no-gyro. "Turn x... stop turning... turn y... stop turning." And then you look up and find a runway!
 
EdFred said:
I always like when they give headings like 083. Yeah like the needle is that precise.
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If they are using PAR it is. If they are using ASR, by the time the target moves on the scope, anything less than 5 degrees will seldom have effect. Good ol’ fashion ASR anyway. There may be more precise higher update ones now
 
luvflyin said:
If they are using PAR it is. If they are using ASR, by the time the target moves on the scope, anything less than 5 degrees will seldom have effect. Good ol’ fashion ASR anyway. There may be more precise higher update ones now
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+-5 on an ASR and +-2 on a PAR was my technique. 1 degree turns were almost universally unheard of. Always a good facility debate topic though. :)
 
luvflyin said:
If they are using PAR it is. If they are using ASR, by the time the target moves on the scope, anything less than 5 degrees will seldom have effect. Good ol’ fashion ASR anyway. There may be more precise higher update ones now
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Last time I flew one a couple years ago, they were giving out 1 and 2 degree heading changes. Facility was GRR.
 
Love em. I request em every time I go to Bismarck.
 
EdFred said:
Last time I flew one a couple years ago, they were giving out 1 and 2 degree heading changes. Facility was GRR.
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They don’t seem to have PAR there so they would have been doing the Surveillance Approach with ASR. We’re you getting lot of those 1 and 2 degree turns, one right after the other?
 
EdFred said:
Last time I flew one a couple years ago, they were giving out 1 and 2 degree heading changes. Facility was GRR.
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I can't see a two-degree heading change...I'd have to turn 5 and then back three the other way to get it. ;)
 
Velocity173 said:
“Do not acknowledge further transmissions.” I’ve had to repeat that transmission more than once because lot of pilots who never have done a radar approach will actually keep talking. Most and a good idea, will acknowledge the landing clearance though.
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I'll also interrupt with with "Wheels Down" if I didn't say so earlier. Been doing a few in the last bunch of years.

Back when I was flying jumpers, I had to do an ASR for real when the clouds closed in during a jump run. All I had for instruments was a compass (no DG), altimeter and a ball & needle. Needless to say, I got a no gyro approach. Clouds had been scattered 1000' all day, with a higher broken layer. Broke out right at 600' (minimums) with the runway right in front of me. Started getting worried as I went through 900' so it was a HUGE relief when I saw the runway materialize. The next option was about 25 minutes south for a PAR, and that would have created some big problems since they didn't allow civilian aircraft to do PARs there, let alone land.
 
Anymouse said:
I'll also interrupt with with "Wheels Down" if I didn't say so earlier. Been doing a few in the last bunch of years.

Back when I was flying jumpers, I had to do an ASR for real when the clouds closed in during a jump run. All I had for instruments was a compass (no DG), altimeter and a ball & needle. Needless to say, I got a no gyro approach. Clouds had been scattered 1000' all day, with a higher broken layer. Broke out right at 600' (minimums) with the runway right in front of me. Started getting worried as I went through 900' so it was a HUGE relief when I saw the runway materialize. The next option was about 25 minutes south for a PAR, and that would have created some big problems since they didn't allow civilian aircraft to do PARs there, let alone land.
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When the weathers on the grass, GCA will save your azz.
 
Anymouse said:
I'll also interrupt with with "Wheels Down" if I didn't say so earlier. Been doing a few in the last bunch of years.

Back when I was flying jumpers, I had to do an ASR for real when the clouds closed in during a jump run. All I had for instruments was a compass (no DG), altimeter and a ball & needle. Needless to say, I got a no gyro approach. Clouds had been scattered 1000' all day, with a higher broken layer. Broke out right at 600' (minimums) with the runway right in front of me. Started getting worried as I went through 900' so it was a HUGE relief when I saw the runway materialize. The next option was about 25 minutes south for a PAR, and that would have created some big problems since they didn't allow civilian aircraft to do PARs there, let alone land.
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Yeah they can get ya down in a bind. Got an Army C-12 down once during LIFR and our PAR was OTS. Went missed twice with another RFC. Sup asks me to get in on the action, as if I had some special skill that he didn’t. Went missed with me and declared min fuel. I knew they were going to push it on the next pass. I had them dead on at 2 miles and emphasized my “on course, you are on course.” Sure enough, they went past the 360 ft MDA and I see 300. I continue to roll with it and at around 1.5 miles I see 200 ft. Just getting ready for a safety limits waveoff when I hear “Pat 55, runway in sight...we would’ve made it if it weren’t for you.”

With GPS and ILS, it’s rare these days where a GCA actually is important. It was rewarding in the old days though to get someone down when they had no other options.
 
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luvflyin said:
They don’t seem to have PAR there so they would have been doing the Surveillance Approach with ASR. We’re you getting lot of those 1 and 2 degree turns, one right after the other?
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Like I said it's been a few years, but I wouldn't say a lot. But what is "a lot" ? I got a heading change maybe ever 20 seconds or so? Again from memory.
 
Radio transmission requirement on a PAR is once every 5 seconds whether you need it or not. And people who gave one degree turns got their chair kicked pretty hard by the instructor...okay... me.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Radio transmission requirement on a PAR is once every 5 seconds whether you need it or not.
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"If no transmissions are received for 1 minute in the pattern of 5 seconds on final approach, attempt contact XXX Tower on xxx.xx and proceed VFR. If unable proceed with the XXX Rwy xx approach, over."

It's amazing. It's been over 30 years since I've given a PAR approach and I STILL remember that crap off the top of my head.
 
EdFred said:
Like I said it's been a few years, but I wouldn't say a lot. But what is "a lot" ? I got a heading change maybe ever 20 seconds or so? Again from memory.
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By a lot I was meaning did you keep getting them. Every 20 seconds down 5 miles or so of final I would consider a lot. By the time the airplane has moved far enough to make the target move on an ASR scope, a couple degrees isn't going to get it back. Might get it paralleling, but then you need more to get it back on centerline. It works, but just giving 5 or so, getting it back and then finding the holding heading is usually less tedious.
 
Want a fast mover on final try an F105. At most bases I've been at there would be a wind shear 2-3 miles on final. Sometimes not much of a heading change but I've seen as high as 20 degrees.
 
I've done a few PARs to touchdown at NAS Whidbey Island and NAS Lemoore. That was one of the fun things about having a Navy flying club on base. Our controllers seemed to like giving us PARs. My guess is that it gave those less experienced at the position a chance to practice on something that wasn't burning up the sky.
 
hawk25u said:
Want a fast mover on final try an F105. At most bases I've been at there would be a wind shear 2-3 miles on final. Sometimes not much of a heading change but I've seen as high as 20 degrees.
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We got that at North Island(NZY) every now and then. As soon as the target started moving you’d have to give a big turn RFN. If you gave just the usual couple of degrees when the target first started drifting it was an ugly game of catch up. We’d get the National Guard F106’s out of Fresno(FAT) at Lemoore(NLC.) Those guys was fast. Glidepath was the problem with them. They needed good ‘trend’ information. Above, on or below wasn’t enough. They needed lots of coming down, coming down slowly, slightly above still coming down, etc
 
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hawk25u said:
Want a fast mover on final try an F105. At most bases I've been at there would be a wind shear 2-3 miles on final. Sometimes not much of a heading change but I've seen as high as 20 degrees.
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luvflyin said:
We got that at North Island(NZY) every now and then. As soon as the target started moving you’d have to give a big turn RFN. If you gave just the usual couple of degrees when the target first started drifting it was an ugly game of catch up. We’d get the National Guard F106’s out of Fresno(FAT) at Lemoore(NLC.) Those guys was fast. Glidepath was the problem with them. They needed good ‘trend’ information. Above, on or below wasn’t enough. They needed lots of coming down, coming down slowly, slightly above still coming down, etc
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It was a similar deal at NAS Mayport. As the target came over the river, the wind would change big time. Add to that, sometimes you would have shipping traffic passing by that would show up on the screen, and you'd have to call traffic on the boat, and occaisionally issue the guy a missed approach.
 
Anymouse said:
It was a similar deal at NAS Mayport. As the target came over the river, the wind would change big time. Add to that, sometimes you would have shipping traffic passing by that would show up on the screen, and you'd have to call traffic on the boat, and occaisionally issue the guy a missed approach.
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Did the copter PAR to 23 at NRB once. Didn’t realize it took us so far off shore. Uncomfortable feeling even with single engine capability.
 
Velocity173 said:
Did the copter PAR to 23 at NRB once. Didn’t realize it took us so far off shore. Uncomfortable feeling even with single engine capability.
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I was a back seater in Navy helos. We'd routinely launch to go find a single ship well out to sea with nothing more than TACAN and a promise they'd eventually pick us up on radar.
 
wilkersk said:
I was a back seater in Navy helos. We'd routinely launch to go find a single ship well out to sea with nothing more than TACAN and a promise they'd eventually pick us up on radar.
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Yeah, well I don’t do sharks so I went Army.;) Of course these days, that’s no guarantee you won’t be doing shipboard ops at some point.
 
They are hard to come by these days. Tried to do some with my instructor during my IR training but never got the chance. Would really like to here soon, thanks for posting about this, should give me a little push to go do a couple!
 
kgruber said:
Had a "DF Steer" once. From the Toledo Flight Service Station.

Hold the mike down 10 seconds.............steer 030º
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Lol!!! Betting most here have no clue what that is. That said, the level of knowledge here is higher than the average.
 
kgruber said:
Had a "DF Steer" once. From the Toledo Flight Service Station.

Hold the mike down 10 seconds.............steer 030º
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Never got to do that one. Would have been interesting to see how accurate their DF gear was.
 
denverpilot said:
To know that one, we just have to be old.

Old enough to remember when Flight Service stations were manned and useful. :(
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I'm just barely "old" enough to remember manned FSSs... but I was never taught about DF steers and only read about them here and on the Red Board.
 
Did an asr at kpsm a week or two ago. It was fun, I want to try the par.
 
Did a DF steer during a dual cross country into Salisbury. It was interesting and could probably help someone out that didn't have anything other than a compass for navigation. But that was about it. As VORs and ADFs were installed in more planes, the idea of the DF steer became outdated. Now that pretty much everyone has some sort of GPS on their person, it's totally antiquated.

Anyone remember the 4 course radio range?
 
denverpilot said:
To know that one, we just have to be old.

Old enough to remember when Flight Service stations were manned and useful. :(
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My Dad worked FSS back before automation. When I was a kid, I’d go to work on mids with him and see if I could stay up the whole night. I remember going in one night and being told to keep my mouth shut and stay quiet because they were trying to locate a lost pilot. I observed several FSS specialists huddled around an archaic scope (DF) telling some pilot to key his mike x number of seconds. Not sure if they ever found the guy or not. Back then DF steers were pretty common in remote areas and outside of NAVAID coverage. My Dad even has an FAA award for assisting a lost pilot on FSS freq simply by using landmarks. Like you said, a different time when the specialists knew the area they were working and provided a service that was useful. Been years since I used an AFSS.
 
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