Hypothetical Noob Maintenance Question

LoLPilot

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LoLPilot
Please forgive my ignorance of this process, but in perusing this section I notice a lot of guys working on planes. As one who aspires to be an owner one day, I have a question about legally performing maintenance. Is there a way to get an A&P through an apprenticeship type system rather than attending a school? I enjoy working on my own vehicles for both the experience and the cost savings. There are certainly certain things on my daily that I will take my car to a mechanic for, but on the other hand I have replaced two engines, water pumps, brakes, etc. I go a little beyond what most people consider "preventive maintenance."

It is my understanding that you can perform work on your own aircraft under the supervision of an A&P. They just have to sign off that the work was performed up to their standards, that they reviewed it, and found it to be safe. The regulations seem to imply that if you do this long enough you can sit for the A&P tests and get certified. Am I understanding this wrong?

http://www.airframeandpowerplant.com/Eligibility.html
 
I think you have to be employed for 18 months doing the work, logging it and having it signed off by the shop supervisor. Changing oil or cleaning spark plugs every 50 hours for 18 months won't get it done.
 
Im talking if you did every bit of maintenance yourself while your A&P watched (the so-called owner assisted maintenance). After a couple of years of logging this do you think you could build the time? As I read it, the reg said nothing of employment. It just said "practical experience."
 
I think you would run into trouble with the hours equivalency, 18 months of full time work is about 3,000 hours. How many hours a year do you think you would have after a year with owner's assisted maintenance?
 
I think you would run into trouble with the hours equivalency, 18 months of full time work is about 3,000 hours. How many hours a year do you think you would have after a year with owner's assisted maintenance?

That's why I'm asking. Nothing concrete is stated. It just says "18 months practical experience." Let's take my old Vette I tinker on. Have I put 3000 hours into working on it? No. It may feel like it but I haven't. Yet I've had it in pieces, I've read the Haynes and factory service manuals cover to cover and I feel pretty confident that I could do nearly anything to that car. It may be a PITA and worth farming out but I'm sure I could do it. My Subaru - short of tearing into the electronics or inside the engine I feel pretty confident I could do MOST things. Again some I may choose to farm out based on "what is my time worth to me and I need this car to get to work." I don't have 3000 hours working on either of those cars but I have 18 months of what I could consider "practical experience." Many things I still may take to my mechanic but often times he just says "this looks fine," charges me for half an hour and sends me on my way.
 
I think the issue is that once they give you that license you are free to work on people's AC for money and thus are expected to have a certain level of competence. I get what you are asking, but the best place for the answer is the FAA, I'm thinking you will get an answer like I am giving, but maybe not, let us know if you find out.
 
It just says "18 months practical experience.
The FAA wants to see hours logged equal to the 18 months of full time work.

On the other hand, if you have a good relationship with your A&P, he/she/it can sign off on your work.

On the other, other hand, if you buy an E-AB (homebuilt) aircraft (no need to actually build it yourself) you can do all the maintenance and just have the A&P sign off on the annual condition inspection.
 
I think the issue is that once they give you that license you are free to work on people's AC for money and thus are expected to have a certain level of competence. I get what you are asking, but the best place for the answer is the FAA, I'm thinking you will get an answer like I am giving, but maybe not, let us know if you find out.

I think you are PROBABLY right, but I am interested in finding out. I can ask the IA at my school. It's a shame that they don't issue "personal AP" certificates like the "repair authorization" for experimentals. Back to the car analogy, I don't like to work on my friends cars and certainly couldn't accept payment from them, but I'm capable of working on equipment I am familiar with and doing a good enough job that it could pass a safety inspection.
 
To clarify, you need 18 months for either the A or the P. If you want both, it is 30 months of practical experience. A stated above, this assumes you are working as an apprentice under the supervision of an A&P.

I am working with a friend who has an RV-6 (experimental) and does all his own maintenance. It may take more than 30 months for him to acquire what I feel is the necessary experience but he'll eventually earn the right to prove his knowledge.
 
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To clarify, you need 18 months for either the A or the P. If you want both, it is 30 months of practical experience. A stated above, this assumes you are working as an apprentice under the supervision of an A&P.

I am working with a friend who has an RV-6 (experimental) and does all his own maintenance. It may take more than 30 months for him to acquire what I feel is the necessary experience but he'll eventually earn the right to prove his knowledge.

Can you clarify here?
 
Can you clarify here?

There's nothing to clarify. You need 30 months of combined airframe and powerplant experience to get both the airframe and powerplant ratings on your mechanic certificate. FAR part 65 has the information you're looking for.

I got my mechanic certificate through the apprenticeship method. From what I've seen, I think there are things that the guys who went to school for their certificate are better at than those that got their experience via apprenticeship and vice versa. You'll have your certificate a lot faster if you have the time and ability to go to school for it.
 
Please forgive my ignorance of this process, but in perusing this section I notice a lot of guys working on planes. As one who aspires to be an owner one day, I have a question about legally performing maintenance. Is there a way to get an A&P through an apprenticeship type system rather than attending a school? I enjoy working on my own vehicles for both the experience and the cost savings. There are certainly certain things on my daily that I will take my car to a mechanic for, but on the other hand I have replaced two engines, water pumps, brakes, etc. I go a little beyond what most people consider "preventive maintenance."

It is my understanding that you can perform work on your own aircraft under the supervision of an A&P. They just have to sign off that the work was performed up to their standards, that they reviewed it, and found it to be safe. The regulations seem to imply that if you do this long enough you can sit for the A&P tests and get certified. Am I understanding this wrong?

http://www.airframeandpowerplant.com/Eligibility.html
If you buy an experimental aircraft you can do the work on it if you have the repairman's cert.
 
If you buy an experimental aircraft you can do the work on it if you have the repairman's cert.

Only the condition inspection requires the repairman's cert and it is only good if you built the airplane. If you build and sell the plane, you can still do the CI but the new owner cannot. You, as the owner, can do all the maintenance.
 
I went the apprenticeship route to get mine 30 years ago. The faa is no longer a fan of that route and to do it that way requires extensive time records to prove the 30 months of full time work to get the authorization. It can be done, but it takes a lot of coordination with a friendly faa guy to get the documentation they require.
 
There's nothing to clarify. You need 30 months of combined airframe and powerplant experience to get both the airframe and powerplant ratings on your mechanic certificate. FAR part 65 has the information you're looking for.

I got my mechanic certificate through the apprenticeship method. From what I've seen, I think there are things that the guys who went to school for their certificate are better at than those that got their experience via apprenticeship and vice versa. You'll have your certificate a lot faster if you have the time and ability to go to school for it.

There actually was something with his statement that I wanted clarification on regarding the RV. I PM'd.
 
Best thing to do is develop a good working relationship with an A&P, where he or she will sign off on your work. At that point you can pretty well do whatever you want.

All that said I am far from certain its a good idea. If you bollux the work on your Vette you wind up stranded at the side of the road. Do that in your aircraft and you wind up dead. If I had nickel for everyone I've met who was a better mechanic in their head than in actuality, well... I'd have a whole lot of nickels.

Using your pet A&P as QC seems like a really good idea to me. A second set of eyes is never a bad thing. The good news is the systems in your average aircraft are way simpler than your Vette, unless your Vette was built in the 50s. Some were, and boy are they spanky.
 
Best thing to do is develop a good working relationship with an A&P, where he or she will sign off on your work. At that point you can pretty well do whatever you want.

All that said I am far from certain its a good idea. If you bollux the work on your Vette you wind up stranded at the side of the road. Do that in your aircraft and you wind up dead. If I had nickel for everyone I've met who was a better mechanic in their head than in actuality, well... I'd have a whole lot of nickels.

Using your pet A&P as QC seems like a really good idea to me. A second set of eyes is never a bad thing. The good news is the systems in your average aircraft are way simpler than your Vette, unless your Vette was built in the 50s. Some were, and boy are they spanky.

It was built in late '79, thank you very much ;) Obviously not an aircraft owner right now, but I do aspire, and compared to many of the gentleman here my aspirations are low. I think if I could have ANY plane with the money to maintain it I'd take a Super Decathlon. More realistically, I think I'd really like a Citabria with aluminum spars or a Champ. Really, probably the Champ, though I think that being able to do the occasional roll would be fun if the mood struck. In THAT case, yes the airplane is probably simpler than the Vette, especially if we are talking the miserable vacuum control system.
 
If it doesn't go in the logbook the work was never performed. ;)
 
If it doesn't go in the logbook the work was never performed. ;)

You know, just last night I watched an onboard video from a Dodge Challenger 392 SCAT outrunning a local constable that had the disclaimer "Video taken by professional driver on closed course just south of the Texas border." Just south of the Texas border on a closed course looked an awful lot like central Missouri and had quite a few cars on the road.
 
I have gone through this mentoring process half a dozen times over the last 30 years and here is the deal ...

1. You keep your own time in your own logbook. You are 'on your own" to be reasonable. 40 hours to cotter pin a bolt isn't reasonable. 20 hours to do an oil change with the annotation that minor preventive maintenance on the engine is. If it is reasonable I'll sign it.

2. Paperwork involved with the process counts. Ordering parts, logbook entries, researching ADs, looking up service information, all counts. Hell, I'd give myself an hour just for writing this internet response if I needed the time.

3. If you look me in the eye and swear that the times you wrote are real, I'll do the same for the FAA at the FSDO if push comes to shove. They'd have a dickens of a time proving either one of us was prevaricating the recorded times.

Jim
 
I have gone through this mentoring process half a dozen times over the last 30 years and here is the deal ...

1. You keep your own time in your own logbook. You are 'on your own" to be reasonable. 40 hours to cotter pin a bolt isn't reasonable. 20 hours to do an oil change with the annotation that minor preventive maintenance on the engine is. If it is reasonable I'll sign it.

2. Paperwork involved with the process counts. Ordering parts, logbook entries, researching ADs, looking up service information, all counts. Hell, I'd give myself an hour just for writing this internet response if I needed the time.

3. If you look me in the eye and swear that the times you wrote are real, I'll do the same for the FAA at the FSDO if push comes to shove. They'd have a dickens of a time proving either one of us was prevaricating the recorded times.

Jim

all good stuff from jim. it also helps to be mentored by an A&P that has a good relationship with the FSDO. when I went to present my paperwork to the FSDO, the inspector looked it over and said, "well if fred signed this, your good to go!"
 
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