Flying club ... requesting feedback regarding rates.

woodchucker

woodchucker

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woodchucker
So, I'm trying to get back into some sort of flying club. I just want to know if you think this particular club is a rip-off or not regarding the pricing scheme. The first time buy-in prices were jacked $500 for all three aircraft since when I first checked, maybe mid-June.

The basics: They have three aircraft which they claim to be relatively available. A 172, 182 and a Bonanza.

When I first checked the initial buy-in was $2k for the 172, $3k for the 172+182, and $4k for all three. Now it's plus $500 for each. Monthly dues are $70. Rates for wet are:

172: 120
182: 145
Bonanza: 160

I think those are about the same as when I first checked.

So, good deal? Or bad deal?

The website if you want to dig further: Springville Flying Club

Thanks much for the feedback! Personally, I think they are funding the upper end Bonanza on the backs of the 172/182, but I really am curious what the more experienced community thinks.

One last thing. My only flying experience is in 172s. But I would be interested in learning the other two. If it's a fair pricing scheme, which I'm really doubting. But I am hoping your feedback will confirm or not my doubt.
 
Without researching further and doing a quick shoot from the hip. Here are my thoughts.

Equity club? If yes it’s a good deal.

Non equity club with that high of an initial fee? Depends if you can resell your membership to a future member. If you can, it’s a good deal. If not, no.
 
I don't know what expenses are like in your area. The club here is not too different -- a 172, an Arrow and a V35 Bo. I was a member for a couple of years, but they have no LSA and were completely uninterested in even considering one, despite losing one or two members per year when they couldn't maintain a medical. They used to have a 182 which the Bo replaced. $2K buy-in (no tiers). It does seem like they're letting the 172 flyers underwrite part of the cost of the other two. Maybe it's to encourage guys to move up and get their complex, HP and IR. Is the number of memberships limited? The club here has membership capped at 45, making scheduling pretty easy. Especially for the 172 -- most of the guys who were flying were in the Arrow or 182 when I was a member. Of the 45 members, about half flew either rarely or never.

A nice thing about a flying club (at least in my very limited experience) is that you're a part owner with an equal share. The books should be open and transparent, so if you want to see exactly what things cost you should be able to do so. Since you're talking about buying an ownership position, not just renting an airplane, I'd ask to see whatever you want before buying in.
 
Does the club maintain an account for engine overhaul and airplane refurbishment expenses? If so that cash account is one of the assets you are buying into, and may be the reason for the increase.
 
That 172 wet rate seems to be near or barely better than the going rental rates for clapped out rental 172s in non-club structures. At that point why bother with all the other outlay of a club?

Now unless it's a special 172. Like a 172/180, all blinged out panel, etc.
 
woodchucker said:
So, I'm trying to get back into some sort of flying club. I just want to know if you think this particular club is a rip-off or not regarding the pricing scheme. The first time buy-in prices were jacked $500 for all three aircraft since when I first checked, maybe mid-June.

The basics: They have three aircraft which they claim to be relatively available. A 172, 182 and a Bonanza.

When I first checked the initial buy-in was $2k for the 172, $3k for the 172+182, and $4k for all three. Now it's plus $500 for each. Monthly dues are $70. Rates for wet are:

172: 120
182: 145
Bonanza: 160

I think those are about the same as when I first checked.

So, good deal? Or bad deal?

The website if you want to dig further: Springville Flying Club

Thanks much for the feedback! Personally, I think they are funding the upper end Bonanza on the backs of the 172/182, but I really am curious what the more experienced community thinks.

One last thing. My only flying experience is in 172s. But I would be interested in learning the other two. If it's a fair pricing scheme, which I'm really doubting. But I am hoping your feedback will confirm or not my doubt.
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Assuming the planes are hangared, the dues are reasonable and the flight charges are just kinda so so. I suspect availability for the aircraft is rather limited and they have a lot of members. The avionics in the 3 planes suck and that would preclude my interest.
 
I’ll probably get some lip for this one, but here it goes.

The buy-in+monthly dues+hourly rates seem a tad on the high side, but then again, I have no idea what the going rates are out that way.

For the first year of membership, just to fly the 172, you’re looking at $3,340 and you haven’t even flown a single hour yet. Now, if the initial buy in fee is refundable upon resignation, than that might tempt me a little more.

Again this is all just my observation, seems like you’d be better off finding a flight school and just pay hourly and be done.
 
Ryanb said:
I’ll probably get some lip for this one, but here it goes.

The buy-in+monthly dues+hourly rates seem a tad on the high side, but then again, I have no idea what the going rates are out that way.

For the first year of membership, just to fly the 172, you’re looking at $3,340 and you haven’t even flown a single hour yet. Now, if the initial buy in fee is refundable upon resignation, than that might tempt me a little more.

Again this is all just my observation, seems like you’d be better off finding a flight school and just pay hourly and be done.
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If you want a plane to take for a long weekend or week vacation, the flight school is not usually a viable option.
 
I suspect the high initial fee is to discourage transient members. If you stick around for a long time that should become a non-factor. I suspect this is offset by the low monthly fee. I am paying $120/month for a club with one airplane, so your $70 is on the low side. Three airplanes and 41 members is perfectly in line with normal numbers. I would say go for it, if you plan on living in that area for a while. The three airplanes should be able to accommodate many different mission profiles, for local training or family trips.
 
Clip4 said:
If you want a plane to take for a long weekend or week vacation, the flight school is not usually a viable option.
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Depends. Place I’ve been at for several years will allow it no problem.
 
At my flight school I think they charge a daily minimum of 3 hrs whether you fly or not. Do clubs normally do this as well or is it straight Hobbs/tach time?

We are in the very beginning stages of starting a club at my home airport. More questions will be forthcoming, lol.
 
gdwindowpane said:
At my flight school I think they charge a daily minimum of 3 hrs whether you fly or not. Do clubs normally do this as well or is it straight Hobbs/tach time?

We are in the very beginning stages of starting a club at my home airport. More questions will be forthcoming, lol.
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It would be your club and your rules, but most club I have been in require and 1 to 1.5 hours per day minimum flight charge a day.

It is a balance between reasonable access and silly trips that tie up the plane with no produced revenue. A member taking a plane for a week would be expected to put 7-10 hours on the plane. If they didn't, they would be charged for unflown time.

A member could also lock down a plane for a week to complete training if they logged the billable hours.
 
It's high IMO.

I'd expect a 172 in that arrangement to be more like $100 an hour.

Usually, an equity club with a higher buy in will have lower wet rates.
 
Clip4 said:
It would be your club and your rules, but most club I have been in require and 1 to 1.5 hours per day minimum flight charge a day.

It is a balance between reasonable access and silly trips that tie up the plane with no produced revenue. A member taking a plane for a week would be expected to put 7-10 hours on the plane. If they didn't, they would be charged for unflown time.

A member could also lock down a plane for a week to complete training if they logged the billable hours.
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Glad I’m not involved in a place like these. I have zero minimums as far as flight times, cheap rates and easy availability. It’s ran like a rental/club outfit should be ran.

I cannot complain.
 
I did not see the exit rules on their website. You'll want to know them.

I've been in three clubs. Two (non-equity) I got my total buy-in returned when I left the geographical area. The third (equity) I gained 30% on the sale of my share.

Others will argue, but I think dry tach is the way to bill co-owned or club. Wet makes for "issues" about about off field prices, lack of proper leaning, running WOT all the time (because fuel is free).

If you're owning it, run it like you own it. If you're renting, run it like a rental. [Don't tell Hertz I said that :()
 
Ryanb said:
Glad I’m not involved in a place like these. I have zero minimums as far as flight times, cheap rates and easy availability. It’s ran like a rental/club outfit should be ran.

I cannot complain.
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You must rent from a flight school with no students.
 
Ravioli said:
I did not see the exit rules on their website. You'll want to know them.

I've been in three clubs. Two (non-equity) I got my total buy-in returned when I left the geographical area. The third (equity) I gained 30% on the sale of my share.

Others will argue, but I think dry tach is the way to bill co-owned or club. Wet makes for "issues" about about off field prices, lack of proper leaning, running WOT all the time (because fuel is free).

If you're owning it, run it like you own it. If you're renting, run it like a rental. [Don't tell Hertz I said that :()
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I am curious, how would one manage a dry-tach system?
 
Clip4 said:
You must rent from a flight school with no students.
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Wrong. We have more students now than ever before. Everyone in the area comes to us because of how it’s ran. Very customer friendly operation. The way it should be.
 
Todd82 said:
That 172 wet rate seems to be near or barely better than the going rental rates for clapped out rental 172s in non-club structures. At that point why bother with all the other outlay of a club?

Now unless it's a special 172. Like a 172/180, all blinged out panel, etc.
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That.
 
Ryanb said:
~800. Not as though we’re in a big city either.
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So let's do some math here. 362 rental days (unless you are open Xmas, NYs and TG - 3 days for an annual - 16 days for 100 hour inspections (assuming none ever come due on a weekend), - 5 days a year for unexpected maintenance - 50 weather days a year = 274 days.

So that is about 3 hours a day at 800 per year. And how many walk in pilots is that airplane available to take on long weekends or week long vacations?

With your numbers, only you - maybe.

Most small flight schools are less than 350 hours a year and a training plane. Go to larger school, they are not giving up 21 hours of rental for you to take the plane for a week and 8 hours.
 
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Clip4 said:
So let's do some math here. 362 rental days (unless you are open Xmas, NYs and TG - 3 days for an annual - 16 days for 100 hour inspections (assuming none ever come due on a weekend), - 5 days a year for unexpected maintenance - 50 weather days a year = 274 days.

So that is about 3 hours a day. And how many walk in pilots is that airplane available to take on long weekends or week long vacations?

With your numbers, only you - maybe.

Most small flight schools are less than 350 hours a year and a training plane. Go to larger school, they are not giving up 21 hours of rental for you to take the plane for a week and 8 hours.
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Your math is off, because they fly more than 3 hours per day. Typically on a good day it’s upwards of 6-8.
 
Clip4 said:
Dude, that airplane is available to no one to take on a trip.
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Sure it is.. you book it out ahead of time just like anyone else. Renters do it often.
 
sarangan said:
I am curious, how would one manage a dry-tach system?
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Assuming your serious:
Dry means the member flying pays for the fuel. The guidelines indicate where the fuel level is required to be when finished with a mission. Something like "to the tabs on the mains and full on the tips" for PA32-300 or "to the holes" for a C177RG. Any disputes of fuel quantity are between the member finding the condition and the one who flew just previously.

Tach should be equally obvious. Tach End - Tach Start X $ per tach hour = Member charge for the flight.
 
Bonchie said:
It's high IMO.

I'd expect a 172 in that arrangement to be more like $100 an hour.

Usually, an equity club with a higher buy in will have lower wet rates.
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Agree. I'd expect this to be in the $70-$80 range for a 172N with IFR GPS. That's the rate in our equity club.
 
Ravioli said:
Assuming your serious:
Dry means the member flying pays for the fuel. The guidelines indicate where the fuel level is required to be when finished with a mission. Something like "to the tabs on the mains and full on the tips" for PA32-300 or "to the holes" for a C177RG. Any disputes of fuel quantity are between the member finding the condition and the one who flew just previously.

Tach should be equally obvious. Tach End - Tach Start X $ per tach hour = Member charge for the flight.
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I understand that fuel is the top expense item with flying clubs, but if you are flying a 172 that system isn't worth the headaches.

And if you are flying something injected, it is not worth the club figuring out who burnt a valve.
 
I am interested in this as well. I posted a few weeks ago about the most cost reasonable way to fly after getting a PPL and "club," seems to be the answer. I definitely want to get my tailwheel immediately after my private. I've run into the same basic issues as the OP. Many of the clubs around me charge $120 or so a month and then it's another $120 an hr to rent a 172. They won't let you touch conventional gear planes until you have 25 hours in them dual.

I found one club that is non-equity and the buy-in is less than 1 grand. It also carries about $120 monthly dues but the hourly costs for their planes (older Pipers) is about $50 an hour. That seems really reasonable and the person I spoke with about it was extremely nice. That will probably be the option I go with. However...

The plane I really want to own (if I could own) is a Citabria or Decathlon. Older 115 hp Citabrias can be had in the low 30's in decent condition. The club dues are a bit less than the payment. Yes you have hangar fees and maintenance which drives the cost up a lot compared to the club, but then you also have the "your" airplane thing to consider. If you want to take a two-week vacation of just doing pilotage touring and airport camping you could do that and nobody else will care or is getting hosed by you having the plane gone that long.
 
Clip4 said:
I understand that fuel is the top expense item with flying clubs, but if you are flying a 172 that system isn't worth the headaches.

And if you are flying something injected, it is not worth the club figuring out who burnt a valve.
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umm... yah.. thanks there clip. Are there PA32-300 or C177RG running around with carbs? Highly doubtful, and my examples were specific and real.

The two non-equity clubs I referred to also used - Leave the fuel at X level. Those were PA28-161, PA28-181, and PA28 180. <- Carbs
 
LoLPilot said:
I am interested in this as well. I posted a few weeks ago about the most cost reasonable way to fly after getting a PPL and "club," seems to be the answer ...
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I think so too. Right after I got my ppl I found a club that had what I considered really good terms. Something like $2000 buy in for 172s, guaranteeing 50 hours in a calendar year, and they had dry rates of about $18/hour. Then the following year they completely changed the pricing structure so I opted out. But clubs are best for overnight travel as well, which is something that I do use the planes for and forgot to throw in my OP.

Quick question guys. What’s the difference between equity and non-equity clubs?
 
woodchucker said:
I think so too. Right after I got my ppl I found a club that had what I considered really good terms. Something like $2000 buy in for 172s, guaranteeing 50 hours in a calendar year, and they had dry rates of about $18/hour. Then the following year they completely changed the pricing structure so I opted out. But clubs are best for overnight travel as well, which is something that I do use the planes for and forgot to throw in my OP.

Quick question guys. What’s the difference between equity and non-equity clubs?
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From a business perspective it means ownership. If you buy into equity of something you own part of it.
 
Ravioli said:
Assuming your serious:
Dry means the member flying pays for the fuel. The guidelines indicate where the fuel level is required to be when finished with a mission. Something like "to the tabs on the mains and full on the tips" for PA32-300 or "to the holes" for a C177RG. Any disputes of fuel quantity are between the member finding the condition and the one who flew just previously.

Tach should be equally obvious. Tach End - Tach Start X $ per tach hour = Member charge for the flight.
Click to expand...

Sounds reasonable (yes, I was being serious with the question because I have no experience with dry-tach policy). One downside seems, if you arrive late when the FBO is closed you have to make arrangements to get fuel the next morning before the next person flies. At my club we just return the airplane as is, and its up to the next person to refuel. Trips rarely start when FBOs are closed, but many do end when the FBO is closed.
 
One metric I'd be looking at is the ratio of number of club members to number of airplanes available, and try to understand what the availability would be for the airplanes I'd be interested in flying at the times I'd be interested in flying. For a popular airplane in a club with lots of members, you may wind up not flying because the plane is always booked by others in the club.
 
sarangan said:
Sounds reasonable (yes, I was being serious with the question because I have no experience with dry-tach policy). One downside seems, if you arrive late when the FBO is closed you have to make arrangements to get fuel the next morning before the next person flies. At my club we just return the airplane as is, and its up to the next person to refuel. Trips rarely start when FBOs are closed, but many do end when the FBO is closed.
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The club I was a member of for a year had the requirement to fill after flight completion. I think most places have self-serve so it’s a non issue. If they don’t all you need is a receipt and you can compensate later. On the downside there may be trips where you don’t WANT full tanks for a flight. That’s the real downside.
 
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sarangan said:
At my club we just return the airplane as is, and its up to the next person to refuel. Trips rarely start when FBOs are closed, but many do end when the FBO is closed.
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In the absence of a 24/7 fueling option, it is still the members responsibility to return the plane at the correct fuel level. In the last club I was in (14 members) we all new the 'overfill" amount if we choose to self-fuel at the four cheaper fuel points. Also, if you happen to get to the plane and it is low you call the fuel truck and it goes to the prior guy. Really not an issue.
 
LoLPilot said:
From a business perspective it means ownership. If you buy into equity of something you own part of it.
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Thanks. That’s what I figured but wanted to make sure. Most clubs I think are non-equity? At least all of the ones I have come across. Equity implies buying a share of a plane, and so the initial buy-in ought to be much higher I would think. At one time I came across an opportunity to purchase a share of a well equipped 172 for $7k. I just didn’t have the cash sitting around to make it happen.
 
sarangan said:
Sounds reasonable (yes, I was being serious with the question because I have no experience with dry-tach policy). One downside seems, if you arrive late when the FBO is closed you have to make arrangements to get fuel the next morning before the next person flies. At my club we just return the airplane as is, and its up to the next person to refuel. Trips rarely start when FBOs are closed, but many do end when the FBO is closed.
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Exactly how ours is as well. I never have liked the idea of places that require the renter to return the aircraft with fuel at a certain level.
 
woodchucker said:
On the downside there may be trips where you don’t WANT full tanks for a flight. That’s the real downside.
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You've got that right. Communication is key here. We have had occasional issues where member 1 went out and did his pre-flight and offloaded fuel for his W&B for the next day. Another member came out flew, returned it to customary level.

Now #1 is ticked because he's over fueled. #2 paid for a lot of extra fuel.

It worked out (since they are co-owners) but henceforth we are always careful when non-standard fuel is desired. And the "missing fuel" was in a can in the hangar so that works itself out as well.
 
Ryanb said:
Exactly how ours is as well. I never have liked the idea of places that require the renter to return the aircraft with fuel at a certain level.
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A) we aren't talking renters
B) you'd love it when you can save $1.50 gal by making a fuel stop on the way home.
C) Ever rented an automobile?
 
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