To Waas or not to Waas?

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Mtns2Skies

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Mtns2Skies
That is the question.

So @RDUPilot got me started on getting serious about my panel upgrade that I'm planning on this winter. I'm just beginning my instrument rating now. I've got a 180 that will be flown single-pilot IFR so I doubt I'll be flying in any crazy IFR, just using it to pop through layers and whatnot.

I have an Aera 660 that I love, but of course it's not an IFR GPS. I was thinking I could spend ~2k and get a non-Waas GPS to be able to file /G (and use the Aera for all practical purposes) OR spend 10k+ to get a GTN650.

For someone that probably won't be flying hard IFR, and doesn't have a go-places plane is WAAS really worth it? In 10 years will I be able to get in anywhere just using RNAV and ILS?

If I can save money on the GPS, I'm going to get a sweeeet engine monitor so hoping on that solution. Also thought about ripping out the vacuum system but that's going to be a lot in $$$ because I'll need a new autopilot as well. Anyway, I have a dual vacuum system I wouldn't want to go to waste.
 
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I went with a KLX94. Color IFR GPS, could be had on the cheap (still $$$$ to install). I would have loved to put in something with WAAS, but even for antiquated equipment I'd be looking at at least 7 or 8 grand more. I might have saved a bit on installation, since I had to put in a second comm. I just didn't have that much more money, nor was I comfortable putting it in a Mooney M20c. I'd never recoup it. I thought the KLN94 was a good fit for the Mooney, a WAAS 430 just a bit much. There are M20c's flying around with them, but not many. By the way, I now of one for sale by a POA member.

I think you should have the same thoughts about your aircraft. What is it, what is its most likely mission? What's it worth, and how long do you expect to keep it? If you expect to keep it forever (you are quite young yet) and you have the cash, then by all means go wild. I've seen M20c's like mine with glass panels. The guys had the cash, liked their aircraft and went wild. On the other hand, I've seen aircraft for sale that just had all that done to them that had to be sold away due to life changes. The owners did not recoup their investments.

I think the biggest thing you need to consider is your mission. What are you going to use your airplane for?
 
I don't think you 'save' by installing a non was GPS these days. Eventually Garmin will stop supporting the non-waas navigators. What other panel mounts are there anyway ? The Avidynes arent that common and King has abandoned the GA market alltogether.

If you go with a plain GNS430, get the waas compatible antenna and the waas compatible coax. So down the line upgrading becomes a $1600 affair. Also, a waas GPS can be the source for adsb-out. If you 'save' with a non waas gps you need a solution with integrated GPS.
 
To answer the question, I figure my flying is as good as non-WAAS GPS in terms of accuracy. One reason for WAAS is to drive ADS-B out. If you are not getting that then no need for WAAS. Also, more and more ADS-B out solutions are coming with WAAS. The added cost of WAAS in the ADS-B out is probably similar to the cost of connecting the non-WAAS to your WAAS source.
 
There are a couple inexpensive ADSB boxes that have their own WAAS. My aircraft now sports one, and for the nonce its working. Got me into and out of the DC SFRA,so I can't complain. I wanted WAAS for LPV approaches, but I'm not going to get it. The good news is if things aren't too low I can find a nearby ILS, follow it down and divert to where I want to go scud running. The bad news is ILSs are getting scarce on the ground, and things around here can get pretty low. All that said, most of the local airports have them, so I think I'll be all right.
 
I would delay either GPS solution and put in an engine monitor. An engine monitor can do more to protect your "investment" in the plane, and better inform you of potential issues before they become big problems.

Tim
 
teejayevans said:
Installation is a significant cost and basically the same for either, so why spend money installing inferior technology?
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because superior technology costs 8k more... Though I definitely see your logic.

How much (roughly) are install costs?
 
tspear said:
I would delay either GPS solution and put in an engine monitor. An engine monitor can do more to protect your "investment" in the plane, and better inform you of potential issues before they become big problems.

Tim
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Hmm this may be the best option. Get 2 new(ish) radios (both of mine are more or less junk) and have later plans to put in a 650? That might be best.

Edit: But for the same money as a new radio (which I need anyway) I can have an old IFR GPS (Apollo GX65). Though I don't know the difference in install costs.
 
When the weather at the destination becomes worse than expected, and being able to breakout using LPV minimums means not having to divert to an alternate, what is that worth. Speaking of alternates, when you're WAAS capable, you have a lot more airports to choose as alternates, so you won't have to rely on using airports with ground-based instrument approach procedures.

The kicker to me for WAAS is having advisory vertical guidance on most approaches. Why dive and drive if you don't have to?
 
Mtns2Skies said:
because superior technology costs 8k more... Though I definitely see your logic.

How much (roughly) are install costs?
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I was looking into the cost to put a Garmin 300 into a 172 a couple years ago. I think the avionics dude said it'd be a couple thousand
 
Idk if your gonna keep the plane for a long time it seems like it would be worth putting in a new WAAS GPS. I went through this with the Cherokee (regarding radios, CDIs) and it just didn’t make a lot of sense to spend a significant amount of money on old technology.
 
Dad sold cars, mom sold houses. Rule of thumb was to always think about when you sell it. An old cherokee with 2 older nav/com ils only vs same airplane with gps waas. Which one is going to sell faster?
 
If you're going to install ADS-B out eventually, get a WAAS unit now. The install costs are about the same, and you'll need a position sensor. A stand alone WAAS position sensor is about $1,800. Plus, if you ever decide to install a G5, you'll be able to feed it RS232 data from your WAAS navigator instead of installing yet another antenna. I have a GX50 and am happy with it, but if I were going to start from scratch, I'd install a WAAS unit. Better value over the long run if upgrades are in the cards. Plus support for these older GPS units is getting challenging. I bought an extra GX just to keep on the shelf.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
If you're going to install ADS-B out eventually, get a WAAS unit now.
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Kinda dumb question. I'm signed up on a list to get the uavionix tailbeacon... does that have Waas built into it or no? I assume not?
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Kinda dumb question. I'm signed up on a list to get the uavionix tailbeacon... does that have Waas built into it or no? I assume not?
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It’s all inclusive, but I’m not sure on the supposed shipping date. Probably have more details during Oshkosh.

I’d still have a WAAS unit even if I went with the Uavionix solution. Having options for G5 upgrade, or inflight with approaches if the weather turns unexpectedly would be a good thing to have.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Kinda dumb question. I'm signed up on a list to get the uavionix tailbeacon... does that have Waas built into it or no? I assume not?
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My understanding is it still isn't certified, and they keep pushing back the date. As a veteran of the Navworx thing, with all the scars to show for it, color me skeptical. Other thing to think about is your xponder. If you are going to upgrade, get a solid state ADS-B out xponder like the TRIG , and use the WAAS to feed that. Not much more than the uavionix.
 
I put in a GX60 and installed it myself with my mechanic overseeing. For under 2k Im /G. Sure I cant shoot LPV approaches but that's okay as most places I fly to have an ILS and if Im needing an ILS to get down to 200ft Im typically not going to be flying anyway. So for me im cool rocking 90's tech and it serves me fine. I use foreflight for SA and what not and about to install the trutrak vision which the GX60 will drive. I also have the stratus ESG txp so Im ADS-b out/in, /G and a nice auto pilot for about the same cost as 430waas installed. Im happy but that just me.
 
Well, a 430W is going for around $7k. Only a fool would buy one when a 650 could be had for $2k more. Sure, it's $2k. But look at what you are getting. Not to mention, the GNS days are numbered. The GTN will be supported for a long time going forward. Both installs will be the same.
 
If it was me I would definitely go the WAAS route if I was going to upgrade to /G...
 
Seems like you don’t really need it for your mission. I’d just spend the leftover money on more gas.
 
Low hull value airframes are prime candidates for navigator-only installations imo. I would go for a GPS 400W. Gets the WAAS benefit, and the savings both on the box and the installation labor itself (since no comm+nav related labor is required) are significant, especially when compared to going the GTN 650 route.
 
"For someone that probably won't be flying hard IFR"

I got my instrument rating 8 years ago and actually regretted it afterward. Yes, I said that. I also wondered why no one ever tried to talk me out of it and I swore if I saw someone with my perspective I would speak up. So here goes.

I live in an area where we have a frequent marine layer of clouds. They're a few hundred feet thick and coastal. It might be CAVU for miles around but the marine layer keeps VFR pilots grounded. So I decided to get my IFR ticket to be able to get through this marine layer, not to fly "hard IFR".

On my very first real IFR flight after getting my ticket I came very, very, close to killing myself. That day taught me there is no such thing as being "just good enough to fly easy IFR".

Either you are fully capable, current and proficient for flying hard IFR, or your not. There is no in-between. There is no such thing as "just good enough to climb thru a layer". That is the kind of attitude that nearly got me killed and I'm sure has taken out any number of pilots and their loved ones.

I'm not trying to tell you what you should or shouldn't do. I'm just keeping a promise to myself here to point out an opinion for your consideration.

Yes, I learned a lot by getting my rating but I wish I would have spent the $8000, and the time, going on adventures with my wife.

After my first IFR flight near-disaster I never flew IFR again. I realized that I did not have the time, the money, the commitment or the aircraft to truly remain hard-IFR proficient. Anything less, and I would end up dead and probably take some poor SOB with me.
 
Lndwarrior said:
"For someone that probably won't be flying hard IFR"

I got my instrument rating 8 years ago and actually regretted it afterward. Yes, I said that. I also wondered why no one ever tried to talk me out of it and I swore if I saw someone with my perspective I would speak up. So here goes.

I live in an area where we have a frequent marine layer of clouds. They're a few hundred feet thick and coastal. It might be CAVU for miles around but the marine layer keeps VFR pilots grounded. So I decided to get my IFR ticket to be able to get through this marine layer, not to fly "hard IFR".

On my very first real IFR flight after getting my ticket I came very, very, close to killing myself. That day taught me there is no such thing as being "just good enough to fly easy IFR".

Either you are fully capable, current and proficient for flying hard IFR, or your not. There is no in-between. There is no such thing as "just good enough to climb thru a layer". That is the kind of attitude that nearly got me killed and I'm sure has taken out any number of pilots and their loved ones.

I'm not trying to tell you what you should or shouldn't do. I'm just keeping a promise to myself here to point out an opinion for your consideration.

Yes, I learned a lot by getting my rating but I wish I would have spent the $8000, and the time, going on adventures with my wife.

After my first IFR flight near-disaster I never flew IFR again. I realized that I did not have the time, the money, the commitment or the aircraft to truly remain hard-IFR proficient. Anything less, and I would end up dead and probably take some poor SOB with me.
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Thank you for sharing that.
 
Find a pilot friend, work the hood, get an Ipc every year just cuz. You scared the hell outa yourself, and that is very healthy. It's call respecting the aircraft. Nothing worse, other than a TS than knowing a 300 ft think layer is over the airport and you could be up, but ain't burning off for three weeks.
 
I’d go GNS, and honestly it’s not a huge deal being non WAAS if you’re got looking to shoot hard IFR.

The benefit of WAAS is the tie in’s for ADSB etc, also the compliantly VNAV and LPV VNAV help make a smother approach and can eliminate doing step downs.

There are deals out there too, I’d aim for a 430W, but I’ve almost bought a non Waas 430/530 a few times because people didn’t realize what they had, had the it’s old tech iPhone mindsets and were selling stupid cheap.

Unit74 said:
Well, a 430W is going for around $7k. Only a fool would buy one when a 650 could be had for $2k more. Sure, it's $2k. But look at what you are getting. Not to mention, the GNS days are numbered. The GTN will be supported for a long time going forward. Both installs will be the same.
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There are other reasons some pilots might not want the 650s. Also remember a WAAS 430 shoots all the same approaches as the 650, to the same mins.
 
weilke said:
I don't think you 'save' by installing a non was GPS these days. Eventually Garmin will stop supporting the non-waas navigators. What other panel mounts are there anyway ? The Avidynes arent that common and King has abandoned the GA market alltogether.

If you go with a plain GNS430, get the waas compatible antenna and the waas compatible coax. So down the line upgrading becomes a $1600 affair. Also, a waas GPS can be the source for adsb-out. If you 'save' with a non waas gps you need a solution with integrated GPS.
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I agree you don't really save much paying to install a non-WAAS IFR navigator these days.

Upgrade a 430 for $1600?

I don't think so. A GNS 430 has to go back to Garmin for the upgrade. Current price $4395 (that includes the replacement WAAS antenna). Not that long ago, when I sent my 530 in, that price was $3600. https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/597181

Like most avionics, cheaper to buy the more capable stuff (a used 430W) instead of paying to upgrade. ;)
 
Today and in the foreseeable future, WAAS is the coin of the realm for IFR. WAAS gets you LPV capability that will get you into all sorts of destinations with low minimums. Resale is not a factor for me. It's about how you use the plane. The FAA is moving rapidly toward a GPS centric system. There is little sense in installing a crippled GPS box. Get WAAS and move on. You won't regret installing WAAS, but you might if you don't.

Check out approach plates at some of your destinations and see what I mean. At my home field, for example, if you don't have WAAS, the approaches are useless in actual IFR conditions.
 
murphey said:
Dad sold cars, mom sold houses. Rule of thumb was to always think about when you sell it. An old cherokee with 2 older nav/com ils only vs same airplane with gps waas. Which one is going to sell faster?
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But that's not the same comparison as Austin is considering. It would be more like, an old Cherokee (or 180) with an IFR non-WAAS GPS vs. one that has WAAS. I don't see a future buyer of either of these airplanes being that swayed by the WAAS factor, since they most likely wouldn't be using it for a lot of hard IFR. That said, I was used to flying without WAAS. They only installed it in the Sovereign the last year or two I flew it.
 
chemgeek said:
...

Check out approach plates at some of your destinations and see what I mean. At my home field, for example, if you don't have WAAS, the approaches are useless in actual IFR conditions.
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I’m all for WAAS, but I’m not for misinformation.

64_BD650_B-_DD49-4_DC3-875_E-1_F46_CCE26230.png


This is just one example, non WAAS will get you below the ceiling on most IFR days, and on the few days you would need to drop that extra 200ish feet, many hobby pilots who don’t fly a lot of IFR ain’t going to be comfy flying those few days anyways.
 
First, I’ll agree there’s no such thing as “soft IFR” when the weather changes on you. You’ve got to stay proficient to the capabilities of the ticket or not do it. Sooner or later if you think you have a cakewalk IFR flight and forecast, it’ll go to crap, and you’ll be shooting an approach to minimums.

Especially where you moved to, because you’ll actually have weather. :)

On the WAAS thing we went back and forth for nearly three years deciding. Everything mentioned above, we considered. Old Garmin stuff, old King stuff, etc.

What finally pushed it over the edge for us to go GTN650 and GTX345 was the mess in the transponder marketplace for ADS-B, and finally just realizing that an all Garmin stack would “just work” and even though more expensive, it would be as “future proof” as we could get for a long time.

Adding the Flightstream 510 made it just SWEET to do the constant database updates with Garmin Concierge and also pushed all the ADS-B (and AHRS info from the GTX transponder once we get that firmware right) over to the tablets.

Concierge is in Garmin Pilot on the tablet. Auto downloads the databases needed into the tablet and at engine start you connect to the airplane’s WiFi briefly and the airplane “sucks” the databases it sees it needs out of the iPad.

No pulling SD cards, messing with Windows crap to get USB writers to work, nothing. Just connect and it does it. NavData, SmartTaxi, whatever datasets you buy, updated in less than two minutes from start up. Just launch Garmin Pilot at home and let it grab the downloads before going to the airport. It’ll do it in the background while you’re flight planning.

(The above absolutely kills ForeFlight for me unless I can find a compelling killer app in ForeFlight that GP won’t do for me. If I have to choose, I’ll pay for GP and Concierge before ForeFlight now. It’s THAT nice.)

Losing the database update annoyances was 100% worth the price of the Flightstream 510. I hate doing IT troubleshooting on laptops on my days off of doing it for a living.

Anyway...

We also knew we wanted LPV approaches. GTN.

The necessity of ADS-B In and Out led to GTX.

The Concierge feature of the FlightStream led to that.

And the possibility of future G5 and G500 AP meant GTN also, because the 450/550 can run into not having enough physical ports to configure it with the stuff needed to add the AP and electronic gyros later, something Brian here pointed out in his research. Also I think @aggiemike ‘s club ran into that limitation as well.

We did fudge on the 750 and went 650 and haven’t been disappointed with the smaller screen WITH the Flightstream 510. That turns the tablet into the “big screen” if needed. If no Flightstream, I’d probably wish we’d done a 750.

Can’t say it was cheap. All in, it was a $20 AMU bill including labor to remove stuff and move everything down in the stack and add breakers and hook what little up that our ancient and mostly useless AP needed, and blah blah blah. Having a co-owner to split that bill with was appreciated by both of us.

Heck splitting all the bills is nice. Maybe you need a partner in that lovely airplane! :)

We’re also really well set up to go to G5(s) if a gyro pukes now, and maybe someday the new Garmin AP. That starts to get ridiculous in price but for a 182 makes a gorgeous IFR platform out of it. Still oodles cheaper than buying a 182 with a G1000 in it, too. :)

Anyway, just stuff to think about. I wondered if I would have buyer’s remorse dropping 10 large for my share of it into an older 182 panel, but I can say solidly that my answer now is, no. No remorse. It’s a “damn that works great” setup for everything I’ve tried or wanted to do with it, so far.

Oh, one more thing pushed the LPV desire. FAA policy change to disallow opposite direction approaches even in VMC to the same runway. When they allowed it, KAPA would let you fly the ILS against traffic when the wind was out of the south. No more. The only way to get practice approaches on those days was to fly to FTG or BJC or wherever else an ILS was aligned with the wind.

With LPV, you just go fly the 28 or 17 LPV approaches at KAPA when the wind effectively shuts down the 35R ILS.
 
GRG55 said:
Upgrade a 430 for $1600?

I don't think so. A GNS 430 has to go back to Garmin for the upgrade. Current price $4395 (that includes the replacement WAAS antenna).
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$1600 is if you already have the waas antenna and compliant wiring. BTDT.

To now spend the labor on installing a non-waas antenna and wiring would imnho be a waste of money.
 
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weilke said:
$1600 is if you already have the waas antenna and compliant wiring. BTDT.
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I should have mentioned that a non-insignificant part of our install labor charge was installing the WAAS capable GPS antenna on top of the wing, and all new coax for the transponder antenna. Also removing the DME antenna and coax.

The old coax wouldn’t meet spec for losses, etc... and was installed circa 1992.
 
Brad Z said:
When the weather at the destination becomes worse than expected, and being able to breakout using LPV minimums means not having to divert to an alternate, what is that worth. Speaking of alternates, when you're WAAS capable, you have a lot more airports to choose as alternates, so you won't have to rely on using airports with ground-based instrument approach procedures.
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Flew into Easton,MD twice this past week. Both times the glideslope was oos. Without waas it's alll nonprecision approaches.

The other issue is raim prediction. If the waas unit is good to go it tells you so. No need to check outside sources for every IFR flight.
 
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Thanks for the input everyone! I think I've decided to go with two avionics upgrades. The first will be an EI CGR-30P + a GMA 340/345/PS8000 audio panel (maybe ill make another thread to decide) + the uavionix tailbeacon. I'll muddle along with my crappy radios for the time being.

The next upgrade (Once I've saved up) will be to get a GTN650 and SL30. I think this ultimately is the best plan for my budget to get me a more useable plane ASAP (Not having a built-in intercom and PTT bugs the heck out of me), but also WAAS down the road. This way I'm not double-paying to rip out a new radio I'd have just paid for in a couple years when I inevitably put in the 650.

If I break it up this way it keeps me from compromising on anything, but still will give me the functionality down the road.
 
weilke said:
$1600 is if you already have the waas antenna and compliant wiring. BTDT.

To now spend the labor on installing a non-waas antenna and wiring would imnho be a waste of money.
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No argument with your second sentence.

But help me with the $1600 math. You said:

weilke said:
...If you go with a plain GNS430, get the waas compatible antenna and the waas compatible coax. So down the line upgrading becomes a $1600 affair...
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Even if one has the WAAS antenna and the coax installed as you recommend, one can't possibly get a plain GNS430 upgraded to WAAS for $1600. My point was Garmin alone is going to charge you a lot more than that (the GA 35 antenna they send in the box after a WAAS upgrade is only worth $300 retail).

So if you have BTDT for $1600 please tell us how, as I am certain many of us would like to know how to beat Garmin's increasingly onerous pricing for the upgrade.
 
GRG55 said:
So if you have BTDT for $1600 please tell us how, as I am certain we would all like to know how to beat Garmin's increasingly onerous pricing for the upgrade.
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The 3900 price includes the antenna. Net we paid $1600 for upgrading the box itself + an hour of the IAs time to get the AFM supplement stamped by the FSDO.
 
weilke said:
The 3900 price includes the antenna. Net we paid $1600 for upgrading the box itself + an hour of the IAs time to get the AFM supplement stamped by the FSDO.
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The GA 35 antenna is only worth $310 retail. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/garminga35waasant.php

Garmin's current price to WAAS upgrade a GNS is now $4395.

I still don't understand your math.

But be that as it may, I recommend anybody here wanting to get a GNS box upgraded to WAAS should send it to your Garmin dealer if they can arrange to have it done for $1600.
 
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