Is CFI required to be present during cross-country solo flights?
- Thread starter Jeff Szlauko
- Start date
How did you know what game I play on my work phone? Are you spying on me?
Except you're not working while the student is soloing. They're not receiving any type of instruction from you at all, so there's no reason that you should be paid. If my instructors had expected to be paid while I did my solo stuff, they would've been -1 student.
- All other things being the same, higher quality briefings take place in person, directly before and after the flight, with someone that's focused on the student and not whatever they have going on elsewhere. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves.
- The instructor being on site, and not a 30 minute drive away, can help prevent an unnecessary flight cancellation due to students coming across a small problem they are unable, untrained, or not allowed to handle. (Example: tug breaks and it takes two to push it out; an instructor is there to jump start a cold-soaked airplane that doesn't want to start; instructor is on site to resolve a new maintenance discrepancy that students aren't allowed to fix or placard, etc)
- Once the students left, the instructor is onsite to promptly handle logistical contingencies for any issues that might come up. I definitely gave examples earlier. Find them if you want.
- Once the student has left, an instructor on site and on the clock is much more likely to know where a student should be and when, notice a discrepancy, and respond in an appropriate degree
- Plenty more that I don't feel like reiterating
And, to a greater point, should an employer/client expect a professional flight instructor to make himself available for all of these things for free (whether he/she is at home or at the airport)? Absolutely not.
With that, I'm done replying to duplicates of the same questions and concerns. If someone wants to post something that productively advances the discussion, I'm all ears.
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EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Because I have sudoku on my tablet!
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
You are so far off base it's not even funny. You need to get out of the puppy mill mind set.
dmspilot
Final Approach
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Sometimes I stay at the airport while my student is on a solo XC, sometimes I instruct other students, and sometimes I go home or do other things. If I stay at the airport, I am doing so out of my own free will and would not dream of charging the student.
Why are there so many discrepancies and contingencies happening on your student cross-countries? Are they not actually prepared? Does your school have poor maintenance? I've never had to jumpstart a cold soaked airplane or had any of the other problems you hypothesize might happen.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
The funny thing about all this is that one of my students owns his own airplane, and will now solo from his airport 40nm to my airport. The horror. I also train my students to be able handle all of these problems on their own that the puppy mills don't. And what trainer takes two people to push out? Those 172's are soooooooo heavy!
I was in a location that got pretty cold in the winter. An aircraft pulled out by the rampers at 7am might have trouble starting at 8am.
Aircraft have issues some times, you'll see them more if you're around them more. It's simply a numbers game. I was a full-time instructor, flying 6 days a week, with a full student load.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Starting to sound like UND.
Mtns2Skies
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Its not so much the plane but the terrain. Bumps going in/out of the hangar, pushing up a hill or small frail people all contribute to needing more than one person to move a plane.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Weight Gain 4000
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Abso-freaking-lutely. What are they supposed to do after they're certified? Call their CFI for rescue? No, handle the situation on their own. The CFI's responsibility is to ensure that they've adequately planned the flight. I would expect them to be available via phone in the rare event of a mechanical or other issue, but not acting as the stand-by rescue operation.
First, @OverTQ, thank you for keeping this a civil conversation all the way to page 3.
I would suggest that an instructor with a student on a solo cross country should be aware of it, should make themselves available via cell phone, and should probably remain sober. But, IMO, being available via phone and staying sober aren't things worthy of being paid full rate, when they can do whatever they want otherwise.
I disagree. The fact that the student knows you're there actively monitoring them means that they aren't getting into the "I am the final authority as to the operation of this aircraft" mentality. It's kind of like the people who fly Cirruses into situations that nobody would fly into if they didn't have a chute.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Oh no you di' in't!
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
"UND...Our Policies Are Mandatory for All Pilots Everywhere"
denverpilot
Tied Down
Oh, you’ve run into that guy, too? LOL
I only poked at it because if the guy with all these “rules” for that kind of stuff did work at UND, he should know the attitude it creates is REALLY obvious out here in the real world.
I’m sure all of us who’ve been around a while can list off some oddities we’ve seen in UND grads and instructors, as well as Riddle, and ATP. Some of their ingrained behaviors never change, or change really slowly over a long period of normal life.
Certain things military trained pilots do, too, but those are usually far less annoying.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Where do you think ATITAPA came from?
denverpilot
Tied Down
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Our philosophy was different. A student flying one of our planes was a client of our training program, and it was our prerogative to get them back if they had an issue. It was also our intent to offer as high a level of safety as we could without unreasonably impairing their learning and confidence.
Just to be clear, I'm not asserting any regulatory responsibility to stay at the airport.
Anytime. I'm not in this conversation to seek conflict, but rather to honestly discuss a flight training tradition that I now believe the industry gets wrong more than it realizes. FWIW, there was a time where I vehemently disagreed with the position I hold now. I trained initially at a school where you couldn't pay someone to care where you were. They were all old, crusty instructors that probably would have been happy if the entire fleet got lost in the wilderness. I ended up changing to a different school, and I hated the instructor-on-site policy upon hearing it first. I was vocal about it, too, like you all are. Down the road, I saw it work to the benefit of myself, to other students in my peer group, and then to my own students and the students of my coworkers. I tucked my tail between my legs and came to the realization that it had merit, and my preconceived notions were ill-informed.
I stand by the principle that an instructor should be getting paid during the time they have obligations to their employer. The rate question, however, is one that nobody was bringing up, and I'm glad someone finally did. (After all, $1/hr for the service is a different value proposition than say, $60/hr.)
The way it worked out, students rarely paid full rate for an instructor to sit at the airport or anywhere else. Most of the time, the student would coordinate in advance with an instructor that was going to be in the office anyways, and that instructor would typically not charge them for flight following because they were already being paid to be on site. They might bill them for any time spent together, but while the student was out they'd go back to whatever they were doing at the office (record keeping, ground school, asst. chief duties, teaching in the ATD, etc.) Other times, when the instructor did come in just to monitor solo flights, the students would work together to schedule solo flights simultaneously and split up the instructors time, similar to how students often share ground instruction.
In the uncommon example that a student wanted to do a solo flight during some inconvenient time when nobody else was going to be around, forcing an instructor to come in just to monitor that one student, he might get billed full rate. That was atypical, though.
It's funny to me that half of the people arguing against the policy do so by claiming that there's absolutely nothing an instructor can do for a student who has left on a solo flight. And then half of the people argue that the same instructor is so effective in supervision that it steals the PICness that the student experiences. I think when employed thoughtfully, the policy lies in between those two extremes. An instructor at the base does provide value to the student, but is not so involved in the flight that it detracts from the training outcomes. Like I talked about previously, unless there is a critical situation, the instructor is really just acting like a company flight follower. What's wrong with someone simply knowing where their airplane is at?
I assure you, there's no shortage of professional captains out there that proudly consider themselves the HMFIC, but still send a departure notice and arrival notice to company headquarters so the company knows where their airplanes are.
I think that's a very reasonable position. I also think if you'd had the experience I had, you may see more value in the instructor sticking around the airport.
Truthfully, I couldn't care less if the student ever pays the school for the oversight. I care that an instructor is on site during student pilot solo, because I think it's a good policy, and I care that professional pilots/instructors not be forced to donate their time. It's irrelevant to me whether or not the student gets invoiced for it. I'm just as happy to see the school eat the cost, as it does provide some benefit to the school as well.
If I had my own flight school, I would require some instructor to be on site when a student pilot is gone with an aircraft. I probably wouldn't charge full rate to the students, though. I've thought about it before, and I'd probably just build it in to the solo rate for the aircraft. I'd build in a fraction of the instructor pay rate, knowing that quite often one instructor will be monitoring multiple solo flights, or will already being getting paid to be productive for me in some other way. It'd really be a win for everyone. Solo student gets the attention he deserves--at a very small price increase, the school maintains a high degree of accountability of student pilots, and no instructor works for free.
I get it. Oversight might sound 'fine' when the instructor is away from the airport, but in practice, it's certainly done 'better' with the instructor at the airport. We can agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that.
I only poked at it because if the guy with all these “rules” for that kind of stuff did work at UND, he should know the attitude it creates is REALLY obvious out here in the real world.
I realize that this thread might give you the impression that I'm a product of some tribal-natured flight school that indoctrinates it's students to believe the school's way is the holy way. That's not the case. I try very hard to be open-minded towards trends and new ideas in aviation, especially in training, to not let the tradition-bias rule.
You might find that I disagree with the way some schools like UND choose to teach and operate. This thread, however, happened to touch on a topic that I think most of the industry has gotten wrong, where the traditional way isn't the best way. Just like the importance of human factors, just like crew resource management, just like the emphasis on aeronautical decision making, and just like the shift away from expecting a pilot to know how to build the airplane in favor of focusing on what's actionable from the cockpit. It's no where near as significant as those other examples (we're talking about a 10 hour span in the course of a pilot's flying career) but it's similar in that there is lot of push back by institutional nostalgia.
Not a UND guy, by the way You probably haven't heard of the flight school I trained/taught at that had this policy.[/QUOTE]
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jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
For the first 3 solos I was at the airport listening on the radios for my students. For their solo cross countries I just gave them the endorsement and sent them on their way.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Once I solo them, "I say have fun, you're also good to fly to this airport and this airport and let me know when you want your next lesson." First dual cross country, we sit down at a table and do all the planning together and go fly it. Then for the first solo cross country, we sit down at a table (usually my dining room table) and go over all their planning and contingencies they've done. I sign their log book, and say call or text with any issues or when you get done, whichever comes first. No baby sitting, no watching over their shoulder. I've given them the authority to be PIC, so go be PIC, not PIC-lite.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
I just don't see what the difference is. The instructor is receiving a text message from the student with their whereabouts. What on earth makes the instructor better at doing that simply by virtue of being at the airport?
Largely human nature. You, I, and any other normal human are going to be more attentive, more likely to notice an overdue aircraft, and more likely to remember to keep the phone in proximity/charged/off of silent, if that's what we're being paid to do.
But also, we're present to answer if someone calls the school phone (three real-life examples: the student pilot, ATC, an FBO to tell us the student left the fuel cap there). We're also in a better position (and probably slightly more willing) to leverage the school's resources at the base than if we're 30 minutes away, with a beer, watching the game.
I could give a hundred examples, but I'm sure you can extrapolate.
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EdFred
Taxi to Parking
False assumptions lead to false conclusions.
If I am expected or required to be at a airport while the student is solo. I am working, therefore I will be paid. So if the student calls while he is at another airport for advice, should I charge him for that time of the phone call, being that I am working.
If at your job your boss told you that you had to sit at work for an extra 2 hours.
Would you not expect to be paid?
denverpilot
Tied Down
If you’re required to be there, they better not be paying you on a 1099.
(Kicking the can of worms down the road...)
If you’re required to be there, they better not be paying you on a 1099.
(Kicking the can of worms down the road...)
Haha, probably about that time idnit.
Brad Z
Final Approach
[/QUOTE]
Okay, what you're describing sounds like a concierge style flight training program. That's cool, pay a premium, get a premium product.
I may be late to this thread, but the reasons OverTQ cited for having the instructor on site at the FBO are more for convenience and accountability than safety. If the instructor wanted to be most useful, he or she would inspect the client's flight planning, pre brief, endorse, and then hop in the car and meet the student at the destination. Physically being at the FBO provides no additional benefit over being at the local Starbucks once the student has left the field. As a business, perhaps there's accountability so that when the chief instructor is looking for the student's instructor he or she knows where to find him.
Most flight schools have someone working "the desk" who the student can call. That's how it's worked for generations. If there's a maintenance issue, they can put the student in contact with the guys in the shop. If the instructor is not immediately available, the student can talk to the chief instructor, or another instructor on staff.
Most busy flight schools are too busy to take an instructor off line for three hours or so to "monitor" a solo cross country. There are other students out there who need time with instructors.
With ADS-B, monitoring is trivial. If the instructor wants to see where the student is, they can just look on their iPhone.
I get it, you become a product of your environment. You flew/trained at this school so you see/like their ways. Just know it's not the norm and IMO it is not in the best interest of the student(s) nor is it in the best interest of safety. I doubt there is a noticeable statistical difference in student solo rates for a CFI at the airport vs at home.
BTW most of my students choose to do their solo XCs in the morning and are back by 12 or 1. I wouldn't think most CFIs would be at the bar drinking that time of day? That's an evening activity
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
I noticed very early on that all the CFIs think that all the other CFIs are wrong. (OK, I exaggerate, but there's a grain of truth in it, which is nowhere more apparent than on aviation message boards!)
dell30rb
Final Approach
Also how quick everyone is to tell a forum member to get a new CFI.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yea the first 3 solos per my Flight school had to be “supervised,” aka me staying at the airport.
how do you get through the rest of the day?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I'm blacked out by then.
There is a cultural divide here, but it is not a 141 vs 61 thing. Maybe it's a corporate world vs educational world thing. There are some jobs where you clock in, and clock out, and are paid according to billable hours. But there are jobs that aren't like that at all; education is one example. Any K-12 teacher or university professor (like me) will tell you that it's common and expected to be doing stuff past class clock-out time for your students... many of us work during the summer when we're off contract and being paid nothing.
At my 141 school, instructors were paid according to Hobbs time. They did not "clock" the 30 minutes or whatever of time on the ground talking about stuff before and after the flight; I got that for free. (Unless it was a dedicated "ground session".). My current instructor does the same thing, under 61. Whether or not this is "fair", I suppose depends on your culture, but we should at least acknowledge that flight instructors commonly operate under a more educational style than corporate style.
Right?
I for one am totally comfortable with this, and if I were a CFI, wouldn't dream of charging a student for merely "having my phone on" while she's out on solo, wherever I might be located. Just like if I needed to proctor a test in the evening or something; I wouldn't claim overtime from the university, I'd just consider it part of what's sometimes necessary for what I do. I can use my brain for other things during that time. That's the educational culture I'm used to.
--Not a CFI yet
At my 141 school, instructors were paid according to Hobbs time. They did not "clock" the 30 minutes or whatever of time on the ground talking about stuff before and after the flight; I got that for free. (Unless it was a dedicated "ground session".). My current instructor does the same thing, under 61. Whether or not this is "fair", I suppose depends on your culture, but we should at least acknowledge that flight instructors commonly operate under a more educational style than corporate style.
Right?
I for one am totally comfortable with this, and if I were a CFI, wouldn't dream of charging a student for merely "having my phone on" while she's out on solo, wherever I might be located. Just like if I needed to proctor a test in the evening or something; I wouldn't claim overtime from the university, I'd just consider it part of what's sometimes necessary for what I do. I can use my brain for other things during that time. That's the educational culture I'm used to.
--Not a CFI yet
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Brad Z
Final Approach
I'd like to think my phone is on to answer a question anytime, not just during a lesson or when a student is on a solo flight. And unlike a lawyer I'm not going to start the meter once I answer the call or text.
Part of being good instructors is building student confidence. It's hard to convince a student you're confident in them while at the same strapped to your cubical chair tracking their every movement.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
Disagreeing with me doesn't count; I'm not a CFI!I couldn't disagree more.