Which is safer motorcycles or GA?

[brcase]

Back when I started flight instructing I spent a couple days looking at all the numbers I could find so I could develop a lesson on the risk of flying.

There are of course many ways to look at.
Pure numbers, driving is much more dangerous and kills many more people than flying, but then many more people drive and for many more hours per year.
Then the question is do you count fatals, injuries or accidents?
Fatal accidents are the easiest to track because other accidents and injuries often go unreported.. So, Looking at fatal accidents on an hour per hour basis...

1.Airlines are much safer than driving
2.GA about the same as motorcycles
3.Driving is safer than GA.

If you eliminate low flying (including crop dusting) and flying in bad weather, GA is about the same as driving, so you can choose how dangerous GA is (for you, it won't change the pure numbers) by when and how you fly.

After riding motorcycles for a few years I am of the opinion that most motorcycle accidents are the fault of the rider, many are even single vehicle accidents. As a result I have come to the conclusion that motorcycle riders can do much to reduce their risk, just like pilots can reduce the risks they take.

And like flying, motorcyclist can do a lot to prevent accidents that wouldn't be the fault of the motorcyclist. I like the saying a flight instructor I know uses, "you don't want to be dead right", aka you can be right but still dead. So account for other peoples mistakes in your flying.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[azpilot]

I didn't crash or even lay my down my bike in over 25,000 miles of street and track use. I'd say the plane or bike is as safe as the operator. Sure there are cagers but you mitigate that risk the same way you do flying.

I don't agree with that statement. There are just so many more risks on a motorcycle that are out of your control. You are surrounded by people that don't see you. Sure, you can drive defensively, and that will help tremendously, but it won't always work.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/25/dead-phoenix-motorcycle-crash.html

 

[BigBadLou]

No. Not all accidents.

The sad part is that with all the texting, face-painting, singing, drinking, eating and backseat-kid-slapping retards on the roads, MANY of these are no accidents but purely collisions-waiting-to-happen.

I have been involved in several collisions in my life and none of them were accidents. Pure dumb sh*t pulled by retarded "operators" (if you will) who were simply either not smart enough or plainly deficient in ADM (Automobile Decision Making).

I will take my chances in an airplane over a motorcycle. I have never felt endangered by a minivan-driving v*gina while in my airplane. Don't ask how many times I feared for my life on a bike. Why, do you think, I stopped riding?

 

[RalphInCA]

Purely subjective, but when I ride my motorcycle to the airport to fly, I feel like the most dangerous part of my day is over when I park the motorcycle.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Everyone I know who rides a motorcycle for very long has crashed. I know I did.

 

[RalphInCA]

Everyone I know who rides a motorcycle for very long has crashed. I know I did.

I have not, and I've been riding for a long time and don't shy away from challenging and long distance rides. Crashing is NOT inevitable.

 

[Kritchlow]

I think many people's hearts are talking, not their brain.

 

[fiveoboy01]

I have not, and I've been riding for a long time and don't shy away from challenging and long distance rides. Crashing is NOT inevitable.

I hate it when people say that.

"There are those who have gone down, and those who will" is bull****.

 

[DeeG]

How many motorcyclists have you seen texting?

Just got back from 5 weeks in Thailand, 3 of which were spent riding around the Chiang Mai/Chiang Rai.

I saw many. Most of them were at stop lights, but there were plenty that were in motion either on the phone or texting.

 

[DeeG]

Everyone I know who rides a motorcycle for very long has crashed. I know I did.

That's the same BS argument that states if you fly a retract, you'll eventually land gear up.

 

[Bob Noel]

Everyone I know who rides a motorcycle for very long has crashed. I know I did.

and yet, so many people survive the crash.

How many people do you personally know that have survived an aircraft crash vs died as a result?

I know one who survived the forced landing when the prop departed the aircraft and one who died as a result of a poor approach to landing leading to a departure stall on go-around.

 

[denverpilot]

and yet, so many people survive the crash.

How many people do you personally know that have survived an aircraft crash vs died as a result?

I know one who survived the forced landing when the prop departed the aircraft and one who died as a result of a poor approach to landing leading to a departure stall on go-around.

Numerous forced / precutionary landings, two night engine outs with two people on board for one and one for the other, and four people who survived a mid-air.

Your point?

 

[Bob Noel]

Numerous forced / precutionary landings, two night engine outs with two people on board for one and one for the other, and four people who survived a mid-air.

Your point?

<sigh>

It is my belief that a far higher percentage of motorcycle crashes are survivable than aircraft crashes.

 

[denverpilot]

<sigh>

It is my belief that a far higher percentage of motorcycle crashes are survivable than aircraft crashes.

It may be accurate. He asked the question so I answered. Few in the thread are really looking at real data, it's mostly "feelings".

 

[coloradobluesky]

The most common airplane incident is hangar rash. The most common serious one is running off the runway. I bent my floats water taxiing over a submerged rock. I survived that. Sure lots of airplane accidents are survivable. Off field landings are frequently survivable. Lots of other examples.

 

[StevieTimes]

I had a good motorcycle crash yesterday!

Pinned wide open, just about top of top gear, approaching a 90-degree corner... throw it in, and GONE. No slide that I can catch, no warning... just suddenly I'm on my back, sliding, watching my bike sliding/spinning in front of me.

No time to even wonder how that happened; we're fast approaching a plowed wall of snow. The motorcycle is making a horrendous noise, the sound of metal and plastic loudly scraping fills everything, replacing the sound of a pinned engine that filled my senses just moments ago.

I see the bike hit, BOOM, snow goes flying! Unfortunately, it turned itself around, and now the front tire is in the air, spinning, loaded with metal studs, pointing right towards me.

Not much time to think, all this is happening very quickly. I aim my legs slightly left, trying to hit the brunt of the motorcycle, hoping to avoid the spinning chainsaw of studs. I know hitting the bike with both feet is going to hurt the bike, but even in the split-second I have to consider it, I don't care, trash the stupid thing, I want to walk away from this (if possible).

BOOM, not sure quite what happened in the impact, but I managed to avoid the spinning tire of doom. Plastic dangling from the bike. I pop up instantly, making sure there is nobody following me into this wall. My buddy was right behind me, and is the first to come up to me, I give him the thumbs up, saying "I'm fine". He says "THAT was scary!" I'm smiling like "I KNOW! That was totally freaky dude."

I check it out, seems basically OK. I get it fired, and slowly ride away, holding the plastic on with one hand. This thing does not sound right. Half a lap in, it clears its throat, and sounds normal again.

Talking to my buddy... I said "man that thing sounded just plain 'wrong' for half a lap after I got up." He says "Yah, your exhaust pipe was packed with snow, I was surprised it ran!"

So I guess neither here nor there for this topic... but man it was a fun crash. It was scary, very "roadracing-like", where it was just suddenly gone, and I was sliding probably 35+mph. It was just an XR100, so the consequences weren't dire.

I got the plastic back on, and got another session in before we had to go.

I guess this is neither here nor there, just fun... but I can tell you, from my non-scientific observations... if you race or try to ride dirt bikes quickly, your odds of crashing go up.

WISH I had that one on goPro!

 

[John Zurich]

Comments suggest motorcycles have little control over other vehicles and how they endanger bikes. I fly and ride but haven't flown for years. I will state that there is an unending source of safety tools for motorcyclists that allow the biker to have a great deal of control over his/her safety. I often compare it to flying in that an inappropriate action or missed procedure can create catastrophe.

The primary difference is that pilots are and must be trained to the extent they are. Bikers? Minor requirements in most States. It is up to the biker to seek out safe riding practices including avoidance of collision with cars where the driver is creating danger. I believe many learn to ride upright and never seek additional training or safety information.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Comments suggest motorcycles have little control over other vehicles and how they endanger bikes. I fly and ride but haven't flown for years. I will state that there is an unending source of safety tools for motorcyclists that allow the biker to have a great deal of control over his/her safety. I often compare it to flying in that an inappropriate action or missed procedure can create catastrophe.

You are right, but even well trained in safety and evasive maneuvers, the unanticipated actions of other drivers is still the biggest threat to bikers. The pilot continues to be his or her own biggest threat.

 

[Rockymountain]

Depends on so many variables. An experienced prudent pilot that doesn't do the reckless stuff, flies a well maintained plane in conditions that he/she and the plane are capable and certified for, will be on par with driving. Now driving motorcycles and cars are subject to the same effects. So what part of the population do you fit in? You can drive a car or motorcycle like a moron as well. I have never been in a plane accident, but have been hit a few times in cars. I have around 1/2 million miles in both modes of transportation.

In my car accidents, I was twice stopped at a stop light and once was hit broadside at a blind intersection when a drunk undocumented driver blew a red light. The police let him walk. Have to love sanctuary states. :-( We were lucky to be able to walk as well. Thank you Subaru. Fly safely. Obey the FAR/AIM and the POH. Ensure that your plane is well maintained. Practice and fly regularly. If your plane is a single piston, learn how to glide the thing, and should you lose the engine fly it all the way until it stops> Follow those rules and you will almost definitely live your whole flying career unscathed.

 

[steingar]

Everyone I know who rides a motorcycle for very long has crashed. I know I did.

It took 25 years for me to crash, and that was a low speed skid on a wet road because I had to avoid a pedestrian. Thankfully that bike it gone, it was a pig. I've been in two crashes of GA aircraft.

 

[LoneAspen]

I would love to learn to ride a motorcycle, and ride it around the summer here in Colorado. But I've known too many people who were very alert expert riders who still got seriously injured (one almost died) riding bikes because of mistakes stupid drivers made.

The one guy I know who almost died got hit by a driver, thrown off the bike (like 30 feet or some ridiculous distance), was in a coma, multiple surgeries, and is now walking around with several pounds of plates, pins, and screws in him for the rest of his life.

I put faith in the training, skill, and alertness of other pilots out there, so the risk of another pilot causing me harm is acceptably low.

However, I put ZERO faith in the skill level of other drivers, and therefore would never ride a bike. That is an unacceptable level of risk to me.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I've told this story before on here, but this question keeps coming up. When my best friend Jeff and I were 18, we both bought new motorcycles. He still lived at home. We were in his driveway admiring the hardware and thinking very highly of ourselves, when his dad came outside. This guy was old-school Navy, with the anchor tattoo on his forearm and a voice dripping with whiskey and cigarettes. He growled at us: "You guys gonna ride these things, you keep one simple thing in mind all the time, every time you get on: Imagine that every car you can see is being driven by your girlfriend's dad."

Nuff said. Bikers have more control over the intersection of their route and a car's route than these threads give them credit for. You can crack the throttle and be a block away in 2 seconds. You can swerve and dodge and far outmaneuver your opponent. You can stop on a dime. Been riding 41 years now. One time 39 years ago I forgot Jeff's dad's admonition and had to kiss the pavement due to an inattentive driver. But hey, I call that my fault too.

Risk management is NOT the same as risk avoidance. It requires recognizing the start of a potential accident chain very early on. Constant attention and constant diligence. Sounds a lot like flying, doesn't it? Truth be told, I feel safer on a bike than I do in a piston single, primarily because I've lived in thunderstorm territory the vast majority of the 30+ years I've been flying.

 

[slacktide]

I voted "about the same", based on an hour for hour statistical comparison. However, personal anecdote time, I primarily rode for commuting for several years, was in one accident where I was rear-ended by a drunk at a stoplight. Amazingly no injuries, bike was totalled. My wife also rode for commuting, turned left in front of a guy and got T-boned, major lower leg and foot injuries. Now I'm commuting by plane, have never so much as put a hangar rash ding on an airplane in 15 years / 1000 hrs. Knock on aluminum.

 

[John Zurich]

First 150 I ever flew was soon seen on a trailer at the FBO with no wings. Someone crashed it. Pilot survived but his passenger did not. Cause? Departure stall following takeoff after a couple of drinks. The primary reasons for motorcycle fatalities include lack of a helmet, alcohol and speed. Sport bikes are 4 times more likely to encounter a fatal accident.

I think training, planning and a strong focus on safety will reduce your chances of being killed on two wheel or on two wings.

Really appreciate the replies since my first post this morning.

 

[Brad Smith]

I can fill up a sheet of notebook paper with the names of close friends and acquaintances that I've known that have died in light airplane accidents. True, they all died doing something dumb in the cockpit, but none of us is perfect and we're liable to do the same stupid mistake no matter how we like to display ourselves on this forum. We're human.

As far as motorcycles go, I've been riding since the mid 1970's and ride every day that the weather permits. No accidents except for one incident where my bike fell on me and broke the smallest bone in my foot, the sesamoid bone. My current ride is a 2014 Harley that now has almost 35,000 miles on it, so I am out there. I've only know a few people killed on bikes since I started riding and none of them were close friends.

I feel safer on a motorcycle in traffic than in a single-engine GA aircraft when I'm flying over forested mountains with NOWHERE to put it down in the event of a mechanical failure. Mid-airs freak me out also as I've had a couple close calls (SoCal area) that I pray I never experience again. Having said that I believe that the risks can be minimized in both sports, but never eliminated. We are dreaming if we think either activity is totally safe. As pilots and riders we have the mindset that we can beat the odds if we do our part. Most of the time. I think we choose to ride and fly because we put stock in the line from movie Braveheart, "All men die, not all men really live."

 

[John Zurich]

In Florida, the activity that encounters more fatalities than motorcycle riding or private plane flying is walking. If you are a pedestrian in Florida, get on a bike or in a plane, quickly.

 

[steingar]

I've walked 20 miles this week, I walked 30 last week. Of course, my municipality has lots of sidewalks and alleyways.

 

[jaymark6655]

Interesting that this thread kind of came back to life. When I started it there had been a couple post that I had seen saying motorcycle was safer or equal to GA and that GA being safer than driving was a myth. To me the motorcycle seems more dangerous. I ride, have for five years now. I don't do anything stupid while riding, just commute to and from work or airport at or just below the speed limit. Highway isn't too bad, but in town I have lost track of how many people have tried to pull out in front of me, ran a stop sign or red light across my path, or have flown past me going the wrong way on an otherwise empty one way road. Usually I stay out of blind spots so I haven't had anybody try to merge into me. My one accident, wild life. I was going 30 saw the squirrel, moved into the opposite lane to give squirrel a wide berth, as I approached it ran off the right side of the road into some tall grass. I stayed in the other lane just because they are unpredictable and there was no traffic, planned to move back into my lane after passing spot were rodent was last seen. BTW it was a fox squirrel so it was about house cat size. Anyway as I am passing even to spot it was last seen, I see a brown flash come flying into the rode just out of the corner of my visor. Somehow that thing covered near 24 feet and made it into the front tire, flipping the bike. I slide across the pavement face first, likely I always wear a full face helmet. I laid in the road for bit, wasn't hurt, but thinking about what my fairly new bike must look like made me want to die and I didn't want to get up and see it. That is what made me curious, which is safer. Both have some sort of risk, but I do feel safer fly compared to driving or riding even after almost having an engine out at low altitude during a practice emergency landing over a small, freshly plowed field.

 

[John Zurich]

Interesting that this thread kind of came back to life. When I started it there had been a couple post that I had seen saying motorcycle was safer or equal to GA and that GA being safer than driving was a myth. To me the motorcycle seems more dangerous. I ride, have for five years now. I don't do anything stupid while riding, just commute to and from work or airport at or just below the speed limit. Highway isn't too bad, but in town I have lost track of how many people have tried to pull out in front of me, ran a stop sign or red light across my path, or have flown past me going the wrong way on an otherwise empty one way road. Usually I stay out of blind spots so I haven't had anybody try to merge into me. My one accident, wild life. I was going 30 saw the squirrel, moved into the opposite lane to give squirrel a wide berth, as I approached it ran off the right side of the road into some tall grass. I stayed in the other lane just because they are unpredictable and there was no traffic, planned to move back into my lane after passing spot were rodent was last seen. BTW it was a fox squirrel so it was about house cat size. Anyway as I am passing even to spot it was last seen, I see a brown flash come flying into the rode just out of the corner of my visor. Somehow that thing covered near 24 feet and made it into the front tire, flipping the bike. I slide across the pavement face first, likely I always wear a full face helmet. I laid in the road for bit, wasn't hurt, but thinking about what my fairly new bike must look like made me want to die and I didn't want to get up and see it. That is what made me curious, which is safer. Both have some sort of risk, but I do feel safer fly compared to driving or riding even after almost having an engine out at low altitude during a practice emergency landing over a small, freshly plowed field.

How did hitting the squirrel cause the bike to flip? I picture a "Mighty Mouse" type squirrel stopping the bike in a microsecond and the bike going tail up and over. Did it simply cause the bike to lose stability? Did you lock the front wheel? Did you lose traction on squirrel guts?

 

[jaymark6655]

How did hitting the squirrel cause the bike to flip? I picture a "Mighty Mouse" type squirrel stopping the bike in a microsecond and the bike going tail up and over. Did it simply cause the bike to lose stability? Did you lock the front wheel? Did you lose traction on squirrel guts?

Flip is a bit much, it threw me over the front enough the I landed face first, but the bike fell on its side when it went down. I never touched the brake. Only thing I was thinking was don't stick my hands out and forward roll when I hit. Guess there was enough of a sudden stoppage of that front wheel though when the animal went between it and the fork. Not sure if a slight turn in the road and sand on the pavement helped, but I blame that suicidal animal. Pretty crazy, never entered my mind hitting a squirrel would cause something like that to happen. Don't know about motorcycles, probably because riders wouldn't admit to it, but on bicycles squirrels kill riders when they are hit. My buddies told me that I needed to change to a deer or something when telling the story because it would be more believable and more manly or something.

 

[TipTanks]

I have ridden right through a rabbit with hardly a bump... Sounds like a bit of bad luck to be bucked off the bike by a squirrel. When in doubt, throttle out. Lighten up the front end, and power right through the little critter. Has worked for me.

 

[Lowflynjack]

This comes up every few years. The stats will show that GA is way more dangerous than riding a motorcycle if you break it down by hour. Most pilots won't accept this though!

 

[TipTanks]

It is interesting, I do both. I feel like it all depends on the situation you are undertaking each activity as well. Whats the weather like (For both), whats the traffic conditions like (for both, although more so motorcycle), what risk mitigation are you using... and on and on it goes. Do you want to sit on your couch and waste away, or enjoy (in my opinion) some of the greatest ways to experience this earth? Your choice. Fly Safe, Ride Safe, and enjoy.

 

[Tantalum]

I keep seeing that GA is just as fatal as riding a motorcycle.

Other than both of them being a conveyance, they're really not comparable. I think the reason people use "driving" as a safety litmus test is because nearly everyone drives, and nearly everyone understands that driving is dangerous, with 33,000 fatalities in 2010

The wildcards with driving and motorcycles are:
-other drivers (including drunk drivers)
-personal distractions
-fatigue
^if you took all the other cars off the road and took everyone's phones away then driving would accidents would all but vanish. Also.. there is virtually no training or standardization with driving. You get your learner's permit, pick up your parents' bad habit, and take your road test. It's a total joke.

In aviation, you don't really have other drivers (okay, you do, but midairs are way down the list of accidents) and you have fewer personal distractions from texting, etc. Fatigue is still a factor, but I'll get to that later. Most of accidents in GA just come down to poor judgment.. this list varies slightly depending on where you look, but are generally held to be true.. my source is the FAA fact sheet
-loss of control
-controlled flight into terrain
-powerplant failure
-fuel related
-unknown
-non powerplant but other component failure
-VFR into IMC
-mid airs
-low altitude ops

^I would put good money that outside of powerplant and component failures all of these are just the result of the pilot him/herself making poor judgement.. of which I include fatigue. If you slept 2 hrs the night before and feel like crap maybe you shouldn't be launching out into hard IMC! IMSAF sounds a little "beginner" but it's a great rule of thumb and I use it

**SO, safety really comes down to the pilot.. flying is as safe or as dangerous as you make it. Whereas in driving you could get rear ended standing still at a red light. My brother wrecked his Ducatti in Florida when someone ran the read. (he was slowing down, light turned green, so he started back up, and got nailed). He was okay, but ended up with hardware in both wrists and lost the bike (Monster 750)

I get in the car with most people (there was a guy I used to work with I drove with once and said never again). But I am more selective with who I fly with. And hours tend to be agnostic. Some of the lousiest people I've flown with had hundreds of hours, and some of the best pilots were in the <300 category.. many in the 100 hr range

 

[asicer]

Interesting that this thread kind of came back to life.

In case anyone is still interested in statistics (vs anecdotal evidence vs gut feel), the latest numbers I have are from 2016 as follows:
25.8/100mil mile motorcycle fatals vs 7.44 GA.
11.63/1mil hours motorcycle fatals vs 11.2 GA

This using the same methods as the OP.

 

[Palmpilot]

I consider per-mile rates applicable when there's someplace you want to get to and you're considering which mode of transportation to use. If you just have a certain amount of time to spend riding or flying as a hobby, then per-hour rates would be appropriate.

 

[EdFred]

I haven't had three airplanes make eye contact with me, and then pull out in front of me anyway all in one day. I'll take GA over motorcycles, and I've been riding since I was 10.

 

[LoLPilot]

I ride, and I rode before I started taking flying lessons. I've always seen them as about the same. I read an article somewhere where it translated the "million hours flown" into "miles flown." They used a bit closer comparison, though, I think. It was like 105 mph for GA flight (remember the guys flying Cubs, Champs, etc) and more like 65 mph on a motorcycle as average. Again remember the guys who "commute savagely," as a buddy of mine who sells them would say.

 

[asicer]

In case anyone is still interested in statistics (vs anecdotal evidence vs gut feel), the latest numbers I have are from 2016 as follows:
25.8/100mil mile motorcycle fatals vs 7.44 GA.
11.63/1mil hours motorcycle fatals vs 11.2 GA

This using the same methods as the OP.

Silly me. I forgot to cite my sources.
Motorcycle: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812353

GA: https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/air-safety-institute/accident-analysis/joseph-t-nall-report

I read an article somewhere where it translated the "million hours flown" into "miles flown."

Why read about it when you can do the math yourself?

 

[LoLPilot]

Silly me. I forgot to cite my sources.
Motorcycle: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812353

GA: https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/air-safety-institute/accident-analysis/joseph-t-nall-report



Why read about it when you can do the math yourself?

I used to work in a transportation research center doing statistical analysis of transportation safety. It was part of the background research I was doing for a project regarding motorcycle safety and how legislation affects it.