How many hours do I have?

Tarheelpilot said:
There is nothing wrong with how you log. There is nothing wrong with logging Hobbs time. Both are acceptable and the way you do it is not morally superior nor any more accurate than using Hobbs time. It’s just how you do it.
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I'm just interested in where people have a cut-off of it being okay to just sit there and idle versus being ridiculous.
 
EdFred said:
I'm just interested in where people have a cut-off of it being okay to just sit there and idle versus being ridiculous.
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I think you are being verbose. Honestly I don’t see a legitimate question in your posts. You’re extreme example of logging 24 hours with a plane idling is not even a little bit like someone logging Hobbs time vs tach. But whatever, keep searching for whatever it is you claim to be looking for...
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I think you are being verbose. Honestly I don’t see a legitimate question in your posts. You’re extreme example of logging 24 hours with a plane idling is not even a little bit like someone logging Hobbs time vs tach. But whatever, keep searching for whatever it is you claim to be looking for...
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I am simply responding to the people that say all time is logged after the engine starts if they plan to go fly. So my question is if it's every single minute where is the cut off of just sitting there being not cool verses yeah that's okay. And nobody wants to answer that question. Has nothing to do with Hobbes versus tachometer.
 
Half Fast said:
I see your point, but as I said I log PIC time. That’s greater than flight time. Ground operation also requires a PIC.
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As Ed noted, ground ops doesn’t require a PIC at all. Non-certificated people can taxi airplanes around all day.

In the air carrier world, the mechanics have a special training certificate for ground handling of airliners.

Where the cutoff is between their sizes of aircraft and spam cans is, I have no idea. No GA mechanic I’ve ever met had a special taxi certificate. But they taxi aircraft all the time.

Want an even weirder idea? My insurance, and I bet no one’s here, covers your mechanic taxiing the airplane to the maintenance hangar.

If you can find it in your policy, I can’t find it in ours. :)

No carve out for it at all. Mechanic taxiing my airplane into a ten million dollar jet, he better hope he has good professional liability insurance, because my insurer could tell him to go pound sand.

And remember kids, the correct answer to the question, “Did you authorize your mechanic to taxi the aircraft?” is, “I authorized him to move it. I did not specify how.” :)
 
EdFred said:
I am simply responding to the people that say all time is logged after the engine starts if they plan to go fly. So my question is if it's every single minute where is the cut off of just sitting there being not cool verses yeah that's okay. And nobody wants to answer that question.
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I answered it. Walks like a duck... same criteria FAA lawyer would apply.
 
EdFred said:
I am simply responding to the people that say all time is logged after the engine starts if they plan to go fly. So my question is if it's every single minute where is the cut off of just sitting there being not cool verses yeah that's okay. And nobody wants to answer that question. Has nothing to do with Hobbes versus tachometer.
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It’s like porn. You’ll know it when you see it. Besides that the FAA has defined it for us. It doesn’t matter what any of us, including me, think.
If you startup with the intent to operate a flight and there is an unplanned issue that causes you not to fly it’s loggable. If you crank up and taxi out then get a ground hold for flow before you takeoff it’s all loggable flight time. If you crank up with the intent to pad your logbook and leave the airplane idling while you play candy crush on your phone then do one trip around the patch the FAA thinks you’re a fraudulent prick. I don’t see how this is a hard concept.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
It’s like porn. You’ll know it when you see it. Besides that the FAA has defined it for us. It doesn’t matter what any of us, including me, think.
If you startup with the intent to operate a flight and there is an unplanned issue that causes you not to fly it’s loggable. If you crank up and taxi out then get a ground hold for flow before you takeoff it’s all loggable flight time. If you crank up with the intent to pad your logbook and leave the airplane idling while you play candy crush on your phone then do one trip around the patch the FAA thinks you’re a fraudulent prick. I don’t see how this is a hard concept.
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But but but the "letter of the law" says it doesn't matter if i play candy crush! I want my hours dammit!

My point is if we're going to go by the letter of the law then the most ridiculous thing needs to be accepted or we need to accept nothing except time actually spent in the air. I mean people are advocating black and white let's make it black and white.
 
EdFred said:
But but but the "letter of the law" says it doesn't matter if i play candy crush! I want my hours dammit!

My point is if we're going to go by the letter of the law then the most ridiculous thing needs to be accepted or we need to accept nothing except time actually spent in the air. I mean people are advocating black and white let's make it black and white.
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That’s retarded. If you would actually read the FAA guidance it’s pretty darn clear that sitting around in a running airplane intentionally delaying to pad a logbook is not acceptable. It is black and white. The scenarios you have asked about are clearly not ok. You’re making this way to complicated
 
denverpilot said:
Taxiing out with the INTENT to fly and failing a runup and taxiing back... would be logged wouldn’t it...? The aircraft moved under its own power and was going to go flying, and then didn’t...

(Ducking and running away after throwing the hand grenade...) :)
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I've done this. Had a bad mag on run-up. Figured I paid for the time, gained valuable experience and I was PIC. I'm logging it.
 
labbadabba said:
I've done this. Had a bad mag on run-up. Figured I paid for the time, gained valuable experience and I was PIC. I'm logging it.
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I had an unforecast thunderstorm roll in. I figured I used all of those PIC brain cells not to launch into it. :)
 
So what say you to the relative FAA consistency of the “duty time” regs @EdFred ?

You didn’t respond to that one.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
That’s retarded. If you would actually read the FAA guidance it’s pretty darn clear that sitting around in a running airplane intentionally delaying to pad a logbook is not acceptable. It is black and white. The scenarios you have asked about are clearly not ok. You’re making this way to complicated
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I'm not the one saying time on the ground is flight time I think all time on the ground is just time on the ground time. But we have had people say all time on the ground is flight time without saying well all the time on the ground as long as it's only because of this, or this. They're saying all of it, if the Hobbs is running they are going to log in it no matter how long the Hobbs is running for.
 
I worked for a part 135 air taxi. The forest service who was a regular customer told management they would not pay for taxi time. All the planes they used for forest service business had the hobbs hooked to a switch that started the time at about 40mph on take off roll.

I'm lazy and use tach time instead of a stop watch, engine starts with intent to fly I log it. I don't think I logged the few times I had to abort a take off due the airspeed not coming alive on take off due to ice in the pito tube.
 
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denverpilot said:
Taxiing out with the INTENT to fly and failing a runup and taxiing back... would be logged wouldn’t it...? The aircraft moved under its own power and was going to go flying, and then didn’t...

(Ducking and running away after throwing the hand grenade...) :)
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Sounds like a few entries in my log book. Fired up, Hobbs started, taxied to the run-up area to prepare for take-off, failed the run-up and returned to the hangar. Logged about .2 hours.

Ravioli said:
^^^ he said hobbs. must be a renter
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Or a club member. :p

BrianNC said:
FAA allows me to log Hobbs time, that includes taxiing, I log it. Why would anybody shortchange themselves when it's allowed? Taxiing is a part of the 'flight' and a skill in itself. I think 'flight' means the totality of the flight, not just when the wheels lift off the ground. Apparently that's the way the FAA sees it since they allow you to log it.
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Yup. Every entry in my log book for the 18 years I've been a pilot is Hobbs time, start-up to shut-down. God help me if I had to go back and "fix" that.

BTW, that "18 years I've been a pilot" is amazing. Time flies when you're having fun.
 
denverpilot said:
(Ducking and running away after throwing the hand grenade...) :)
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I would argue that startup, taxiing, doing all your runup checks, setting up your flight plans and navigation radios, getting your clearances, preflight briefing, etc. on the ground is more legitimate log-able time than cruising in a straight line at high altitude for long distances with the autopilot engaged. By "legitimate" in this case I mean that it's more representative of experience that improves your skills.
 
I fall in to the catagory of “I don’t give a **** what you log, or what you think of what I log”. I will say that watching adults debate this is kinda funny....kinda sad.
 
Mike Smith said:
I fall in to the catagory of “I don’t give a **** what you log, or what you think of what I log”. I will say that watching adults debate this is kinda funny....kinda sad.
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I agree 100%. I just realized that there was only one adult involved in the debate. Since I’m done now there are no adults left in the discussion....

@EdFred put on his ****tard super troll hat last night and I was stupid enough engage in the discussion.
 
I also don’t have a hobbs meter. But I did taxi my plane to the local drive-in movie for a 24 hour movie marathon. Can I log it? I mean I bought popcorn. That sht went everywhere.
 
denverpilot said:
As Ed noted, ground ops doesn’t require a PIC at all. Non-certificated people can taxi airplanes around all day.

In the air carrier world, the mechanics have a special training certificate for ground handling of airliners.
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Hell, if Joe Patroni can do it:

Joe_Patroni_2.jpg
 
EdFred said:
I'm not the one saying time on the ground is flight time I think all time on the ground is just time on the ground time. But we have had people say all time on the ground is flight time without saying well all the time on the ground as long as it's only because of this, or this. They're saying all of it, if the Hobbs is running they are going to log in it no matter how long the Hobbs is running for.
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Those people saying time on the ground is loggable time are the ones that count, you know, the Faa.
 
Mike Smith said:
I fall in to the catagory of “I don’t give a **** what you log, or what you think of what I log”. I will say that watching adults debate this is kinda funny....kinda sad.
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Put me in this category too.

Man some people must lose their minds over the guys with a Tach only that just multiply by 1.2.

At uncontrolled airport like the one I fly at most of the time you can pretty easily taxi out do a quick run up do two trips around the pattern in the Champ in .2 or .3 if you keep your patterns tight maybe 3 trips. You won't make pattern altitude though. :D
 
Ryanb said:
.the wheels may not have actually moved but
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Assuming you have pneumatic tires like everyone else, the airplane will move when you start the engine whether you wanted it to or not. No way to prevent it.

Bigger number -> lower insurance (at least to some point...)
 
Salty said:
Those people saying time on the ground is loggable time are the ones that count, you know, the Faa.
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The FAA (through the chief counsel) also has some WTF decisions. It doesn't mean they are right.
 
EdFred said:
The FAA (through the chief counsel) also has some WTF decisions. It doesn't mean they are right.
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They are the authority. That means they are right.

Feel free to divide by two and log if you want. No skin off my nose. Not sure why it even matters to you how other people log As long as it’s legal.
 
If adding a simple column of numbers is difficult for the OP, I wonder what trouble he’ll have with performance calculations, W&B, etc.

SMH.
 
Salty said:
They are the authority. That means they are right.

Feel free to divide by two and log if you want. No skin off my nose. Not sure why it even matters to you how other people log As long as it’s legal.
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It doesn't really matter, but for those that say any and all time the prop is running, why is 24 minutes of ground time loggable and reasonable, but 24 hours of ground time not? It shouldn't matter why you are idling right, just that eventually, you are going to fly. Ridiculous? Absolutely, but if one minute is acceptable than 1 day should be acceptable. But apparently 1 day isn't acceptable from those those that say as soon as the prop spins. So where's the cut off for those saying all time all the time?
 
The reality is the requirements are arbitrary as well so what difference does it make? The number of hours a pilot has really doesn't tell you anything about their ability.
 
Ryanb said:
Maybe common sense really isn’t so common...

Anyhow, I’m thinking the confusion may be coming from the way the numbers are written in the logbook? For example 1|2 is 1.2 not 12— the line in the middle of the two numbers is theoretically a decimal. Maybe that helps?
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Oh come on Ryan. Checkbooks and practically every ledger I have ever seen has used a vertical line like that and not a decimal point.
 
I didn't read the rest of the responses, but, youre joking right? You don't understand decimals?? Sooo, is money an issue for you?? How is that possible?
 
eman1200 said:
I also don’t have a hobbs meter. But I did taxi my plane to the local drive-in movie for a 24 hour movie marathon. Can I log it? I mean I bought popcorn. That sht went everywhere.
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Next time turn off the engine before you get popcorn. Prop wash with throw that stuff father than you can imagine!:)
 
EdFred said:
It doesn't really matter, but for those that say any and all time the prop is running, why is 24 minutes of ground time loggable and reasonable, but 24 hours of ground time not? It shouldn't matter why you are idling right, just that eventually, you are going to fly. Ridiculous? Absolutely, but if one minute is acceptable than 1 day should be acceptable. But apparently 1 day isn't acceptable from those those that say as soon as the prop spins. So where's the cut off for those saying all time all the time?
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I still don't get why you want to penalize yourself. Is it OCD forcing you to follow the strictest, most basic definition of the phrase "flight time?" Is someone watching over your shoulder, promising to beat you if you "cheat" even a little? Blink twice if you need us to call the police for you.
 
But what do I do if the hobbs meter is halfway between numbers? Round up or round down? Does the FAA have any guidance on this? :D
 
DFH65 said:
The reality is the requirements are arbitrary as well so what difference does it make? The number of hours a pilot has really doesn't tell you anything about their ability.
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So true. I flew with a Delta pilot (rated in everything Delta flies with a gazillion hours) and he scared the crap out of me in his Bonanza V35.
 
EdFred said:
It doesn't really matter, but for those that say any and all time the prop is running, why is 24 minutes of ground time loggable and reasonable, but 24 hours of ground time not? It shouldn't matter why you are idling right, just that eventually, you are going to fly. Ridiculous? Absolutely, but if one minute is acceptable than 1 day should be acceptable. But apparently 1 day isn't acceptable from those those that say as soon as the prop spins. So where's the cut off for those saying all time all the time?
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For me, personally, I log hobbs time if I fly. The few times I've started up, taxied out and then aborted for whatever reason, I didn't log. Also, I start, taxi as directly as I can to the run-up area, run up and take off as soon as I'm cleared. When I land, I taxi as directly as allowed by ground control and traffic back to parking. It's OK as far as the FAA is concerned, I have no intentions of working as a pilot so it's doesn't really matter in that regard.

If I had a nifty setup that would time 2000 RPM and up, I'd probably use it. But it wouldn't count about 1/2 my normal pattern work while I'm actually in the air. (Does yours? I'm not familiar with the setup.)

If you throttle up above 2000 RPM and it starts timing, then you abort the takeoff (let's say a cow runs onto the runway), do you log it?

John
 
SkyDog58 said:
Oh come on Ryan. Checkbooks and practically every ledger I have ever seen has used a vertical line like that and not a decimal point.
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Good point, I didn’t think about that. So maybe my original theory still stands—common sense really isn’t so common nowadays?
 
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