Flight Following & Two Planes (Same Destination, Same Time)

Sinistar

En-Route
Joined
Sep 9, 2016
Messages
3,712
Display Name

Display name:
Brad
So let's say two planes are going to leave the same (uncontrolled) airport launching one right after the other. They are going to fly direct to the same destination (a Delta). They've agreed on VFR @ 6500msl. They've worked through plans on in-flight comms (eg. 122.75 on COM2), who will be first, who will be on left or right or ahead, etc. And they've worked out that if there's a divert what they will do (but not relevant to this question). Neither pilot has ever done formation flying and would like to keep this as two individual flights.

Now they also agree to pick up FF once they climb through 3000msl. Lets say its a 2hr flight and will get handed off from departure to center to approach so at least 2 more ATC handoffs. And since their arrival will be a Delta there is at least one more in-flight ATC that will be involved.

So what do you tell departure on the initial call?
What does ATC want/need/expect in this scenario?
How would you handle arrival at the Delta if you are still close together?
 
You tell them what you want to do. I know working ATC in the Air Force a fighter formation flight has lead squawking only. When we'd break up a flight each plane then was issued a squawk and heading to fly to separate the flight, and the jets.

Arrive at D, the tower will sequence the two planes. Not a big deal at all.
 
Last edited:
Interesting topic. Subscribed.
 
I recently did a flight with another aircraft, my plane was faster by 10 kts/hr (and it’s likely two GA aircraft will not have the exact same speed specs for their suggested mixture/prop settings) we just communicated on a dead channel and had FF on as well. Both squawked separate codes and told FF we were in communication with one another and flying together. Seemed to work very well. We made 3 fuel stops along the way and did a couple pattern landings and one straight in and had ample time and separation.
 
So let's say two planes are going to leave the same (uncontrolled) airport launching one right after the other. They are going to fly direct to the same destination (a Delta). They've agreed on VFR @ 6500msl. They've worked through plans on in-flight comms (eg. 122.75 on COM2), who will be first, who will be on left or right or ahead, etc. And they've worked out that if there's a divert what they will do (but not relevant to this question). Neither pilot has ever done formation flying and would like to keep this as two individual flights.

Now they also agree to pick up FF once they climb through 3000msl. Lets say its a 2hr flight and will get handed off from departure to center to approach so at least 2 more ATC handoffs. And since their arrival will be a Delta there is at least one more in-flight ATC that will be involved.

So what do you tell departure on the initial call?
What does ATC want/need/expect in this scenario?
How would you handle arrival at the Delta if you are still close together?

You said “neither pilot has ever done formation flying and would like to keep this as two individual flights.” That is the answer. Keep it as two individual flights. That simple. What do you tell departure on the initial call? Same thing you always do. One of you will do it, then the other one will.
 
I've always hear it done like @denverpilot. Just say "flight of two" and you're good to go. Nothing more to it.
 
Did this last year easy peasy. We departed an uncontrolled field in MS and flew to an Airport in east florida (3.2 hours away). The lead was my buddy and I stayed back a mile ish or so. He did all the radio work with center and it was FF for a flight of 2 direct destination. We talked on COMM 2 and he talked on Comm 1 and I just monitored it. When we arrived we treated it as two separate aircraft at that point.

Its easy, just decide who will be lead and let them do all the talking and tell them flight of 2. When you get to tower you can likely keep the flight of 2 thing or separate into 2 separate targets.
 
With no experience whatsoever.... not sure how far apart they should be

To be kinda hard here, if the pilots haven’t had at least a modicum or formation flight training, they should simply fly their own separate flights.

Even for “loose” formation.

The FARs require anyone flying formation to brief it ahead of time. See that one busted quite a bit.

.....

Basically if you’re going to stay close enough to each other that the two aircraft will freak out the controller that they’re on top of each other on the scope, at least let the controller know.

.....

Better yet, get a little formation practice and training with someone who’s done it and follow formation protocols like...

The lead aircraft squawks and the others silence their transponders unless asked by ATC not to.

Safety briefing is done ahead of time for all proceedures.

One pilot talks to ATC the others follow, with a plan for if Lead loses comm.

A second frequency for ship to ship.

Decent radio discipline for the ship to ship comm (“I don’t want to hear anything out of you except ‘Two’ or ‘Lead’s on fire’... or whatever you agree to in the briefing...)


.... etc etc etc.

There’s more than one way to skin the cat in a flight of two or more, but there’s training and conventions available for those who seek them.
 
I've always hear it done like @denverpilot. Just say "flight of two" and you're good to go. Nothing more to it.

I added to my simple statement.

I won’t say “flight of two” unless I know damn sure what the procedures we are using are, or know the other pilot well enough that all I have to say is “You’re lead, standard procedures...” and they’ve done this before and we actually have ... some standard procedures.

Any question, we fully brief it ahead of time.
 
“Flight of two”. Done.
So what are the requirements for flight of two? Is there required training and a sign off. I've seen a flight of two launch and I recall either the ground and/or tower comms had some unique verbiage I had never heard before? Actually my wife chuckled as she knew what was about to happen. #1 got to the hold short before us (opposite side), #2 got there after us and when he launched right after #1 i was like "WTF - we were supposed to be next".

Granted the above example was for the taxi ground portion...but there must be more to it than just saying flight of two?

One mile apart or 100 yards apart?
I guess I don't know either, was curious what ATC expects or needs. Do they want to see two unique targets on radar and therefore need a specific distance (eg. 1000yds?)
 
No sign off, just say flight of two and stay about a mile away from each other. At a mile it gets kind of hard to see the lead so its not like you're that close to him. Center will know obviously that there is a target next to the squawker. Its no big deal, do it and have fun and if you're the wing you get to relax on the radios.
 
Granted the above example was for the taxi ground portion...but there must be more to it than just saying flight of two?

?)

Brad, Brad, Brad. How many posts have told you there's nothing to it, and what you just asked is what you say. o_O
 
You said “neither pilot has ever done formation flying and would like to keep this as two individual flights.” That is the answer. Keep it as two individual flights. That simple. What do you tell departure on the initial call? Same thing you always do. One of you will do it, then the other one will.
This makes sense and it’s what I did when attempting the same thing with ATC. However I quickly found out it is the wrong thing to do. I strongly suggest letting ATC in on your actual plan. As other have said, “flight of two” will do the trick. ATC will immediately understand what you are doing, they will support you however desired and not ask additional questions.

Now you can focus on the basics of a loose formation flight with your buddy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
I guess I don't know either, was curious what ATC expects or needs. Do they want to see two unique targets on radar and therefore need a specific distance (eg. 1000yds?)
More what youse guys need to keep from swapping paint.

Can you count on trail to 100%, no exception, not no way, not now how, do absolutely nothing except watch the lead with both eyes and maintain separation? Or are they going to occasionally piddle around with ipads or something for "just a couple seconds"?
 
I recently did a flight with another aircraft, my plane was faster by 10 kts/hr (and it’s likely two GA aircraft will not have the exact same speed specs for their suggested mixture/prop settings) we just communicated on a dead channel and had FF on as well. Both squawked separate codes and told FF we were in communication with one another and flying together. Seemed to work very well. We made 3 fuel stops along the way and did a couple pattern landings and one straight in and had ample time and separation.

There are no "dead channels." Every frequency in the aviation band is assigned to someone either in the air or on the ground or both. There is an air-to-air frequency....122.75...use it. Your airplane has an FCC station license and you are required to abide by FCC (not FAA) regulations.

Bob
 
Used to take 3-5 planes for weekend breakfast. Fast planes took off first, slow ones last. Everyone had their own squawk from the Class D (also TRSA, so they had radar). Had an A36, another Mooney, me and two 172s. Man, do I miss that! :(

Went 1300+ nm each way with friends in a 172 (significant speed difference!). We got our own squawks, they took off first and I arranged parking and vehicles while waiting on them to arrive. Com2 is how we talked to each other. No problem other than my wife getting impatient while waiting a couple of times.
 
Op stated that he’d doesn’t want to go as a formation, therefore “flight of two” is out of the question. Do what Luvflyin said above and call for individual FF as you normally do.
 
.......I guess I don't know either, was curious what ATC expects or needs. Do they want to see two unique targets on radar and therefore need a specific distance (eg. 1000yds?)

Where are we now? Operating as individuals as you said you wanted do in the original post. Or are you a Flight now?
 
So what are the requirements for flight of two? Is there required training and a sign off. I've seen a flight of two launch and I recall either the ground and/or tower comms had some unique verbiage I had never heard before? Actually my wife chuckled as she knew what was about to happen. #1 got to the hold short before us (opposite side), #2 got there after us and when he launched right after #1 i was like "WTF - we were supposed to be next".

Granted the above example was for the taxi ground portion...but there must be more to it than just saying flight of two?

I guess I don't know either, was curious what ATC expects or needs. Do they want to see two unique targets on radar and therefore need a specific distance (eg. 1000yds?)

You can call it a “flight of two” but without training you probably won’t be operating in any real semblance of a formation. While no training is required if I were to fly formation with someone outside of the military, I’d go through some sort of organized training.

http://www.flyfast.org/sites/all/docs/FAST_FKG_2.0.pdf

On the ATC side, they expect you to fly as a flight. That means, you’re controlled as a single aircraft. In your case while they won’t be adding any airborne separation for your flight, in the class D, you would be sequenced and cleared to land as a flight. The closer you are to lead, the easier that is for them if it’s a busy D. Standard internal sep from lead is within 100 ft vertical and 1 mile lateral. Outside of that it still can be considered a formation but non standard. Standard formation sep will be one code (lead) while non standard could be a trailing aircraft on a non descrete code if controller / facility rules dictate.
 
Last edited:
The way I remember it is the lead squawks. All others in formation squawk standby.
That means "don't turn your transponder to 'ALT', just leave it in that mode it's in when it's parked", right? And do you set it to 1200, or does the actual number not matter when in "standby mode" rather than "alt mode"?
 
That means "don't turn your transponder to 'ALT', just leave it in that mode it's in when it's parked", right? And do you set it to 1200, or does the actual number not matter when in "standby mode" rather than "alt mode"?
If it’s a true formation leave it in stby. They code shouldn’t matter. The lead will say “flight of two” (or whatever number) and squawk the code.

At least that’s the way it was done several years back.

I’m guessing several close airplanes on the scope squawking the controller can’t see doo doo.
 
That means "don't turn your transponder to 'ALT', just leave it in that mode it's in when it's parked", right? And do you set it to 1200, or does the actual number not matter when in "standby mode" rather than "alt mode"?

Depends on the model of transponder.

On really old transponders “standby” was a setting that would power it up and warm up the electronics so it was ready to go, but inhibit all transmissions.

On newer stuff that’s solid state it usually does a power up and checks firmware integrity and other self checks and also inhibits transmissions. It may also allow the ADS-B *IN* receiver to operate since that doesn’t require transmission *OUT*.

Code won’t matter. It won’t be transmitting in standby.

“Alt” won’t matter either. That’s whether or not you’re transmitting your altitude. Remember there’s “on” where your transponder responds with a transmissions to interrogation by a ground station, and there’s “alt” which takes your altitude source on board (blind encoder or encoding altimeter) and includes that extra information in the response. Altitude information is known as “Mode C”.

If a controller asks you to “stop Mode C” you’d go from “Alt” to “On”. Transponder still transmitting when interrogated but the (probably faulty, and driving the controller nuts) altitude information will be stopped.

For an official formation flight where one aircraft is talking to ATC and the rest of the aircraft aren’t, usually OFF or Standby are selected in the trailing aircraft. Standby is the better option of the two if you have it, since the transponder is ready to go at any time if the flight separates, and any receivers in it (such as ADS-B IN) are usually operable.

The newest transponders often also have a dedicated “VFR” button which flips them to 1200 and depending on model may also force “Alt” back on by default or not. Nice feature.

Always check your own particular transponder’s manual for complete details, of course. It’ll be in the required items on board.

As far as actually USING something like your ADS-B IN while truly flying formation, unlikely, unless your passenger is doing it. Your job in the trailing aircraft is to maintain position on your lead and follow their instructions (whether radio or hand signals) and you’ll be busier than a one-armed man in a paper-hanging contest the first time you do it under the watchful eye of a formation flight instructor, just holding your spot.

Your lead handles Aviating, Navigating, and Communicating for the flight. Your job is to stick right to your spot on their wing. Good leads know the challenges of what you’re doing to stay there and aviate and communicate in such a way that you know what’s coming up and makes it as easy as possible for you to stay with them through any maneuvering.

Your only communications job is to acknowledge lead. Usually with your position number. “Two.” That’s the most you’ll usually say for an entire formation flight.

(There’s other communication on the ground for start up and frequency changes and such... but this is the basics.)

The FAST card and training are highly recommended. Barring that, time with and good briefings with folks who’ve done it can be substituted for loose formation work.

It’s NOT recommended to just go out with two inexperienced pilots and attempt it. You’ll likely end up with a whole lot of airplane up close and personal in the window at some point that you didn’t want to see, and things can go wrong very quickly.

As someone said, a mile or so apart? It’s just two airplanes flying. You will probably be able to keep the other airplane in sight but sun angles and things can mess that up.

Now what’s your plan to avoid a collision? You know you’re inside of a mile to another aircraft and on generally agreeing courses but not quite sure where he went. Continue? Does someone circle to put some distance between you? What directions are your “safety outs” from each other if you lose visual contact? Etc.

Closer can actually be better in this case — IF you know how to do it. Much better visual contact but if you don’t know how to move away if someone turns into you, or don’t know they’re going to turn, and don’t have a breakaway plan for everyone...

You probably get the idea. Transponder is the least of your worries when operating aircraft in close proximity to one another. It’s just another item on the checklist. Important but not the MOST important part.

Hope that helps.
 
Last edited:
If it’s a true formation leave it in stby. They code shouldn’t matter. The lead will say “flight of two” (or whatever number) and squawk the code.

At least that’s the way it was done several years back.

I’m guessing several close airplanes on the scope squawking the controller can’t see doo doo.

Tag / code overlap is the primary issue. In the the old days with older SSR and mode 3A, you’d get “ring around” if in close to the SSR antenna. That’s when the integrator gets confused at who’s squawking what so you get like a dozen or so codes looping around the scope.

If it’s a typical standard formation, they should show up as one “blip” anyway. There’s no real need to identify everyone in a flight with a single target. All aircraft move as one to the controller’s instructions. Now, spread out over several miles (non standard), then you want all squawking or just lead and trail in order to apply appropriate sep (if req). Depends on controller / facility which technique is used.
 
Last edited:
P.S. *Some* modern transponders try to be “helpful” and will switch themselves to Standby below certain speeds on the ground, and to Alt once airborne.

Those transponders need a firmware update. They’re not supposed to be in standby on the ground anymore per FAA and the AIM. But many never got the update.

And if flying formation you need to know if yours is one of the “helpful” (annoying) ones that will change it’s own settings. :)
 
Funny story... we were flying around and someone checked on the frequency.

Controller: Are you a flight of two?
Pilot: Huh? We're flying but there are 4 souls on board.

hahahaha!

@flyin'gator laughed so hard he lost 200' of altitude!
 
Funny story... we were flying around and someone checked on the frequency.

Controller: Are you a flight of two?
Pilot: Huh? We're flying but there are 4 souls on board.

hahahaha!

@flyin'gator laughed so hard he lost 200' of altitude!

LOL.

One of my radio pet peeves that’s not harmful and I don’t give anyone a hard time about, and also fall into the trap of doing it myself...

“WE are on left base...” from an airplane with a single occupant not in formation.

“Who? You and the mouse in your pocket?” :

I give other ham radio operators on the ham bands grief about it sometimes if I know them well. Then they catch me doing it.

“We? Is Karen with you today?” LOL
 
Tag / code overlap is the primary issue. In the the old days with older SSR and mode 3A, you’d get “ring around” if in close to the SSR antenna. That’s when the integrator gets confused at who’s squawking what so you get like a dozen or so codes looping around the scope.

If it’s a typical standard formation, they should show up as one “blip” anyway. There’s no real need to identify everyone in a flight with a single target. All aircraft move as one to the controller’s instructions. Now, spread out over several miles (non standard), then you want all squawking or just lead and trail in order to apply appropriate sep (if req). Depends on controller / facility which technique is used.
So I think you’re saying I’m correct??
 
So I think you’re saying I’m correct??

I think the biggest problem for the controllers these days is if they assign one aircraft a code and the other is on 1200 the automated collision alarms are going to go off/be annoying.

Could be wrong on that though. One of our resident controllers could probably tell us.
 
So I think you’re saying I’m correct??

Correct. I’d also add on the ATC side, very little is standardized across the board. There’s hardly anything in the controller’s manual on handling of formations so it’s mostly facility SOP. I’ve read ATC threads on Stuckmic where FAA phraseology and procedures were completely different than AF and Navy / Marines Controllers arguing back and forth about who’s doing correctly and which branch (generally AF) is all jacked up. ;)
 
One could be REALLY pedantic and wonder how a civilian would meet the legal requirements of Mode-C veils, etc... when doing formation work with multiple aircraft with transponders off...

MilAv can do what they want. Civilians perhaps can’t. But most do it the MilAv “way”.

The other way to really find out is to call the TRACON or Center and ask their preference. Nothing wrong with that if it’s a long XC where Flight Following is desired.

ATC can always ask a civilian to STOP squawking for any reason. Technically, although nobody really cares, a civilian pilot can’t turn off the transponder in certain airspace.

But, it’s done. And nobody complains too much on either side of the scope. Biggest and most important part is just communicating to everyone what’s happening so everyone’s on the same sheet music. :)
 
I think the biggest problem for the controllers these days is if they assign one aircraft a code and the other is on 1200 the automated collision alarms are going to go off/be annoying.

Could be wrong on that though. One of our resident controllers could probably tell us.

That too. Although, I wanna say we got CAs just splitting aircraft up by squawking them within a certain radius (3 miles) of lead. Been awhile so I don’t recall the exact parameters of the CA process.
 
Back
Top