Thinking About a Deck

[Ted]

It's been a while since I've done a "thinking about" thread.

Our house has a deck off the living room, sized 10'x16'. When we got the house we had structural concerns regarding the deck, so we had someone come out and beef it up. Now we aren't so much concerned about the structure of the deck itself, but the floor boards on it are in rotten shape and the main posts are also getting warped. It's about 15 years old at this point.

Our master bedroom is also below the current deck. And we had an enclosed area on our deck in our last house that we really liked in our last house. So we were thinking have someone come out and build this 2-story deck.

Apparently people feel like spending money these days, because we're getting numbers that are in competition with what our kitchen remodel cost a few years ago. So, now I'm thinking "screw it, build a deck myself."

Here's the current deck:

It has 12" concrete footers, which seems too small to me for adding the 2nd story. But @jesse pointed out that his deck is so well engineered that it has beams not even touching the ground.

I'd want to expand the width enough to take it to the edge of the house, which will make it work better with the master bedroom. We'll add a sliding door to get out to the 2nd story deck.

Our county uses the 2006 international guidelines so it looks like I should just read those and follow them. Currently I have 12" concrete footers but will probably need (or at least want) bigger ones for our area.

@jesse thinks that I should expand the deck, make it wrap-around, and support for the hot tub. The expansion idea is appealing, as is the hot tub one, bug the logistics of moving a hot tub into a location that high is a big much.

So I suppose this is more of a "How crazy am I for wanting to build this myself?" Note that Jesse will need to come down to help and I already have some degree of heavy equipment. And then any thoughts on things to do to make it better.

 

[FORANE]

I rebuilt and expanded ours with help from a buddy. we have around 7000 linear feet of deck. I joking say that I have a big deck...

We used a composite deck material called seven and spelled cevn. it has held up great. highly recommended.
Definitely follow Jesse's advice. we have a hot tub on the upper front deck and it is great. The wrap around porches are great also; they keep the house much cooler while adding usable outdoor living area.
We found it in bulk for low cost through a wholesaler as it was a discontinued color.

 

[catmandu]

Not so crazy to want to do it yourself. Especially with a little experienced help. Spend the money on the proper tools to do the job right.

You already have a two story deck, you just want to add flooring to the lower portion. Might consider making that a screen porch or sunroom.

Keep or locate the hot tub where it makes sense for use. Do you plan on eating / entertaining outside on the upper deck and tubbing at the same time? Naked tubbing with easy access to the MBR? Chill with a beverage while watching kids in the tub? Those type of thoughts will tell you where it needs to go.

Our local lumber yards will do deck designs to code with plans suitable to give to the county for the building permit.

 

[Everskyward]

Our master bedroom is also below the current deck.

Pretty sure you mean to say that your master bedroom is above the current deck.

I like the idea of a two-story deck. The top story would give the bottom story some shade. I haven't been to your house in warm weather, but I imagine that deck gets hot in the summer. Also, how about having the lower deck wider than it is now?

 

[weilke]

@jesse thinks that I should expand the deck, make it wrap-around, and support for the hot tub. The expansion idea is appealing, as is the hot tub one, bug the logistics of moving a hot tub into a location that high is a big much.

A material handler for an hour should be all you need to get the hot tub onto the deck. It's not like you are trying to lift a full hot-tub...
Set it at the corner with an 'infinity edge'.

 

[bradg33]

Moving the hot tub should be easy. Isn't your wife a helicopter pilot? Presumably she has external load experience. Problem solved.

 

[Grum.Man]

My old boss spent close to 20k on his two story deck very similar to what you are looking at. I have another coworker that went composite for a large back deck that cost him 35k. I had wood delivered just to resurface my back deck (15x36). Lumber cost alone was $1,300.00. Looking at another 75 in screws and that doesn't count any framing or labor.

 

[SkyDog58]

I rebuilt and expanded ours with help from a buddy. we have around 7000 linear feet of deck. I joking say that I have a big deck...

We used a composite deck material called seven and spelled cevn. it has held up great. highly recommended.
Definitely follow Jesse's advice. we have a hot tub on the upper front deck and it is great. The wrap around porches are great also; they keep the house much cooler while adding usable outdoor living area.
View attachment 64426 View attachment 64427 View attachment 64428 We found it in bulk for low cost through a wholesaler as it was a discontinued color.

Wow. That looks fantastic.

 

[steingar]

A full time job, wife, three kids, house and a nonprofit canine transport foundation. Not to mention taking mechanical care of cars and bikes and whatnot. And now you want to build a two-story deck. Damn. I'm lucky if I can get up the gumption to clean the bathroom.

 

[Ted]

I think a few things were unclear in the original post.

The photo shown has the walk-out basement. The current deck is in-line with the 1st floor. @Everskyward is correct that the master bedroom is on the 2nd floor, so above where it currently is. So the goal is to basically keep the current deck area the same (slightly expanded) and then make a deck that will be ~17 ft off the ground.

@FORANE your deck looks awesome.

If we put the hot tub somewhere on the deck, it would be on the first floor, so in line with what's there now, just further off to the left side of the house. The intent is to expand the patio area down on the ground (walk-out basement) level at some point, although I'm not entirely sure how much we would realistically use that.

Of course, we could also always build up what exists now and then add on later if we wanted...

 

[Ted]

A full time job, wife, three kids, house and a nonprofit canine transport foundation. Not to mention taking mechanical care of cars and bikes and whatnot. And now you want to build a two-story deck. Damn. I'm lucky if I can get up the gumption to clean the bathroom.

You forgot that we're building a runway.

 

[EdFred]

Hot tub has the same cover on it mine does. Also looks like the same one I have. Ecco?

If it's an Ecco, it will slide surprisingly easy when empty.

 

[MIFlyer]

Considerations and advice

Considerations include blocking sun from upper and lower windows. factor orientation of house via cardinals and what the functions of those rooms are
Considerations also include the general direction of the house. a south deck vs north deck would drive different decisions for me

On the ground level, i'd do a slab with a perimeter footer and build a simple cage of #4 rebar. if it was my project, i'd have them throw fiber in the concrete mix too, unless you're polishing it. You COULD polish it yourself and make it AWESOME for not too much work (if done while still fairly green). I'd plan for a 2' cantilever for the second story, but that will drive screening considerations, so think about it.

also, think aobut the grade at gound and rainwater. you may have to pitch your yard away. I can't tell from the photo.

on the upper story, assuming that comes out of the kitchen or something, i'd go huge. 14' deep (12+2' cantilever) or more and go "end to end" the long way on your house. it will cost surprisingly little if DIY

 

[FORANE]

You may find a deal on composite decking material at ironstone building materials in lancaster pa depending on what they have in stock when you get ready to buy.
Look up their website.

 

[Ted]

@MIFlyer it's a west facing deck.

We put a french drain in a few years ago due to drainage issues around the ground level. That's solved all those issues.

Right now the deck only comes out 10'. We're fine with that amount currently. But, something to think about...

 

[MIFlyer]

sorry Ted, I see the update.

OK, if you don't care about the basement level, fine, though you could do a nice big slab bag there for storage/entertaining/whatever.

on the main level (second floor to west coasters), i'd still go end to end with the deck. up to you, but a normal deck fills up fast and it's SO CHEAP to build it bigger once you've actually dug the tools out and mobilized for it. i don't have a ton of advice on how to put one above for your bedroom, but thinking of load and lift, i'd be even more driven to want a true slab with footer on the basement level with proper hurricane straps holding your deck in place above it. isn't it really windy there? also, don't you get a frost line? i bet that's why your currents supports are "decorative" not structural, due to ground movement

 

[Ted]

You may find a deal on composite decking material at ironstone building materials in lancaster pa depending on what they have in stock when you get ready to buy.
Look up their website.

We definitely do look to get deals on stuff that's going out of production or the like.

 

[FORANE]

Be aware that if you use composite decking some of it gets spongy in the heat of summer. You may want to plan 12 inch joists to prevent this.

 

[Ted]

Be aware that if you use composite decking some of it gets spongy in the heat of summer. You may want to plan 12 inch joists to prevent this.

Good to know. Pretty sure that it has 12" joists already.

 

[tspear]

I have built multiple decks over the years. Not really that hard, just very tedious. There are methods which are easier but take longer which are better for the layman compared to the professional. Do a little research, and go for it.

Tim

 

[Ted]

The idea of pouring the additional concrete slab and then putting the deck on top of it is also an appealing one. That would solve the footer issue (if I understand correctly) and might make a lot of sense if we went that route. That's a very worthwhile consideration.

 

[weilke]

My new house has the deck screened in with lighting and a ceiling fan. Compared with the old one that was just a straight deck, it sees about 10x the use. There are few dinners we don't take outside from spring to fall. We also have a couch right under the ceiling fan, the only thing I still need to install is a TV.
So if you do that second story portion, consider screening in the part that comes out from the kitchen.....and make it yuuge.

You are probably in a dryer climate, but the concrete patio underneath a deck can be a gathering ground for dust and algae. Make sure it has a good grade to it so you can power wash it if needed.

 

[Ted]

My new house has the deck screened in with lighting and a ceiling fan. Compared with the old one that was just a straight deck, it sees about 10x the use. There are few dinners we don't take outside from spring to fall. We also have a couch right under the ceiling fan, the only thing I still need to install is a TV.

We really enjoyed the screened-in deck at our last house, and used it quite a bit - especially if it was raining. That's part of why the initial idea of building the deck off the master bedroom that we've had for some time now. Well, and we want the wall of windows.

 

[FormerHangie]

"screw it, build a deck myself."

Definitely use screws. Nails pop out.

We had ours redone four years ago. It's not overly huge, but it took one guy two days to demolish the old one, and two guys a full week to build it. I'd never have gotten it done by myself.

Ours is made of a composite made by Fiberon, Horizon is the product name. After four years in the Georgia sun, rain and pollen, it looks new. it's polyethylene capped, and isn't very porous. The sides are slotted for fasteners, so very few screws go through it. I wash it with Corte Clean once a year, it's sort of an industrial strength oxygen cleaner. The railing is cedar and needs to be stained every other year. You can get composite railing but it's scary expensive.

For the part you walk on, stained wood looks bad quickly. Oiled hardwood looks better, but needs frequent oiling. The composite looks better than I thought it would and is holding up amazingly well.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Ted, you may be putting the cart before the horse. Have you researched what kind of permitting you will have to do with your local building authority? They usually require an engineered set of plans for a major building expansion. All of those details would be worked out in the preparation of such.

Note that I could legally stamp a set of home improvement plans and submit it for building plan check. Would I? Hell no, I'd hire an architect.

 

[Pilawt]

Be aware that if you use composite decking some of it gets spongy in the heat of summer. You may want to plan 12 inch joists to prevent this.

Avoid Trex. At. All. Costs. PM me if you like horror stories.

 

[Ted]

Definitely use screws. Nails pop out.

We had ours redone four years ago. It's not overly huge, but it took one guy two days to demolish the old one, and two guys a full week to build it. I'd never have gotten it done by myself.

Ours is made of a composite made by Fiberon, Horizon is the product name. After four years in the Georgia sun, rain and pollen, it looks new. it's polyethylene capped, and isn't very porous. The sides are slotted for fasteners, so very few screws go through it. I wash it with Corte Clean once a year, it'sort of an industrial strength oxygen cleaner. The railing is cedar and needs to be stained every other year. You can get composite railing but it's scary expensive.

For the part you walk on, stained wood looks bad quickly. Oiled hardwood looks better, but needs frequent oiling. The composite looks better than I thought it would and is holding up amazingly well.

We're definitely planning on composite for the parts that we walk on. We didn't get to enjoy it for more than about a year, but our previous house we redid the deck with composite. A couple of friends came out for a week and they did spend the better part of that week on the demolition and rebuilding of the deck area. It was a pretty large area and it was triangular, plus there were structural aspects that they repaired, and added a bunch of electrical. So yeah, no doubt it's a significant project.

The reality of what will actually happen is we'll keep thinking on it for a while as we continue to work on other items around the house. Right now we have some work we're doing on the front porch, new driveway lights, and of course the work continuing on the runway. Plus I'm also working on the propeller light fixture for the front entryway, got another light fixture to build. The ideas we get from this will probably also help us figure out a better plan all around whenever we do things. We're waiting on another bid. I have a feeling that it will be lower but still more than we want to spend. And if we're continuing to think about what to do, then that will end up changing as well.

We'd also been considering redoing our master bathroom but had thought this might be cheaper and quicker to hire out someone else to do. We were going to do a good portion of the master bath remodel ourselves at this point. So, maybe we still end up there after all.

Ted, you may be putting the cart before the horse. Have you researched what kind of permitting you will have to do with your local building authority? They usually require an engineered set of plans for a major building expansion. All of those details would be worked out in the preparation of such.

Note that I could legally stamp a set of home improvement plans and submit it for building plan check. Would I? Hell no, I'd hire an architect.

Dude you've known me for long enough to know that I always put the cart before the horse. It's how I roll.

 

[chartbundle]

The only thing I learned about decks, at least in my climate, is to properly space the ledger board from the house so rain and pine needles can fall through, otherwise you get moisture trapped against the siding and early siding repair and early ledger board replacement.

 

[Timbeck2]

A deck?

Oh thank God. Carry on.






Oh c'mon, you know you were thinking it.

 

[overdrive148]

 

[kyleb]

Definitely use screws. Nails pop out.

I've built two decks at our house. A 10' x 18' and a 15' x 20'. On both, I used screws to attach the deckboards.

Now that one of the decks needs new decking, I'm thinking nails would have been better - easier to demo...

Certainly, nails are faster for assembly using a pneumatic nailer vs a screw gun.

 

[MIFlyer]

Ted, you may be putting the cart before the horse. Have you researched what kind of permitting you will have to do with your local building authority? They usually require an engineered set of plans for a major building expansion. All of those details would be worked out in the preparation of such.

Note that I could legally stamp a set of home improvement plans and submit it for building plan check. Would I? Hell no, I'd hire an architect.

good point. you probably won't need an architecture stamp, but as it's over 18" high, you might need an ME to stamp it for the joists and beams. if you don't do it yourself (you are a PE), then it's a few hundred to have a structural engineer do something like this.

 

[MIFlyer]

The only thing I learned about decks, at least in my climate, is to properly space the ledger board from the house so rain and pine needles can fall through, otherwise you get moisture trapped against the siding and early siding repair and early ledger board replacement.

i have no idea how you would do this. long bolts and washers?? I would say you need to flash under the siding and out over the ledger board so it stay dry.

additionally, he's in Kansas. no trees AFAIKT

 

[Sac Arrow]

good point. you probably won't need an architecture stamp, but as it's over 18" high, you might need an ME to stamp it for the joists and beams. if you don't do it yourself (you are a PE), then it's a few hundred to have a structural engineer do something like this.

Actually, a civil PE can prepare building plans for up to a four story building including the structural, unless it is a school or a hospital. Beyond that a structural (SE) must prepare at least the structural plans. I don't know how architects work but they can do some light structural.

The only thing a licensed ME would stamp is HVAC. They generally do not do building structural except in some cases equipment mounting.

 

[chartbundle]

i have no idea how you would do this. long bolts and washers?? I would say you need to flash under the siding and out over the ledger board so it stay dry.

additionally, he's in Kansas. no trees AFAIKT

In my case, yes, long bolts and cut PVC 4" pipe to act as a spacer.

I'm guessing Kansas also doesn't get 70 inches of rain a year.

 

[weilke]

I've built two decks at our house. A 10' x 18' and a 15' x 20'. On both, I used screws to attach the deckboards.

Some of the composite deck materials require a specific stainless fastener. While house-hunting I saw the result of what happens if you dont use the correct hardware. The plastic around the screw creates a crevice which will eat through any corrosion proofing on conventional fasteners. After a couple of years, the screws corrode off one by one and back out of the decking into the bottom of your foot. Also, as mentioned, the specs for joist spacing are different from wooden decking. With the joists too far apart, the composite decking will flex and eventually break off the fasteners right at the joist, again resulting in screws backing up into the bottom of your foot. So whatever you use, follow the manufacturers specs to a tee, even if the box of screws is $10 more than generic Home Depot and requires a goofy triple-square bit to install.

 

[weilke]

Actually, a civil PE can prepare building plans for up to a four story building including the structural, unless it is a school or a hospital. Beyond that a structural (SE) must prepare at least the structural plans. I don't know how architects work but they can do some light structural.

The only thing a licensed ME would stamp is HVAC. They generally do not do building structural except in some cases equipment mounting.

Plenty of jurisdictions allow the homeowner to submit his own plans and as long as it doesn't exceed certain free-spans, the AHJ approves them without either an engineers or architects stamp.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Plenty of jurisdictions allow the homeowner to submit his own plans and as long as it doesn't exceed certain free-spans, the AHJ approves them without either an engineers or architects stamp.

Yeah I don't know, I was just throwing out the question. A second level addition sounds fairly heavy duty to me.

 

[Matthew]

I'll ask my contractor buddy about any gotchas to be aware of on adding what is essentially a 3rd floor deck. That's a long way up and I don't know how the lower deck will have to support the upper deck when the lower deck is already 8' high.

 

[tspear]

I have lost track of the number of decks I have built. Everything from a three tier deck, 6x6 walk out, to a two level octagon that was shaped closer to an elipse at 20x26 for my house. To helping my dad build a four tier deck that was over 30 ft wide and 20 ft deep, to a three tier deck for a brother that was 16ft in the air....
Now, you really no longer need to see an architect anymore; unless you are doing something really advanced. There is software to generate the full plans, and most national chains can print out almost everything you need to get the permit and do it yourself. When I did my deck, due to the octagon shape I had to do a few additional drawings and math calculations but the permit office gave me the charts and tables to do them. Overall rather simple. Now, my younger brother is a mechanical engineer, so he took my design to his structural engineering class in college. The conclusion of the class was the design was "over engineered" by about 20% above code requirements. This is what makes the software much easier to develop, they build in the margins. Even with the extra joists, posts, and nails/bolts it was still cheaper to use the software than pay the fees for an architect and structural engineer.

If you use wood for the deck, make sure you have the rings in the correct direction; with the top being convex. Rings showing concave will warp as the wood captures the water.

Lastly, consider going with a sun room on the bottom, with a screened porch above, or even a simple deck with a "sunsetter" awning.

Tim