You know, I typically try to cut the younger generation some slack...

While I agree that the child being unsupervised was a major error on the part of the parents and that they should pay for any damages, what I wonder about is the value of the sculpture. The article quotes the artist saying:

"I want to be reimbursed for the amount of time that I spent on it and for what I think it is worth" And he says it is worth $132,000.

Well, unless he has a history of similar works selling for that much, it is probably worth far less. A court most likely will have to determine a value which I would not be surprised to see set far lower.
 
SkyDog58 said:
While I agree that the child being unsupervised was a major error on the part of the parents and that they should pay for any damages, what I wonder about is the value of the sculpture. The article quotes the artist saying:

"I want to be reimbursed for the amount of time that I spent on it and for what I think it is worth" And he says it is worth $132,000.

Well, unless he has a history of similar works selling for that much, it is probably worth far less. A court most likely will have to determine a value which I would not be surprised to see set far lower.
Click to expand...

It was worth so much it was on tour at a community center while collecting dust. :)
 
BigBadLou said:
FIFY

I've been saying for decades that people should require a license to reproduce, drive and vote. The biggest factors in the application process would be IQ and common sense.
But the government is against it. Smart voters are hard to influence and sway with political lies.
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Or maybe quit trying to save all the baby turtles and let things sort themselves out, quit doing things like putting warnings on hair dryers to not use them while taking a shower
 
James331 said:
Or maybe quit trying to save all the baby turtles and let things sort themselves out, quit doing things like putting warnings on hair dryers to not use them while taking a shower
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Now now. We need them for fresh meat to hire into the new Space Force! :) :) :) LOL LOL LOL.

They be protecting us from the aliens by building a platform from which to nuke ourselves from orbit. :) :) :)

Rah. Rah. Space Cadets!

Think there will be a new ring-knocker military academy built for the new branch?

“I went to Space Academy!”

Well hell, that qualifies you for immediate promotion to upper middle management and a Director title! Come on in. Why didn’t you say so before we did the interview? Didn’t you see my class ring? :) :) :)
 
denverpilot said:
You probably knew by five not to let him anywhere near a work of art in a studio or leave him unattended, I bet.
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Yeah, I was going to say similar. If this was "a child from hell" then this mother is doubly culpable for not keeping him on a short leash (literally).
 
The beginning of the video shows someone, dad maybe(?), shooing the kids away from the sculpture. There's a jump, then the kids reappear alone. Maybe dad was the one on kid duty?
 
Good point. It's definitely not just the mother's responsibility.
 
denverpilot said:
Now now. We need them for fresh meat to hire into the new Space Force! :) :) :) LOL LOL LOL.

They be protecting us from the aliens by building a platform from which to nuke ourselves from orbit. :) :) :)

Rah. Rah. Space Cadets!

Think there will be a new ring-knocker military academy built for the new branch?

“I went to Space Academy!”

Well hell, that qualifies you for immediate promotion to upper middle management and a Director title! Come on in. Why didn’t you say so before we did the interview? Didn’t you see my class ring? :) :) :)
Click to expand...

I've always wanted to be a space cadet!
 
timwinters said:
Good point. It's definitely not just the mother's responsibility.
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Some politicians told me once that a whole village (full of idiots who believe politicians) would be needed to raise all the children.

Was this information incorrect? I can’t imagine how it could be. I saw it on TV. Over and over and over.

LOL. :)
 
hankrausch said:
First off the son you beat (presumably, as you just admitted to ‘smacking’ your grandson) engaged in ‘fights and obscenities ‘ with his wife who is otherwise a ‘wonderful woman’? Sounds like the apple did not fall far from the tree.

Yes, parents need to supervise their children. Watching the video of that incident it is not clear that the kid was not supervised properly. Kids run. Unlesss you have shackles on them it is not possible to prevent every accident. And beating them only teaches them to be abusers. Sounds like you taught that lesson pretty well.
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3393RP said:
Some people can't refrain from creating drama and discord by extreme exaggeration. It's what drives Twitter.
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Bingo. You nailed that one. That's all I'll say about the post you're referring to.
 
timwinters said:
I really don't have a problem with kids being smacked around less. I don't think it's healthy to smack kids around...especially as much as I was and, boy, was I! My observation about my mom was ancillary,

My objection is the whole "ohhh...my little Johnny would NEVER do THAT!" attitude.
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Exactly, training and expectations, consequences. Don't think smacking, beating, spanking etc has been shown to help and might hinder. I was never hit but if I can't the least out of line the hurt and disappointment in mom's face was enough. (Dad died when I was 7).
 
I have a friend that has 8 or 9 kids, all grown up now.

I mean he beat them at every chance he got. And all his kids grew up to be responsible citizens and caring adults.





He beat them in tic tac toe, cards, marbles, checkers, basketball, etc.......
 
SkyDog58 said:
While I agree that the child being unsupervised was a major error on the part of the parents and that they should pay for any damages, what I wonder about is the value of the sculpture. The article quotes the artist saying:

"I want to be reimbursed for the amount of time that I spent on it and for what I think it is worth" And he says it is worth $132,000.

Well, unless he has a history of similar works selling for that much, it is probably worth far less. A court most likely will have to determine a value which I would not be surprised to see set far lower.
Click to expand...

There is another point I think. I have just seen the video but...

It seems to me that statue was (by the video and the fact that that kid could do it) not actually secured responsibly. Lets agree that if it were an artwork balanced so the slightest breeze or touch would send it crashing to the ground, that would be irresponsible of the gallery to exhibit. So there is a point where it wouldn't be the patrons fault. Where that point is I don't know. If an adult accidentally bumped it with their hip, it would have also come down. Seems like the "artist" ought to have worked that out, or the gallery had some better way to secure it.

And yes, parents should control their kids. Sometimes they do get away from you though. All it takes is a few seconds of distraction.
 
LongRoadBob said:
There is another point I think. I have just seen the video but...

It seems to me that statue was (by the video and the fact that that kid could do it) not actually secured responsibly. Lets agree that if it were an artwork balanced so the slightest breeze or touch would send it crashing to the ground, that would be irresponsible of the gallery to exhibit. So there is a point where it wouldn't be the patrons fault. Where that point is I don't know. If an adult accidentally bumped it with their hip, it would have also come down. Seems like the "artist" ought to have worked that out, or the gallery had some better way to secure it.

And yes, parents should control their kids. Sometimes they do get away from you though. All it takes is a few seconds of distraction.
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Yeah, I thought it tumbled far too easily and could in fact have caused injury. There is plenty of blame to go around. What if the statue had fallen on the kid injuring him? Who would be primarily at fault? Would some opinions about the incident change? How much fault would lie with the inattentive parent?

Still, I agree the OP's point about people controlling their kids remains valid for at least two reasons. 1. Their own benefit or protection. 2. For the benefit of others and the property of others.
 
BigBadLou said:
I've been saying for decades that people should require a license to reproduce, drive and vote. The biggest factors in the application process would be IQ and common sense.
Click to expand...
When you put it that way it sounds much more benign than "Aristocracy." One man, one vote. Sorry that bothers you.

Nauga,
who is often outvoted but still supports the right to vote
 
I watched the video the day this made the headlines. My first thoughts were

1. The sculpture wasn't secured as it should have been. The venue isn't an innocent bystander.
2. The kid was doing what unsupervised kids do at that age.
3. The mom was oblivious and not doing her job as a parent.
4. The mom didn't appear that she could have cared less after she saw what happened. Then blamed it on the venue.

It's not the kid who deserves punishment. It's his parents.
 
I hate it when young kids run wild in art museums and such. They don't get anything out of it and bother other patrons. Same with restaurants. Again not the kids fault.
 
Gerhardt said:
4. The mom didn't appear that she could have cared less after she saw what happened. Then blamed it on the venue.
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That wasn't the mother (or father for that matter) neither one of them were even in the room. That was confirmed by another KC news report I watched a few days later (see post 23). That woman was just a bystander. Also, even without that follow up report, if you search for "Sarah Goodman" on Facebook you will see her and her family (Leawood, KS). Unless she lost quite a bit of weight in the few months since she posted her Facebook photo, she was not one of the women in the room.

To those who assert there is culpability on the part of those responsible for the display. Did you notice that the kid crawled up on the base to get to the sculpture? Why do we think that both the sculpture and base both wouldn't have tumbled under the eccentric loading of 50#? (The weight of the average 5yo boy)

Yeah, I guess everything could also be bolted to the floor but I really wouldn't expect an art display organizer to protect artwork from being used for a jungle gym.
 
SkyDog58 said:
While I agree that the child being unsupervised was a major error on the part of the parents and that they should pay for any damages, what I wonder about is the value of the sculpture. The article quotes the artist saying:

"I want to be reimbursed for the amount of time that I spent on it and for what I think it is worth" And he says it is worth $132,000.

Well, unless he has a history of similar works selling for that much, it is probably worth far less. A court most likely will have to determine a value which I would not be surprised to see set far lower.
Click to expand...

Yeah, my guess is that it's just as functional now as before the incident.
 
JCranford said:
Wow! “Beat” is a far cry from “smack”. And I don’t recall him saying anything about obscenities. Get off the high horse there hank
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Morgan3820 said:
I was beat, with love, often as a kid. Because I needed it. Works for me. I spanked my daughter early but mot often as she got the message. Now She is wonderful in every way. 9th in her class. Respects all people. But yes corporal punishment moves from one generation to the next because it works. I fully expect my Daughter will spank her children. You raise your children the way you want. Keep your sanctimonious opinions to yourself.
Click to expand...

The secret is consistency. The threat of a spanking is all it takes if the child knows that you will keep your word. If you threaten and threaten and never carry it out until you snap, that's beating.
 
PPC1052 said:
Yeah, my guess is that it's just as functional now as before the incident.
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So---lemme get this straight---

What you're saying is that, if a vandal breaks into your office on April 10th, and destroys your computer, and you don't have a backup, and they catch him, then the only thing that vandal owes you is the cost of the computer because all that time you spent producing your clients' tax returns isn't worth anything?

Got it! :confused:
 
timwinters said:
So---lemme get this straight---

What you're saying is that, if a vandal breaks into your office on April 10th, and destroys your computer, and you don't have a backup, and they catch him, then the only thing that vandal owes you is the cost of the computer because all that time you spent producing your clients' tax returns isn't worth anything?

Got it! :confused:
Click to expand...

Technically, that’s what a court should offer, yes.

It’s on you to have backups of your important files.

Comparing “art” and computer files is probably a bad analogy.

If some judge somewhere gets convinced you should be reimbursed for not buying a $5 USB stick and knowing how to use it, they should be voted out.

Okay maybe $20 for the big one. Ha.
 
timwinters said:
So---lemme get this straight---

What you're saying is that, if a vandal breaks into your office on April 10th, and destroys your computer, and you don't have a backup, and they catch him, then the only thing that vandal owes you is the cost of the computer because all that time you spent producing your clients' tax returns isn't worth anything?

Got it! :confused:
Click to expand...
In the days of film cameras, you'd take the rolls of exposed film, with your once-in-a-lifetime vacation photos, to the drugstore for developing. The fine print on the receipt said if they ruined your photos all they owed you was a new roll of film.
 
Pilawt said:
In the days of film cameras, you'd take the rolls of exposed film, with your once-in-a-lifetime vacation photos, to the drugstore for developing. The fine print on the receipt said if they ruined your photos all they owed you was a new roll of film.
Click to expand...

Didn’t even matter what the fine print said. The law backs that up unless you get a judge who can’t read.
 
timwinters said:
So---lemme get this straight---

What you're saying is that, if a vandal breaks into your office on April 10th, and destroys your computer, and you don't have a backup, and they catch him, then the only thing that vandal owes you is the cost of the computer because all that time you spent producing your clients' tax returns isn't worth anything?

Got it! :confused:
Click to expand...
It's a joke, Tim! I'm just having a laugh. Pointing out the incongruities of life.
 
nauga said:
When you put it that way it sounds much more benign than "Aristocracy." One man, one vote. Sorry that bothers you.

Nauga,
who is often outvoted but still supports the right to vote
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There is no such thing as a "right to vote."

On another note. Why do people need to have large families? Both my parents are the 7th of 9 kids but this was rural Arkansas where children doubled as farm hands. In this day and age of world overpopulation, why do parents have more than two kids? Not judging, just wondering.
 
Timbeck2 said:
There is no such thing as a "right to vote."
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Read the 9th amendment to the Constitution. The Voting Rights Act is also a good review.

Nauga,
unenumerated
 
Before we get off in the weeds about which right to vote we're talking about. I'm talking about presidential elections from which most people think they have a "right" to vote. But the right to vote is not in the US Constitution. There are provisions that prevent states from limiting any voting rights that might be present in state law based on skin color, religion, gender or other protected status. But there's no provision that United States citizens are guaranteed the right to vote in national elections.

You can vote for your favorite color or ice cream flavor any time you like. That would be freedom of speech which is a right indeed.

Tim and can I get a "well I'll be damned!"
 
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RudyP said:
Like everything else, there are no absolutes. My wife is 27 and while our daughter, at 5 months is a little young to be disciplined, we both share more traditional, conservative values and our daughter will not be raised as a snowflake. We are very much on the same page about discipline, respect and good behavior. At this stage it’s mostly making sure she doesn’t disturb other people out in public. When we take her (occasionally) to a restaurant, if she starts crying or making any noise,one of us will immediately take her outside so that we don’t ruin other patrons' dining experience.
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Bravo Rudy!

My son is 3, almost 4 now, and you'd hardly know he was in a restaurant unless you're looking at him. He's been dining out with me and my ex since he was an infant, and we always took him out of the restaurant if he was fussing as a baby. We took him to a fine dining restaurant at Bellagio when he was about 10 weeks old, and patrons stopped by and told us they were surprised there was even a baby in the carrier, he was so quiet. Now, I just need to ask him do we need to go to the bathroom and have a chat? The answer to that is always no, and the behavior he was doing stops. I think I've spanked him maybe 1/2 dozen times in his life..
 
One more thing Mr. Hide before I have to head off for the rock pile. In our current system of government, casting a ballot is a privilege not a right offered to you by the states. So in essence, the states get to decide if you're going to be allowed to vote for the POTUS. Know what? Not one state out of the 50 have allowed you to vote for the POTUS. You're voting for a slate of electors, so we may as well vote for our congress critters and senators and not even bother filling in the bubble for POTUS.

Tim - advocate for the popular vote.
 
I'm late to this party. Looks like someone pulled Tim's ejection handle? Thread popped up in my feed though so I got myself caught up

Both sides of this story exemplify poor behavior and judgment

1.) the artist saying his sculpture is worth $132,000 because that's what he thinks it is worth, well that is completely asinine. Something is "worth" what a buyer is willing to pay. Art can be hard to appraise, but you don't determine something's value by that approach. If, this artist is well know and has a history of his sculptures going for that much, and they were genuinely expecting it to sell for that amount, then there should have been some additional care taken to guard it. Even if it was anchored down it should have at least had something else to keep a safe distance

2.) take care of your children (that doesn't mean carte blanche let them do whatever). So many people make such horrid parents, and are very "hands off" with their children. One of my top 5 pet peeves are sitting in a restaurant and hearing some kid absolutely going bonkers and the parents seem totally oblivious to it.. usually this kid also has an ipad out and about 3 other toys, and a giant mess of food around them too. There's one thing to respect your child's autonomy, but guess what, you are also the adult, and it squarely, 100% your responsibility to ensure your child is raised proper, with respect, etc., and lead by example. The parent, by default, could not have been "closely supervising" her child if she had to run down the hall after hearing a commotion. You should be extra vigilant especially around expensive items.

Anyway, this story tells you everything you need to know about what is wrong with world

PS, when I went to dinner with my folks growing up (going off topic now, sorry) I didn't have a hundred toys with me. I was taught that when you eat with adults you act like an adult. You sit up straight, enjoy the food, and participate in conversation when appropriate. Am I just some kind of freak that I grew up in a household like that?
 
No. Why would anyone do that? Although I apologize to the OP that the thread grew another branch, I feel that there is politics which isn't allowed - rule I support and then again there are civics and government conversations.

Plus - Nauga's avatar creeps me out.
 
Timbeck2 said:
No. Why would anyone do that? Although I apologize to the OP that the thread grew another branch, I feel that there is politics which isn't allowed - rule I support and then again there are civics and government conversations.

Plus - Nauga's avatar creeps me out.
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gddy.gif
 
Also, the following quote:

Many people who saw the video commented that the child needed better parental supervision. But others sympathized with the parents and argued that this was a community center, not a museum where families would be expected to warn their children not to touch anything.
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Families should only be expected to warn their children not to touch anything in museums and not everywhere else?
 
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