Wish I'd had the IR...

[James331]

I agree with you on this totally. My point though is that unless you use IR often for your mission, and by often I mean couple times a month, then those skills will rust fast. Requiring someone to get their IR license but then having them do their standard bounce around the local airstrips for barbecues fun those skills will erode

A while back we had a thread about things we wish we learned in PPL.. my two items were more about powerplant mechanics and inadvertent IMC. A lot of PPL hood work is pretty basic plane stuff.. I think if PPL flights had a requirement for some actual and a higher requirement of time for "hood work" then that would help keep people right side up. You are right, it is the panic that screws people.. and a hood can't replicate that

The other one where I see issues is knowing when to abandon the windscreen and go 100% instruments, lots of folks try to stay visual too long, get all caddywhompis and go to instruments too late.

This one of the reasons I always get my PPL students some cloud time.

 

[Tantalum]

This one of the reasons I always get my PPL students some cloud time.

That's excellent. I had to beg my PPL instructor to take me up for cloud flying during primary training. "No no, you are VFR, this will not help you get your license, it's a waste and will just confuse you" blah blah but they begrudgingly took me on a crummy overcast day in Boston and I got .6 actual. Definitely eye opening when you're in the clouds.. nothing at all like the hood. I only have about 120 hrs since getting my IR (but that's all in the last 12 months) and when I hit the actual you still get a bit of that "this feels weird" sensation and it takes a few moments for that to go away

The other one where I see issues is knowing when to abandon the windscreen and go 100% instruments, lots of folks try to stay visual too long, get all caddywhompis and go to instruments too late.

Yeah, I could see that going south. The person I did my IR with was good about drilling that in. Transitioning to instruments well in advance of the actual stuff

 

[Kritchlow]

IMHO the instrument isn't really about flying, stick and rudder and what not arent nearly that important, it's mostly just procedures and navigation, more like navigating a submarine than flying a airplane, it just happens to be in a plane, if that makes sense.

Personally I think being a good backcountry pilot requires far more skill than being a good IFR pilot, and that's from someone who makes his money flying a good chunk of hard IFR.

WTF is the backcountry? I’ve sort of heard of that from friends flying in the African wilderness deserts, but never in the US (other than Alaska).
Is that when you are VFR but barely out of radar contact with Memphis?

 

[James331]

WTF is the backcountry? I’ve sort of heard of that from friends flying in the African wilderness deserts, but never in the US (other than Alaska).
Is that when you are VFR but barely out of radar contact with Memphis?

That's where ATC has little value and you're operating out of places that don't have names.

 

[Kritchlow]

That's where ATC has little value and you're operating out of places that don't have names.

All good, but tougher than IFR?? I mean by that definition I taught (1986??) in the “back country”.
I personally don’t think that has much meaning here in the lower 48.

 

[James331]

All good, but tougher than IFR?? I mean by that definition I taught (1986??) in the “back country”.
I personally don’t think that has much meaning here in the lower 48.

My airplane doesn't know what state it's in.

Flying a small river in NY is the same as AK or NH or wherever.

Landing on a small island beach on AK or NY or WA, it's all the same.

 

[Kritchlow]

My airplane doesn't know what state it's in.

Flying a small river in NY is the same as AK or NH or wherever.

Landing on a small island beach on AK or NY or WA, it's all the same.

Yeah, but YOU know the difference. To say flying “backcountry” in NY is rough (tougher than hardcore IFR) is laughable IMO. I’d imagine the serious Alaska guys might be rolling on the floor laughing.
Not saying some spots in NY can’t be somewhat quiet, but I wouldn’t say it’s the African bush.

 

[jsstevens]

When do you start your IFR Training? It will make you a better pilot and allow you to fly more missions.

I’ve started it 3 times now.

I’m restarting later this summer. My written expired in February at the same time my most recent instructor left for a regional gig.

John

 

[azure]

Yes, you must stay proficient to fly approaches, holds, use the terminology correct, etc, etc. But I personally feel that entering IMC and keeping your eyeballs on the instruments to 180° and get back into VMC is like learning a bicycle. It's getting used to the lack of visual feedback that keeps you from panicking. That's what the quick IFR section of private training attempts, and fails at, teaching.

I agree with you on that. Much more instrument time, plus recurrent training, is needed to really have what it takes to safely deal with VMC into IMC. I've said many times that all pilots should undergo that, and CFIs should encourage it. Where I stop short is in changing the rules to REQUIRE it. I don't want to see another requirement tacked on, and least of all a requirement for an IFR rating for run of the mill private pilots. Most will never make use of that rating, and for them it's just added expense. And much of the training involves learning, memorizing, and understanding regulations that you really only need to know if you're flying IFR.

But yes, let's see more hood work on BFRs and any time a pilot goes back for recurrent training to brush up his skills. I agree, that could save lives.

 

[mscard88]

Yeah, but YOU know the difference. To say flying “backcountry” in NY is rough (tougher than hardcore IFR) is laughable IMO. I’d imagine the serious Alaska guys might be rolling on the floor laughing.
Not saying some spots in NY can’t be somewhat quiet, but I wouldn’t say it’s the African bush.

But but its James! The baddest back country from NY, tail dragging pilot in all the world! Dontya know!

 

[James331]

Yeah, but YOU know the difference. To say flying “backcountry” in NY is rough (tougher than hardcore IFR) is laughable IMO. I’d imagine the serious Alaska guys might be rolling on the floor laughing.
Not saying some spots in NY can’t be somewhat quiet, but I wouldn’t say it’s the African bush.

Perhaps not very smart AK people, but a person who understwnds the basic logic I stated.

Maybe you or someone else could explain to me the difference between landing on a 500' long sandbar in AK, vs a 500' sandbar in WA, or NY or Canada?

When I go through my POH/AFM I'm NOT seeing any different numbers based on what state the landing or takeoff takes place.

Saying two nearly identical rivers are different because of what side of some legal line in the proverbial sand they are, that's laughable.

Also flying to paved runways in AK or Namibia or something isn't backcountry, landing somewhere where no one initially intended for a plane to land, a random clearing, small river, sand bar, that's what people mean by backcountry, but I think you know that.

But but its James! The baddest back country in NY, tail dragging pilot in all the world!

If stating the obvious for Kritchlow make me the baddest, well god forbid where that leaves everyone else lol

 

[Topper]

Made a flight today that I would never would have attempted without the IR. I actually could have flown this 100% VFR, but that limits your options sometimes.

 

[flyingron]

Often the fatal factor to VFR into VMC is not because the pilot CAN'T fly on instruments and do something (180 or descend or whatever is needed) but they fail to recognize WHEN they need to be looking at the instruments. The tendency for the pilot is to just continue staring out into the murk until they're lose spatial awareness and control.

I remember my first actual IMC at the controls. I was flying along with Paul Bertorelli and we kind of gently eased into lower visibility. Paul says "don't lose it on me" and I realize, oh yeah, fly instruments. I had no problem after that point (OK, we also got icing but Paul dealt with ATC on that leaving me to fly).

 

[Ghery]

I have the IA rating, but am not current. I got the IR because we get an overcast layer on the west side of the state that, once you punch through it, is no longer a factor when traveling across the state. If I had to fly in the clag all the way, I'd drive. Single pilot IFR that long is too much like work (which, being retired, I regard as a four letter word). I can get from Olympia to Pullman in about 5 1/2 hours by car, a bit over 2 hours in the air if I fly myself. Plus 20 minutes to the airport, another 20 minutes to pre-flight and load and then time to get into town from KPUW. Flying is fun, but doesn't really save all that much time.

While having the instrument rating opens more opportunities to fly, it also adds to the list of weather conditions that must be considered in making the fly/don't fly call. VFR is simple - can I make the flight clear of clouds? IFR you have to consider the nature of the weather creating those clouds. Can I fly in them without the plane turning into a large popsicle? Are there likely to be embedded TS in those clouds which could rip the wings off the plane? Things of that nature. It isn't just a simple "now I can fly in the clouds" type of thing.

That said, go for it. It really is fun (up to a point).

 

[Kritchlow]

Perhaps not very smart AK people, but a person who understwnds the basic logic I stated.

Maybe you or someone else could explain to me the difference between landing on a 500' long sandbar in AK, vs a 500' sandbar in WA, or NY or Canada?

When I go through my POH/AFM I'm NOT seeing any different numbers based on what state the landing or takeoff takes place.

Saying two nearly identical rivers are different because of what side of some legal line in the proverbial sand they are, that's laughable.

Also flying to paved runways in AK or Namibia or something isn't backcountry, landing somewhere where no one initially intended for a plane to land, a random clearing, small river, sand bar, that's what people mean by backcountry, but I think you know that.





If stating the obvious for Kritchlow make me the baddest, well god forbid where that leaves everyone else lol

If landing on a sandbar is backcountry flying, so be it. I thought there was a lot more to it, especially because you stated (paraphrasing) that it’s much more intense than hardcore IFR.

 

[arkvet]

Often the fatal factor to VFR into VMC is not because the pilot CAN'T fly on instruments and do something (180 or descend or whatever is needed) but they fail to recognize WHEN they need to be looking at the instruments. The tendency for the pilot is to just continue staring out into the murk until they're lose spatial awareness and control.

I remember my first actual IMC at the controls. I was flying along with Paul Bertorelli and we kind of gently eased into lower visibility. Paul says "don't lose it on me" and I realize, oh yeah, fly instruments. I had no problem after that point (OK, we also got icing but Paul dealt with ATC on that leaving me to fly).

I've found this discussion to be great! Since the beginning of my PPL journey I've taken the approach of trying to identify and eliminate the items that can kill me. For example, fuel. I admit, I tanker fuel around quite often and have a JPI 830 that tells me to the 10th how much I have left, but damn it I'm not running out of fuel. As I near my IFR check ride I have tried to identify those "kill me" items and it just doesn't seem that easy. Sure, task saturation and secondary spatial disorientation seems obvious... but what are the dominos that lead to that? Remember it's often a chain of mistakes rather than a single one.

The above quote by Ron I find helpful. Although I've logged a few hours of actual I did find myself staring at those clouds wondering when I should look down. Donning the foggles doesn't give you any appreciation for the decision to go instruments.

 

[James331]

If landing on a sandbar is backcountry flying, so be it. I thought there was a lot more to it, especially because you stated (paraphrasing) that it’s much more intense than hardcore IFR.

There is more to it, just like there is more to flying IFR than just going through a cloud, the point I made was backcountry doesn't just have to do with what state you're flying in, and it also requires much more thought, it's not as paint by numbers as IFR and is very dynamic. IFR takes skill no doubt, nothing agaist it.

 

[Kritchlow]

There is more to it, just like there is more to flying IFR than just going through a cloud, the point I made was backcountry doesn't just have to do with what state you're flying in, and it also requires much more thought, it's not as paint by numbers as IFR and is very dynamic. IFR takes skill no doubt, nothing agaist it.

I’m sure there is more to it. I have multiple friends that have flown in Africa and have told me the stories. Very interesting.

They may look at backcountry in NY as flying between two Starbucks.

 

[James331]

I’m sure there is more to it. I have multiple friends that have flown in Africa and have told me the stories. Very interesting.

They may look at backcountry in NY as flying between two Starbucks.

Africa is in many ways easier than northern areas with the weather and tree cover, in some DA ways and support it's harder in Africa, but much of the flying places like wilderness air and the others go to are far from landing on a short gravel bar.


Africa

NY

It's really not about the state or country though

 

[Kritchlow]

Africa is in many ways easier than northern areas with the weather and tree cover, in some DA ways and support it's harder in Africa, but much of the flying places like wilderness air and the others go to are far from landing on a short gravel bar.


Africa

NY

It's really not about the state or country though

The stories I’ve heard from Africa made my hair curl. Even the airliners in the flight levels work more like a Unicom frequency, let alone doing an approach to a small airport.... which made more than my hair curl.

 

[Palmpilot]

I have heard taildragger pilots say flying a taildragger makes you a better pilot. I've heard glider pilots say the same thing. I had to think long and hard to determine what a "better pilot" actually is. I came up with a better pilot is one who doesn't crash and die. Personally, I really don't think you need to know how to fly a taildragger or a glider to not crash and die. I really don't think it involves landing right on the centerline, or landing in the minimum distance possible. I do think it has to do with having the judgement to keep away from sticky situations the present few outs. Personally, I think having the IR is going to present one with way more outs than the ability to fly a taildragger or a glider, thus I do think that getting makes you a better pilot.

It might just boost me up to average, but I doubt it.

I think learning any new aviation skills makes you a better pilot, although some probably have more impact than others.

 

[steingar]

I think learning any new aviation skills makes you a better pilot, although some probably have more impact than others.

Just depends on what your definition of “better pilot” entails.

 

[jsstevens]

Just depends on what your definition of “better pilot” entails.

And better pilot (even using your definition of things that keep you from crashing and dying, not a bad definition, by the way) depends on what kind of flying you actually do.

 

[Bill Watson]

I have heard taildragger pilots say flying a taildragger makes you a better pilot. I've heard glider pilots say the same thing. I had to think long and hard to determine what a "better pilot" actually is. I came up with a better pilot is one who doesn't crash and die. Personally, I really don't think you need to know how to fly a taildragger or a glider to not crash and die. I really don't think it involves landing right on the centerline, or landing in the minimum distance possible. I do think it has to do with having the judgement to keep away from sticky situations the present few outs. Personally, I think having the IR is going to present one with way more outs than the ability to fly a taildragger or a glider, thus I do think that getting makes you a better pilot.

It might just boost me up to average, but I doubt it.

They all can and will make you a better pilot. But it doesn't happen with earning the rating, it happens over time in the exercise and honing of those skills.

By the same token, those skills do not enable you to overcome all conditions; there are glider flights that shouldn't be attempted, there are cross wind landings best skipped, and there are weather conditions that should not be challenged. But again the experience of making flights, exercising judgement and evaluating the results makes you a better a pilot, or you will cease to be a pilot.

From what I've seen of the AF Test Pilot School curriculum, they seem to buy into the idea of what makes the best pilots is skill building and experience in a variety of types.

I'll go even further and say that even extensive RC plane flying can make you a better pilot.

Perhaps a 'better pilot' is one who can apply their skills and experience to fly what they are in, go where they want, when they want to go there, and knowing how and when to punt, without crashing and dying.

With all due respect, extensive experience in various light aircraft can make you a better light aircraft pilot. To maintain otherwise is nonsense.

 

[jordane93]

It can help you get out of a jam or put you deeper into a jam.

 

[asicer]

It can help you get out of a jam or put you deeper into a jam.

Or put you in that jam in the first place

One year a trip I wanted to take was MVFR at the terminals and IFR en-route, so I drove. The next year I got my IR and the same trip came up but ice was in the forecast. I suppose the next time the same trip comes up, I'll have a FIKI bird and there will be widespread TS.

 

[iamtheari]

Two stories. Before I finished my instrument rating, I was on the way home one evening and the last 30nm had a thin overcast layer at something like 2000 AGL and it was getting dark. I opted to divert and spend the night. It cost $130 in cab rides (airport out of town at a town big enough to have a cab but small enough and close enough to oil boom country to overcharge for it) plus a hotel room and a night away from home. This would have been a risky VFR flight or a super easy IFR flight.

Yesterday, I flew to a funeral. I went VFR so I could talk to my cousin who rode with me without needing to pay attention to ATC. But about 40nm before arriving, when I was thinking about calling up the Class C approach controller, the rain got heavier and visibility went down. One quick radio call, a 500-foot climb, and an ILS later we were on the ground at our destination thanks to my being instrument rated and current. Otherwise we would have had to land about 75 ground miles short and try to find a ride.

The instrument rating makes flight planning decisions harder to make, not easier. But that’s because it gives you options that you wouldn’t otherwise have, and thus need to evaluate before deciding on a course of action.

 

[denverpilot]

The instrument rating makes flight planning decisions harder to make, not easier. But that’s because it gives you options that you wouldn’t otherwise have, and thus need to evaluate before deciding on a course of action.

This is probably the most important and least mentioned reality about the Instrument ticket.

Great weather? File and go. Nice being “in the system” and it’s very orderly and works well.

Bad weather you are going to be able to legally do things you and your airplane probably shouldn’t.

When you were VFR only, certain very well defined things absolutely shut down flight ops.

There’s still some hard stops in Instrument flying, (known icing in an aircraft not equipped, for example), but it also opens up a lot of grey areas you really have to do more personal risk assessment on.

 

[asicer]

This is probably the most important and least mentioned reality about the Instrument ticket.

Next is probably the difficulty to keep current. VFR? Quick trip to the airport with good enough ceiling/vis, 3 turns in the pattern and you're done in 20 minutes. IFR? Gotta wait for just the right weather or match up your schedule with a safety pilot and then just one of the 6 approaches that you need can take 20 minutes all by itself.

 

[James_Dean]

I was in your shoes 15 years ago.

Man, I could do the mission, but ice. Then you want icing protection. Man, I’m screwed if this engine quits. Then you want a twin or a chute. Man, I want to fly for business, but rules and insurance. Then you want your comm. Man, these piston engines take a lot of work and are unreliable. Then you want a turboprop. Man, it’s tough to top this convection at FL250 and I sure would like to go faster. Then you want a jet.

Anybody want to buy a nice Conquest?

But seriously, get the IR asap. Set personal minimums. Ease into the tough stuff. Keep current. I LOVE breaking out of the clag in the climb to a brilliant sun and forever blue and then reverse it at the end to a low approach.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Anybody want to buy a nice Conquest?

Yes.

Unfortunately, any amount of money I could legitimately offer would be met with either scowls or hysterical laughter...

 

[EdFred]

Yes.

Unfortunately, any amount of money I could legitimately offer would be met with either scowls or hysterical laughter...

And then only offer half of that amount.

 

[Indiana_Pilot]

I never understood why people are against IFR flights in a single engine light aircraft.. I fly all over filing IFR and in IMC in my Cherokee 180.. Call me stupid if you want but I am comfortable and capable of prolonged IFR flight and love challenging approaches.... I have some personal minimums and especially stay away from convective activity and icing though.. I love my IR! I almost prefer flying in IMC over nice weather.. I can't be the only one!

 

[Palmpilot]

I never understood why people are against IFR flights in a single engine light aircraft.. I fly all over filing IFR and in IMC in my Cherokee 180.. Call me stupid if you want but I am comfortable and capable of prolonged IFR flight and love challenging approaches.... I have some personal minimums and especially stay away from convective activity and icing though.. I love my IR! I almost prefer flying in IMC over nice weather.. I can't be the only one!

I think people are worried about being able to see well enough to pick a survivable forced landing spot in the event of an engine failure. People differ on whether the advantages of IFR are worth taking that risk.

 

[iamtheari]

I think people are worried about being able to see well enough to pick a survivable forced landing spot in the event of an engine failure. People differ on whether the advantages of IFR are worth taking that risk.

And that's okay! The best thing about flying GA compared with other modes of transport is that you have a greater degree of control over which risks you personally encounter. When you fly, there aren't any drunk drivers swerving into your lane or parked cars on the side of the dark road. There aren't tailgaters waiting to rear-end you as soon as you hit the brakes to avoid something. There are plenty of risks, like losing an engine in a situation where you do not have an out (mountains, night, or IMC), but you get to choose whether you fly your single-engine plane into those situations. We sometimes get the risk calculus wrong and we sometimes lose bets that we take based on the risk calculus, but the NTSB reports of fatal crashes never begin with "The pilot had no choice."