When does it click?

Sport Pilot said:
Thank you denverpilot for your words of wisdom.
Click to expand...

Bob and Mark also gave them and they have a lot more time in the right seat than I do. I’ve just had good mentors. Demanding instructors who have seen a LOT of students and how not to teach.

I’m just trying to mimic those folks until someday when I look up and realize I’ve passed something even close to the number of students they’ve passed.

They tell me numbers don’t matter. Just do it right and the students will be fine.

And no. I doubt you’re on an accelerated schedule for the certificate, by the way. I had an interesting conversation about that the other day with one of my instructors. He had a student who’s schedule and time mandated a Private rating be done as an accelerated course. He said he did it. Just a few weeks.

Student passed his checkride. And he said he never felt comfortable that student really knew all he needed to know.

He never did another Private accelerated course ever again. He specializes in accelerated courses for advanced ratings today if someone wants to go fast, but he will not do it for the Private rating.

Too many opportunities to not get those building blocks right and not know the foundation isn’t solid under the building, so to speak.

Everything you learn in the first certificate stays with you forever. Sometimes have to be beaten out of you later if they were taught wrong, too.

Good habits and solid teaching up front pays off big time.

Glad you enjoyed today’s flight. That commute to the airport sounds a bit brutal. I want to do more glider ratings and I think the best place around to do it is in Boulder, and that keeps me from doing it. It’s 100 miles one way from my house.
 
If your instructor isn’t milking you, you’re going to almost constantly feel like you suck. He’s going to move on to another skill as soon as you show reasonable proficiency in the last one. Because of that, you’re always going to be uncomfortable.

I’d wager if you think about it, the stuff you did on your first lesson is easier now, even if you still don’t feel you are very good at it. You may still not be an expert in it yet, but now you’re doing it plus thinking about 3 or 4 other things at the same time that you weren’t before.
 
Sport Pilot said:
My second lesson was power on power off stalls, steep turns, 360 degree turn without losing altitude, crab into the wind following a highway, and he said I landed by myself (a little hard and flat).
Click to expand...
Seems like a pretty aggressive schedule. My flight 2 was climbs descents turns and maybe a power off stall demonstration. Saturation is normal but you could ask him to slow down a bit.
 
Yes, all the maneuvers currently exhibited last night were built on my first and second flights. Bank turns, descents, stalls, and everything else is gradually building up for the next move. I spent approximately 35 minutes doing 5 touch and go’s.

I really need to armchair this weekend. I am going to take a break Fri Sat Sun to work on my notes, armchair flying, watch YouTube, and anything else I can do to facilitate learning.

Thank you guys so much for your input. When I entertained the idea of being a pilot, the POA forum was mentioned as a great resource. That was an understatement. :)

How do you quote on here? Thanks.
 
Sport Pilot said:
Yes, all the maneuvers currently exhibited last night were built on my first and second flights. Bank turns, descents, stalls, and everything else is gradually building up for the next move. I spent approximately 35 minutes doing 5 touch and go’s.

I really need to armchair this weekend. I am going to take a break Fri Sat Sun to work on my notes, armchair flying, watch YouTube, and anything else I can do to facilitate learning.

Thank you guys so much for your input. When I entertained the idea of being a pilot, the POA forum was mentioned as a great resource. That was an understatement. :)

How do you quote on here? Thanks.
Click to expand...
Forget reading, armchair flying, YouTube. If you want to learn to fly, go fly.
 
Yes, I understand. But my CFI gave me reading assignments that needs to completed prior to my next flight.
 
Sport Pilot said:
I’ve studied, currently studying, and flying. Today will be my third flight.

When I get in the air, it’s like I forget everything.

Discouraged...:(
Click to expand...
It feels that way at first for everyone (I think...at least it did for me)...I learned to fly over 20 years ago, but one thing I remember was my instructor seemed to always be taking the plane from me "in a panic", until one day things clicked and he was never taking the plane from me. I couldn't fathom remembering now how long that took, but it was more than 4 lessons I'm sure.
 
Pilots are forever students, and eventually most are instructors (and all instructors are students). Its a gradual process and sometimes you will take a step back. Stick with it, you will get it.
 
denverpilot said:
I’m in full agreement with Bob, as you can see, about building blocks. I left off “the instructor is doing it wrong” because I can’t tell from here. But I have suspicions.

One of our local DPEs is on the warpath about this with CFI candidates when they’re consulting with him about this. (And they’d better do it on the checkride or they’re in danger of not passing and also they’re going to tick him off. Seriously tick him off.)

His favorite question for CFI candidates right now is: “Describe to me Flight Lesson Number One. You’re already sitting at the hold short line and you helped them taxi and get through the run up and all the radio calls. You’re cleared for takeoff.”

If the CFI heads straight for “I’m going to let the student make the first takeoff.” They’re in trouble.

“And how exactly do they know all the things they need to do to make a first takeoff?”

You say instead, “I’m going to have the student handle holding the runway centerline with their feet since they just learned the importance of their feet taxiing over here. They also already know where the brakes are and I’ll make sure their feet are on the floor. I’ll handle the yoke and stay with them on rudder and we’re leaving the pattern to go work on basics.”

You’re off on the right foot.

Guess what you can teach on the way to the practice area? Constant airspeed climbs. And constant airspeed level flight.

Hmmm. Look at that.

Building blocks. Aircraft control. First. BEFORE pattern work.

What does THIS flight control do? All by itself. Nothing else. Okay now THIS one.

Primacy of learning is a BIG deal. Tossing someone into pattern work who hasn’t even played with SINGLE flight controls in the practice area, is flat out stupid.

We instructors can’t forget students know NOTHING at first. Or they even “know” things that aren’t true. Like cross over from their cars. You know what? An airplane in flight will not go out of control or crash into a ditch if they just LET GO of the yoke. Their car will if they let go of the steering wheel. SHOW them. This is DIFFERENT than your car. (Especially in an airplane with a yoke. Sticks, peoples don’t attribute to cars as readily.)

Primacy and building blocks are why Bob went straight to saying “abused”. You can NOT do pattern work until you know how the controls work and build basic maneuvers. It’s asking too much of the student.
Click to expand...
i understand not throwing people to the wolves and using building blocks. However i take the opposite approach they do it all from flight 1 except some radio calls. Ive soloed 14 people since ive became a cfi 2 months ago longest solo was at 13.5 hours a few soloed on lesson 5. My 3 ppl checkrides ive got all their dual requirements out of the way xc and night sub 20 hours. I also do maybe 5 hours of ground total through their training. Not saying my way is right i do have the advantage of having mostly young people that want to fly but for them it works. Drill and kill and doing ground in the air seems to be working for me. I feel like i could take any halfway motivated student and get them to a checkride at 40 hours in 3 or 4 weeks. I might change my tune when i get an older student who doesnt fly much though.
 
falconkidding said:
i understand not throwing people to the wolves and using building blocks. However i take the opposite approach they do it all from flight 1 except some radio calls. Ive soloed 14 people since ive became a cfi 2 months ago longest solo was at 13.5 hours a few soloed on lesson 5. My 3 ppl checkrides ive got all their dual requirements out of the way xc and night sub 20 hours. I also do maybe 5 hours of ground total through their training. Not saying my way is right i do have the advantage of having mostly young people that want to fly but for them it works. Drill and kill and doing ground in the air seems to be working for me. I feel like i could take any halfway motivated student and get them to a checkride at 40 hours in 3 or 4 weeks. I might change my tune when i get an older student who doesnt fly much though.
Click to expand...

It depends a lot on the student and their motivation. Some students want to be thrown in the deep end and told to swim. It’s not effective for many older students who want to understand.

It can also leave huge knowledge gaps where they decide to survive it, they’ll just paint by numbers and not really understand what they’re doing.

And many students who don’t care about understanding will simply follow instructions and learn by rote, and then have an “ah-ha” moment 40-50 hours AFTER the checkride is long over with.

One instructor friend uses building blocks but starts first flight with demos of everything required on the ride for highly motivated students who are concerned its all “too much to learn”. They see demos of everything in a little over an hour as more of an “intro flight” than a lesson and relax about it, because they see it’s not all that hard. (Or so they think with a smiling instructor showing them all of it with a grin who could do it all in his sleep. Ha!)

In the end, there’s a time for both bulking blocks and drill and kill. Judgement about where the student is in their head, life, and future flying plans all factors in to what method is going to get the best result in creating a pilot in command.
 
Sport Pilot said:
I live near Champaign Illinois and drive to Morris and Newark Illinois (close to Midway and O’Hare). I am studying Sport So the closest locations that offer it are St. Louis and Chicago. It is quite an experience to see 747 flying overhead heading to Chicago O’Hare. I often wonder what the pilots of those airliners think of me as I scoot across the sky.

I have a five hour round trip for training. I suppose this shows my motivation (or lack of critical thinking).

What I am finding I have difficulty with is breaking everything down into simpler formulas. Such as when your on the downwind, you need to lower this and raise this, look for this and turn this off...oh, your on base so now you need this, turn this off, and flip this switch...ok? Got it? o_O

I’m just going to flow with it.
Click to expand...
Is there a reason you're doing SP instead of Private? SP training availability, as you've discovered, is pretty rare. And if you don't buy a LS you may find it's impractical to rent once you have your cert.
 
Last edited:
Sport Pilot said:
The SP fits my needs.
Click to expand...
As long as you're not doing it because its faster, cheaper, easier. I started out thinking i'd get SP but when I found there were no such rentals in my area, went PP, in hindsight, I can see the arguments for going PP, there isn't that much more training involved even though the hourly requirements might make it seem so. There are also good reasons to stick to SP, medical ones. So, hopefully you have good reasons, seems like you've probably done your research.
 
Wow, your CFI looks so much like my previous CFI. Can you share his name? If u don't want to put it out on public forum, just tell me, are his initials A.R, used to live/work in CA?
 
Ronbonjovi said:
Still a student pilot here. I have 41 flights, 50 hours, and 210 landings. There are still things that have not clicked for me. It is a gradual process and do not let it discourage you. We all learn at different paces. I was so worried about soloing early and finishing my PPL right at 40 hours, but then I just had to realize none of that matters and work at my own pace.
Click to expand...
I'm the exact same. 50 hours and a couple hundred landings and I'll have days I can't land the plane for nothing. Keep plugging along, it comes.
 
Sport Pilot said:
...
How do you quote on here? Thanks.
Click to expand...

While reading the post you want to quote, look over there .....-> far right corner, click "+Quote".
Then scroll down to the bottom and click the box in the lower left corner that says "Insert Quotes"
In the typing box, go below the quoted text and include your comments, then click 'Post Reply' in the lower right hand side.

Screen Shot 2018-05-22 at 7.45.53 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-05-22 at 7.46.33 AM.png

To paraphrase DenverPilot, "you've just quoted a post!" (Building block).
Now, notice the +Quote link has a plus sign? It's a multi-quote! :)
Click message(s) you want to include, and they'll stack up to include in your reply (more building blocks)!
Edit to remove stuff you don't want to include, being mindful of the beginning and ending quote controls included in the square brackets (html-like stuff).
 
Last edited:
jaybee said:
Absolute worst advice ever, congrats.
Click to expand...
3rd flight and he's discouraged he's not progressing enough? No, it was good advice in context IMO. Not flying for weeks on end and watching youtube or reading isn't going to push past that particular problem.
 
My studying is reading the Sport Maneuver chapters and then using Pilot Handbook and FAR for more precise and detailed information. For follow up, I watch YouTube videos and ask questions here. I live 2 1/2 hours away from airport, so I fly twice a week.

Let there be no mistake, I am doing the absolute best I can do in this Aviation arena.
 
Sport Pilot said:
My studying is reading the Sport Maneuver chapters and then using Pilot Handbook and FAR for more precise and detailed information. For follow up, I watch YouTube videos and ask questions here. I live 2 1/2 hours away from airport, so I fly twice a week.

Let there be no mistake, I am doing the absolute best I can do in this Aviation arena.
Click to expand...

Took a similar route, only flying a couple days a week around my full time job. Nothing wrong with doing the absolute best you can but it sounds like you are letting it overwhelm you. Relax. Eating an elephant starts with one bite. :)

As long as the studying is enjoyable keep doing it along with everything else. The more you are around the material the more you will adsorb. It just takes time to eat an elephant.
 
Took a similar route, only flying a couple days a week around my full time job. Nothing wrong with doing the absolute best you can but it sounds like you are letting it overwhelm you. Relax. Eating an elephant starts with one bite. :)

As long as the studying is enjoyable keep doing it along with everything else. The more you are around the material the more you will adsorb. It just takes time to eat an elephant.
Click to expand...

You are so right. Enjoy the ride and not the destination. I suppose I won’t be flying as much when I get the paper anyway.
 
By the way, if it's any consolation to you, it never "clicked" for me. My landings just gradually improved and improved. There was no epiphany, no "Eureka!", no flash of insight. Just agonizingly slow progress, but I got there.
 
Just flew 1.4 in the Jabiru. Steep 45 degrees turns, radio calls, and pattern work.

I’m getting there. :)
 

Attachments

  • 3F8F67D8-060C-4522-840B-364C258F8459.jpeg
    3F8F67D8-060C-4522-840B-364C258F8459.jpeg
    167.1 KB · Views: 30
For some, the bulb may glow dim, but it never clicks to full bright.
 
Its different for everybody as to when it clicks. Don't fall into the trap of comparing how fast you pick up the basics with how others did. Been flying and instructing for over 40 years. Still learn something from every single flight, and anyone who tells you they don't is lying. Just enjoy and keep working at it.
 
Its different for everybody as to when it clicks. Don't fall into the trap of comparing how fast you pick up the basics with how others did. Been flying and instructing for over 40 years. Still learn something from every single flight, and anyone who tells you they don't is lying. Just enjoy and keep working at it.
Click to expand...
^ Yes!
 
Man I felt just like you when I started. 3rd flight in nothing felt natural about being in the plane. I felt like I hadn't retained anything I had read or practiced, but in truth I had. It got better fast, I would say by the 6th flight I wasn't feeling so awkward, and maybe for the first time I looked around and noticed how beautiful it was. I solo'd last Saturday, about 20 hours into training and 79 landings done in the past 2 and a half weeks. After one of those early flights I admitted to my instructor how overwhelmed I was feeling and how insurmountable learning all of this seemed. She gave me the best advice I have received so far. She said stop staring up the steps, just step up the stairs, meaning to just take each lesson as it comes and not worry about everything I don't know. After that I started to take some pressure off of myself and started enjoying each lesson a little more. I once again now find myself getting that overwhelmed feeling as I start to figure out flight plans and the E6B, but it's coming to me, slowly but surely. Stick with it, don't quit and report back when you have that first really fun lesson, they are coming your way.
 
One of the biggest traps is comparing how many hours it takes to solo, or to get your license. The FAA is always adding requirements to training, and comparing a current student with someone who got their license 40 years ago is comparing apples to oranges. Also depends on where you get your training. People who train based out of a busy, congested urban airport in class C or D, or under the shelf of class B.... can easily burn 1/2 hour or much more Hobbs time just taxiing for take-off, waiting to be #5 for takeoff or flying out to the practice area for each lesson, while someone who trains out of a quiet non-towered airport can quickly taxi out take off and do their high work practically right over the field. I used to instruct out of KMKC, Downtown Kansas City, and it was generally a 15-20 nm distance out to the practice area, also depending on winds and airport traffic it could be 15 to 20 minutes from startup until cleared for take off. Each flight lesson had nearly 1 hour of 'overhead' time where we were not practicing maneuvers. Students got really good at taxiing. Those are just examples, there are a lot more reasons that it may take you more hours to accomplish your milestones. That doesn't make you a better or worse pilot by any measure.
 
Last edited:
Half Fast said:
By the way, if it's any consolation to you, it never "clicked" for me. My landings just gradually improved and improved. There was no epiphany, no "Eureka!", no flash of insight. Just agonizingly slow progress, but I got there.
Click to expand...

I'm 15hrs in, and after my first solo flights and relatively nice landings (no bounces) and radio work, I hopped in for some short field work.... man, then suddenly all my landings sucked, bounces, flats... you name it, and with a x-wind component in a congested pattern at a class D so had to juggle that radio work, extended downwinds, offset takeoffs (something I never done before) and suddenly I feel like I suck big time.
However, I think you have to be persistent and believe you can do it. That's what motivates me to continue. My CFI is also very nice and points out that it's normal to feel overwhelmed sometimes when a new concept is introduced and the workload was higher during that day. So we have to know that it's ok to struggle a little and sometimes progress may take a little longer.
Myself at least, I expect to repeat those short field work a couple more times until I nail it. :) Then on to x-country!
 
Thanks everyone. I have 10 hours Hobbs time now. Things are slowly coming together. Two flights ago, I told my CFI that I felt overwhelmed with all the studying and flight maneuvers and formulas. He said that our next flight, we would just do a short cross country trip, just him and I, and fly to another airport. It was extremely relaxing, no pressure, and a nice ride.

When we arrived back at our home airport, my CFI asked how it was. I told him it was very relaxing. He then stated, “You flew the plane entirely by yourself, you took off by yourself, you landed by yourself”. It was at that point I realized that I was learning but didn’t know it.
 
Cool. I'm 150 hours in. It's starting to feel like maybe I kinda know what I'm doing. But the statistics tell me not to get cocky.
 
I'm ~40hrs in at a Major Class C airport in SoCal, taking my checkride soon. Airspace is very busy, and we have to deal with LAX Class B as well. It was VERY overwhelming in the beginning, but I'm glad I went this route. The #1 thing that helped me was to buy a Y cable and record the cockpit audio for each lesson. Then I'd go back and listen to the recording 2-3 times before my next lesson.

This really helped me get comfortable with the radios in the busy airspace. But more importantly, you would be amazed how much your CFI says that you literally don't hear while you're trying to manage learning. Listening to the lesson, hearing my mistakes, the solutions and things I totally missed really helped me get the most for my money. Worth every penny of the $50 for the cable.
 
Listening to the lesson, hearing my mistakes, the solutions and things I totally missed really helped me get the most for my money. Worth every penny of the $50 for the cable.
Click to expand...

Please tell me more about this cable. I would also like to record the headset transmissions. What are all the items I need to get this done?
 
I understand being discouraged. My first flight instructor was one of the old school guys, he yelled at me when I got stuff wrong, yanked the controls out of my hands, cussed me out and laughed at me when I said that I wanted to become a flight instructor. I didn't solo exceptionally fast, and actually had to put a halt on my flight training for a while. That was 50 years ago. Today I sit here with 2 ATP ratings, ALL fixed wing and rotorcraft pilot ratings and am a gold seal instructor with all fixed wing and rotorcraft ratings on my instructor ticket. I have trained many students who went on to become flight instructors, airline captains, decorated military pilots, medical and law enforcement pilots and was the CFI of the year in my FSDO. All you have to do is love doing it and stick with it and always be willing to learn from every situation.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top