It’s close to time...

denverpilot · Jun 10, 2018

I flew the flight today alternating between Garmin Pilot and ForeFlight. Mostly Garmin Pilot.

Time for two major things for me it looks like.

Transition to GP as primary. ForeFlight for the first time ever really added no specific extra value to the flight planning or in-flight experience. It looks a little nicer but with practice getting around in a different UI, everything was there in GP and in my personal airplane with the Flightstream 510, if pressed, I’d only pay for one. And it would be GP for Concierge to update the panel avionics.

As a CFI, I’ll keep both. Students will want ForeFlight and that’s not going to change. But ForeFlight would be gone if all I flew was my own airplane. Nothing worth staying for at the higher price for Pro because I won’t go without georeferenced approach plates anymore. Way too useful. But GP has that and it’s fine.

WingX truly ain’t that bad either. Especially for free as a CFI. It’ll stay in the stable as long as it’s free to me, and I’ll keep up on not being rusty on it, but it’s not my “go to” by any stretch of the imagination. It’s good to know for Android fans and students who don’t do the Apple ecosystem.

The second major thing is that all of this bloatware is just too damn slow to respond now on the Mini. And that’s killin’ me. Apple and their damn larger tablets — the only thing Cook knows how to do is make bigger devices — is damned annoying. But the processor and RAM is too low on the Mini now. Touch screen response time is measurable now in seconds and usually more than five to ten to switch pages. It sucks.

GP and ForeFlight are just about tied in this regard ever since the latest release of ForeFlight. It’s a serious resource pig. Even if you turn things off.

I suspect the background processing of data from the Flightstream adds to this as well. It might feel “almost fast enough” if it weren’t for that, but it’s a handicap that both pieces of software do and have to deal with, so it’s not a surprise it slows both equally.

Had one freeze in GP today. That’s something I haven’t seen in FF for a while now but have seen. Restart of the app fixed it and it recovered gracefully so no major complaints there.

But for me, it’s just about the end of the mini. Which is sad. I like my mount for it and the size. A lot. But ten second waits for screen changes isn’t going to cut it in flight. In either application.

Not going to hold out any hope that any modern software engineers will do the work necessary to up efficiency in their code by any considerable measure. Not going to happen. They don’t know how.

Sooooo... I guess I’m iPad shopping and maybe Android tablet shopping as well, to do some serious comparisons. Especially with GP.

ForeFlight is on the bubble and WingX only hangs on my devices because it’s free to me.

BrianNC · Jun 10, 2018

As far as GP on an iPad vs an Android tablet it's my understanding that Garmin updates the iOS version with new features before they do the Garmin. I could be wrong.

I use the 10" iPad Pro and really like it. I have to use it on my knee though. Still looking for a mounting solution in the 172 for it. Even though I don't have a mini it's bummed me they aren't updating it because I did want one to put on the yoke.

denverpilot · Jun 10, 2018

BrianNC said:
As far as GP on an iPad vs an Android tablet it's my understanding that Garmin updates the iOS version with new features before they do the Garmin. I could be wrong.
.

Think you’re right. That’s why I want side by side comparison hardware after this tech buying cycle completes in my personal budget.

Hank S · Jun 10, 2018

To get GPS on an ipad, you'll need either a cellular model (whether you activate it or not; the hardware isn't in the wifi-only models) or a USB antenna to plug in (bad elf or the like). With a Samsung tablet, all of them have GPS, even the ipad-mini-sized Galaxy Tab A that I'm using right now, the wifi-only model.

Being a CB, I use the free Avare for preflight planning and geo-referenced approach plates. But I don't like using a tablet for sectionals, there is far too much zooming in and out and scrolling around, when I can just move one fold on a sectional. Going to the other side is slightly more complicated, but not difficult.

So when I remember to take it with me, and it's not in the baggage compartment, I just lay it in my lap. For landing, its generally on the floor behind the right front seat. Surely no one looks at a tablet in the pattern, much less on final?

GRG55 · Jun 10, 2018

Hank S said:
...Surely no one looks at a tablet in the pattern, much less on final?

At pattern height I'm low enough to get a good cell signal again, so I am usually texting instead of staring at the iPad on final.

Hank S · Jun 10, 2018

GRG55 said:
At pattern height I'm low enough to get a good cell signal again, so I am usually texting instead of staring at the iPad on final.

I'm impressed!! Eyes off the TV while it's still showing something.

eman1200 · Jun 10, 2018

DP I just picked up a relatively cheap Samsung galaxy tab A since my old google nexus 7 slowed down quite a bit. no complaints at all. would have preferred an ipad but anything bigger than the mini is too big for me and also, well, probably just the end for the mini.

Scrabo · Jun 10, 2018

WingX is a lot less bloated than most and runs well on an mini 4, when you want eye candy there is a price to pay in terms of performance and they usually require the latest iOS major version -1

IOS- now that’s bloatware

Sundancer · Jun 10, 2018

Hank S said:
To get GPS on an ipad, you'll need either a cellular model (whether you activate it or not; the hardware isn't in the wifi-only models) or a USB antenna to plug in (bad elf or the like). With a Samsung tablet, all of them have GPS, even the ipad-mini-sized Galaxy Tab A that I'm using right now, the wifi-only model.

Being a CB, I use the free Avare for preflight planning and geo-referenced approach plates. But I don't like using a tablet for sectionals, there is far too much zooming in and out and scrolling around, when I can just move one fold on a sectional. Going to the other side is slightly more complicated, but not difficult.

So when I remember to take it with me, and it's not in the baggage compartment, I just lay it in my lap. For landing, its generally on the floor behind the right front seat. Surely no one looks at a tablet in the pattern, much less on final?

I have my iPad in a "hard case" (Griffin), and the back is rubber-like; I've found it'll "stick" to my aluminum knee board, and not shift around. Maybe look at a Dual GPS to pair with FF/iPad? It's Bluetooth, so there isn't a need to physically plug a device in to the iPad - nothing to snag or break off.

rtk11 · Jun 10, 2018

BrianNC said:
Still looking for a mounting solution in the 172 for it. Even though I don't have a mini it's bummed me they aren't updating it because I did want one to put on the yoke.

+1 on the iPad Pro. Really like mine.

I hated to move away from the IPad Mini 2 I had, but it was just unusable. Just to slow. But the form factor was just about right for most of what I needed. Pity.

I just ordered the X-Naut mount for my iPad Pro. I’ve had my Mini overheat in the cockpit and reset (at an incredibly critical time where I needed it) which put the nail in the coffin for its fate. The iPad Pro hasn’t experienced this overheating, but since I have a bubble canopy, I’m going to do whatever it takes to ward off overheating.

sarangan · Jun 11, 2018

denverpilot said:
I flew the flight today alternating between Garmin Pilot and ForeFlight. Mostly Garmin Pilot.

Time for two major things for me it looks like.

Transition to GP as primary. ForeFlight for the first time ever really added no specific extra value to the flight planning or in-flight experience. It looks a little nicer but with practice getting around in a different UI, everything was there in GP and in my personal airplane with the Flightstream 510, if pressed, I’d only pay for one. And it would be GP for Concierge to update the panel avionics.

As a CFI, I’ll keep both. Students will want ForeFlight and that’s not going to change. But ForeFlight would be gone if all I flew was my own airplane. Nothing worth staying for at the higher price for Pro because I won’t go without georeferenced approach plates anymore. Way too useful. But GP has that and it’s fine.

WingX truly ain’t that bad either. Especially for free as a CFI. It’ll stay in the stable as long as it’s free to me, and I’ll keep up on not being rusty on it, but it’s not my “go to” by any stretch of the imagination. It’s good to know for Android fans and students who don’t do the Apple ecosystem.

The second major thing is that all of this bloatware is just too damn slow to respond now on the Mini. And that’s killin’ me. Apple and their damn larger tablets — the only thing Cook knows how to do is make bigger devices — is damned annoying. But the processor and RAM is too low on the Mini now. Touch screen response time is measurable now in seconds and usually more than five to ten to switch pages. It sucks.

GP and ForeFlight are just about tied in this regard ever since the latest release of ForeFlight. It’s a serious resource pig. Even if you turn things off.

I suspect the background processing of data from the Flightstream adds to this as well. It might feel “almost fast enough” if it weren’t for that, but it’s a handicap that both pieces of software do and have to deal with, so it’s not a surprise it slows both equally.

Had one freeze in GP today. That’s something I haven’t seen in FF for a while now but have seen. Restart of the app fixed it and it recovered gracefully so no major complaints there.

But for me, it’s just about the end of the mini. Which is sad. I like my mount for it and the size. A lot. But ten second waits for screen changes isn’t going to cut it in flight. In either application.

Not going to hold out any hope that any modern software engineers will do the work necessary to up efficiency in their code by any considerable measure. Not going to happen. They don’t know how.

Sooooo... I guess I’m iPad shopping and maybe Android tablet shopping as well, to do some serious comparisons. Especially with GP.

ForeFlight is on the bubble and WingX only hangs on my devices because it’s free to me.

I just started using GP on a Samsung Galaxy Tab A. Within a couple of weeks I've already run into a few snags. I had to uninstall and reinstall to get past a few bugs. I've also had it freeze up and crash. I was considering using the notepad feature for writing down clearances, but that would be a problem if the app freezes.

denverpilot · Jun 11, 2018

sarangan said:
I just started using GP on a Samsung Galaxy Tab A. Within a couple of weeks I've already run into a few snags. I had to uninstall and reinstall to get past a few bugs. I've also had it freeze up and crash. I was considering using the notepad feature for writing down clearances, but that would be a problem if the app freezes.

I think you mentioned the reinstall in another thread and I was watching. Stuff isn’t as stable on Android “generally” and the tablets are all over the place on price and features.

But I’m still in “time to at least try it” mode. I was hoping the apps would be a LITTLE further along on Android by now but probably one more round of Crapple (Cook’s Apple) purchasing. Sigh.

Other than my Mac Minis (mid-2011, the last i7 ones that were still reasonably upgradable and are doing just fine with full RAM and SSDs in them, thank you very much, no thanks to Apple), I am definitely on the “I want Cook’s Apple out of my life” mode also, considering where he’s taken the tech. They’re not innovators and they’re overpriced for what they are now.

Unfortunately Amazon killed the Android tablet market by subsidizing them for media consumption — the crippled Fire devices. The Android tablet market can’t compete with those on the mass marketing user usage level so they’re stagnant.

Not that the iPad isn’t stagnant too. Oooh a “pencil”, and giant sized ones that don’t meet my mission anymore for a tablet.

denverpilot · Jun 11, 2018

Uggggghnnnngggh...

Just looking at "what ipad"... Apple only puts the A10X in the "pro" of course, so not only is it TWICE as fast (in benchmarking tests) as the iPad, and four times faster than any Mini, it's also pushing the underside of $800 for a REFURB...

Paying $800 to replace a mobile device that's only used for a few specific jobs, and that's only a few years old, is just infuriating... but I know better than to buy the iPad and the slower processor in the bloatware world of Crapple software and Foreflight...

https://browser.geekbench.com/ios-benchmarks

Lordy, no wonder the mini is getting slow. I probably don't want to know what the power draw is on these monsters when they're running a heavy app like Foreflight or Garmin Pilot, do I? LOL... probably producing more heat than my first ten personal computers combined, just hammering the SoC for no good reason, and keeping that ridiculous display fed with updates and backlighting...

Anybody using the giant ridiculous X-Grip (love it with the Mini) https://www.rammount.com/part/RAM-HOL-UN9U , or is these things so fat, I should go to this: https://www.rammount.com/part/RAM-HOL-TABL8U

I really don't want a "mobile" device this size falling out of the holder on to my arm/wrist where it's mounted on the left side, but I do already have the huge double suction cup mount, which hangs on when one of them lets loose with a mini, but will probably drop the entire contraption on my wrist, breaking it, in turbulence, with one of these stupid giant iPads.

LOL... I'm totally annoyed by this whole process. UPDATE THE DAMN MINI APPLE! Jerks...

mscard88 · Jun 11, 2018

Cook has been after Nate for some time. Tonight he celebrates!

denverpilot · Jun 11, 2018

mscard88 said:
Cook has been after Nate for some time. Tonight he celebrates!

View attachment 64000

LOL... he's not after me, just my money. I don't want to give him any of it, but ForeFlight and other apps are stuck on the iOS platform... not that I think they'd do a good job of porting it to Android...

Oh lawd... that would be a disaster bigger than paying almost $1000 for a stupid tablet...

Sinistar · Jun 11, 2018

Hey Nate,

We just recently picked up a iPad Mini 4 to use with Garmin Pilot. Quite a letdown compared to our Galaxy Tab S2 Pro running Garmin Pilot

I will list pros/cons unique to our little test.

iPad Mini 4 Pros:
- Slightly thinner
- Renders SynVis smoother (due to native objective-C code vs Java byte code)
- GP Flight Profiles available on iOS version (but not exactly easy to find)
- Gyronimo W&B App (only on iOS - absolutely love this for W&B, etc.)

iPad Mini 4 Cons:
- No Built-In GPS across all models)
- Screen repeatedly locks going from SynViz to Map screen
- Lack of screen recorder options (Apple you media gods - why?)
- Screen Brightness (my wife and I both give a solid advantage to the Android on all screens)
- Android battery seems to last a bit longer
- On the same airport building's wifi router all Androids can login, the new iPad Mini 4 could not even using the defaults on the bottom of the router which also work for the Androids.

...the iPad mini immediately became backup. If I want to screen record SynViz or a moving map I will probably just turn it on at the same time since the GDL39-3D can talk to more than one. The iPad mini 4 would be good for night flight I suppose. Otherwise I am complete underwhelmed. I thought the mini 4 would be a lot faster...but its just a little faster and faster in areas that don't matter nearly that much.

I am guessing the bigger iPad's have more CPU power but there is no way were going past 8" for a tablet in the cockpit.

I think you are making the right choice Nate. Garmin Pilot on a later model Android tablet has turned into a pretty nice combo.

Sinistar · Jun 11, 2018

Oh yeah, a couple of items that are actually better on the Android GP vis iPad GP.

When you have ADSB wx, on the Android version of GP you can show from 1...N station values. For example, I like to show the wind barb, pressure and ceilings. When we got the iPad Mini 4 and tried GP I noticed I could only show 1 station value...friggin' boo

Also, on Garmin Pilot it shows several data values above the map. On Garmin Pilot you can configure it to show more than will fit and you just swipe them left/right. I usually keep lat/long just off the screen to the right. I figure in a emergency I could swipe over and write them down or read them off. On the iPad version, no option to show more and swipe (that I can find anyway).

If they could bring int the Flight Profile feature into the Android version and then do a little optimizing I think it would be perfect. I wish I would have bought whatever the fastest Android 8" tablet is vs the iPad mini 4.

The screen brightness/contrast difference between the mini 4 and Android was so obvious my wife won't even use the iPad mini 4 in the airplane when in our panel mount.

BrianNC · Jun 11, 2018

denverpilot said:
LOL... he's not after me, just my money.

And apparently your mind.

denverpilot · Jun 11, 2018

Thanks for the info @Sinistar ... here's some thoughts/questions...

Sinistar said:
We just recently picked up a iPad Mini 4 to use with Garmin Pilot. Quite a letdown compared to our Galaxy Tab S2 Pro running Garmin Pilot I will list pros/cons unique to our little test.

First question right there... looking at this page, where's the "pro" version of the Galaxy Tab S2?

https://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/tablets/all-tablets/s/galaxy_tab_s/_/n-10+11+hv1rq+zq2js/

Or is "Pro" just a mistype?

Sinistar said:
iPad Mini 4 Pros:
- Slightly thinner

Definitely don't care.

Sinistar said:
- Renders SynVis smoother (due to native objective-C code vs Java byte code)

Bah, Java... ugh... okay... survivable... I don't use SynVis much.

Sinistar said:
- GP Flight Profiles available on iOS version (but not exactly easy to find)

Don't care... I know how to select altitudes and fuel burns...

Sinistar said:
- Gyronimo W&B App (only on iOS - absolutely love this for W&B, etc.)

Never used it, so probably a don't care. Does the GP W&B that's in the iPad version work on Android?

[

Sinistar said:
iPad Mini 4 Cons:
- No Built-In GPS across all models)

Agreed. Stupid in this day and age to tie it to the cellular chipset. What's a combo GPS/GLONASS chip run in bulk these days? $1?

Sinistar said:
- Screen repeatedly locks going from SynViz to Map screen

Interesting.

Sinistar said:
- Lack of screen recorder options (Apple you media gods - why?)

Don't care... but interesting point.

Sinistar said:
- Screen Brightness (my wife and I both give a solid advantage to the Android on all screens)

All the Samsungs appear to have AMOLED which is going to whip the pants off of anything else for brightness and contrast at a slight cost of color accuracy, but for a mobile device used outdoors/in the sun... Apple is stupid not to have them by now.

Sinistar said:
- Android battery seems to last a bit longer

That's REALLY interesting. Usually Android is a battery hog.

Sinistar said:
- On the same airport building's wifi router all Androids can login, the new iPad Mini 4 could not even using the defaults on the bottom of the router which also work for the Androids.

Hmm, sounds like a different problem I'm aware of, could go both ways on that, but most "consumer" wifi devices cheap airport terminal buildings and FBOs are using SHOULD be able to handle both.

Sinistar said:
...the iPad mini immediately became backup. If I want to screen record SynViz or a moving map I will probably just turn it on at the same time since the GDL39-3D can talk to more than one. The iPad mini 4 would be good for night flight I suppose. Otherwise I am complete underwhelmed. I thought the mini 4 would be a lot faster...but its just a little faster and faster in areas that don't matter nearly that much.

I am guessing the bigger iPad's have more CPU power but there is no way were going past 8" for a tablet in the cockpit.

I think you are making the right choice Nate. Garmin Pilot on a later model Android tablet has turned into a pretty nice combo.

Sinistar said:
Oh yeah, a couple of items that are actually better on the Android GP vis iPad GP.

When you have ADSB wx, on the Android version of GP you can show from 1...N station values. For example, I like to show the wind barb, pressure and ceilings. When we got the iPad Mini 4 and tried GP I noticed I could only show 1 station value...friggin' boo

Oh really?! That's interesting... yeah, you have to select what "overlays" you want in the layers button on GP running on iPad and some of them do turn off others... so they don't on Android, eh? Hmm...

Sinistar said:
Also, on Garmin Pilot it shows several data values above the map. On Garmin Pilot you can configure it to show more than will fit and you just swipe them left/right. I usually keep lat/long just off the screen to the right. I figure in a emergency I could swipe over and write them down or read them off. On the iPad version, no option to show more and swipe (that I can find anyway).

Hmm... kinda like the bottom info bar on Foreflight, but no limit on items? I guess I hadn't played with that bar enough on GP to notice, but that's nice... Foreflight making you choose what you want in that info bar and having limits on number of items (that changes when you rotate the tablet from vertical to horizontal, too...)... never was a very good design. But I like the items you can pick from. They have more of those.

Sinistar said:
If they could bring int the Flight Profile feature into the Android version and then do a little optimizing I think it would be perfect. I wish I would have bought whatever the fastest Android 8" tablet is vs the iPad mini 4.

Yeah, don't care about the flight profile... neither Foreflight nor GP does as well as the old application that run on my LAPTOP for that... which included cloud heights ON THE SIDE VIEW along the route.

Sinistar said:
The screen brightness/contrast difference between the mini 4 and Android was so obvious my wife won't even use the iPad mini 4 in the airplane when in our panel mount.

I bet... I didn't know the Samsungs were all AMOLED until I just looked at that page above.

denverpilot · Jun 11, 2018

Another minor rant... it's probably past time for Foreflight to stop doing THIS:

https://support.foreflight.com/hc/e...n-have-the-same-features-as-the-iPad-version-

There's no reason for it with iPhones getting nearly as big as the tablets... other than that whole "info bar can't resize well" problem... that affects the bottom of screen buttons too, apparently... Just changing that to a swipe model... would work fine...

Someone asked me off-list why I didn't just get a monster iPhone and use that... the reasons are above... especially the no access to Plate Binders and full plate views thing... and Docs... I keep some docs in my Foreflight that I can't pull up on Foreflight on the phone platform... makes no sense... iOS is iOS... seems to me like problems with their use of the physical screen size and widgets for the button bars and info bars...

GeorgeC · Jun 11, 2018

denverpilot said:
Touch screen response time is measurable now in seconds and usually more than five to ten to switch pages. It sucks.

Really? I have a 16G mini4 with ios11 and, aside from a) startup latency and b) a rendering bug I reported a while ago, I don't get anywhere near that kind of UI latency.

denverpilot said:
Just looking at "what ipad"... Apple only puts the A10X in the "pro" of course, so not only is it TWICE as fast (in benchmarking tests) as the iPad, and four times faster than any Mini, it's also pushing the underside of $800 for a REFURB...

Paying $800 to replace a mobile device that's only used for a few specific jobs, and that's only a few years old, is just infuriating... but I know better than to buy the iPad and the slower processor in the bloatware world of Crapple software and Foreflight...

At some point, probably when we had kids, I changed from a leading edge guy into a trailing edge guy. I pretty much don't buy stuff anymore unless it costs less than $300, especially since the software is beta quality at best and the hardware is a disposable appliance.

denverpilot said:
Another minor rant... it's probably past time for Foreflight to stop doing THIS:

https://support.foreflight.com/hc/e...n-have-the-same-features-as-the-iPad-version-

Amen. That was my first email to ForeFlight when the iPhones-of-size came out, and their answer was the reason why I never bothered to purchase said phones.

Sinistar · Jun 11, 2018

Nate - my bad, it is indeed a Galaxy Tab S2 - not sure where I got the "Pro" part from.

Regarding W&B on the Android...I can't find it anywhere. It is okay on the iPad version but I found myself not having the correct values.

Seriously, the Gyronimo App on iOS (Sighhh) is awesome. I wish I had seen it earlier. Explaining W&B to passengers isn't easy...but this is what tablet apps are about. And it has takeoff performance, DA conversion, etc. It is actually the reason I posted another thread in the past about takeoff distance with no flaps. The Gyronimo app only gives what is in the POA but does all the interpolation.

I wish I could give a true battery life comparison. Maybe on the next flight I will turn on both tablets, crank the brightness, connect bot the GDL39 and at the end of the flight record the battery amount left.

There was one other issue now that I think of it. On one occasion the iPad Mini did not automatically connect to the GDL39. That sucked. Sitting there idling wasting gas, removing it from the Bluetooth list and then back in pairing mode, blah, blah, blah. I don't recall this happening on the Android version since I got the GDL39.

I setup and use wifi stuff almost daily. The airport we are at is rather "simple" so they leave the login page wide open and since its printed on the bottom of the router I can even log in and look. I must have tried logging that darn iPad in like 20 times. Then I was thinking something else changed. So I removed the entry from my Android tablet and phone. They both connected on the first try. Its almost like there is anopther security setting in the iPad I am not aware of???

On the top data bar in Android you can select from 10, 15 or 20 items. In the iPad version I can't find a setting. Another one I always have just off screen is Zulu time - cuz I suck at the conversion

I am sure someone really well versed in FF and iPad can counter all of this stuff but I think the Android team for GP is stepping it up, especially since they are running byte code vs native code.

denverpilot · Jun 11, 2018

GeorgeC said:
Really? I have a 16G mini4 with ios11 and, aside from a) startup latency and b) a rendering bug I reported a while ago, I don't get anywhere near that kind of UI latency.

I’m on a Mini 2. You have quite a bit more horsepower but nowhere near what a current iPad or iPad Pro has in the A10 or A10X chipsets, respectively.

The Mini 2 has slowly slipped into unusability with the latest iOS and ForeFlight updates. Even if you use it the “old fashioned” way with real charts and very few, if any, overlays. Just switching to an approach plate will sometimes be spiffy and other times take many seconds...

... which isn’t really safe for an EFB that used to do those things nearly instantaneously. Not for single pilot IMC anyway.

It’s “on the edge” of being dangerous now.

Sinistar · Jun 13, 2018

@denverpilot : Battery data for you...you were right the iPad did better than the Android. So I stand corrected (iPeople rejoice

)

So last night I did a 1.1hr flight before sunset. Then took a 1hr break and then took my time and got night current again so about another 0.6h. Here's a bit more details:

Fully charged both tablets the night before
Turned on both tablets at the exact same time just prior to startup (8:00pm)
Verified both were connected to the GDL39 (so using Bluetooth)
I left the WIFI on both (should have turned off but no wifi routers available anyway)
Set both screens to maximum brightness
Same flight plan on both
Both set to the Garmin Vector graphics VFR view - similar settings for cities, airspace, etc.
I had the Android mounted on the panel and iPad on the seat.
Anytime I adjusted something on the Android I also did the same on the iPad
Flew over to the Delta, did some landings and then back home before it got dark.
Shutdown the plane at 9:20pm.
I noted the difference and the iPad had about 16% more charge (forgot exact numbers here - darn!!!)
I left the GDL39 running
I left both tablets on but disabled the screens by touching the power button once.
Locked up the plane on the ramp, went and got a very late, crappy fast food dinner
Got back in the plane at 10:15pm
Pressed the home button on both tablets and still running GP
There were still within 1% of the values when idled them to get dinner.
Set the brightness on both to minimum to preserve my night vision, not battery life.
Did another preflight since I had left the plane in the dark for an hour
Got my night flight mojo all ready (I love these micro LED's just clip to head set like mic lights)
Started up around 10:30pm (about 90min after sunset)
Did several hops around the patch (I still suck at night landings)
Finally taxied back to the hangar around 11:15pm.
Noted the final battery levels were:
1. 57%: Android Galaxy S2
2. 71%: iPad Mini 4 128Gb (non-celluar)

I hope this was a decent test. Hard to make them identical but close enough to definitely call the iPad the winner. I swear it drained the batter faster. The last time I flew it, it was panel mounted and really, really hot so maybe it was running hotter but not sure if that would equate to faster battery usage.

In a way, the test was like a $100 burger run. Fly for an hour. Disable the screens but leave them on. Take about an hour break and then fly again a similar amount. So in this case about 2hrs:20min of actual GP runtime on the tablets. And another 1hr of standby time which took almost no power. So if you project this out for a maximum in-flight runtime you would get the following:

5h:20min - Android Galaxy 2S
8h:02min - iPad Mini 4 128Gb (non-cellular)

...but part of that (65%) was at full brightness and (35%) was at lowest brightness. So for all daylight both of the numbers will come down a fair amount. Now I wish I would have wrote down the 1st shutdown numbers. Oh well, more numbers for someone to have fun with.

Maybe one more data point. I have indicated in the past that we have a panel mount for our iPad or Android. This winter I ran a USB power cable under the flimsy 182 panel from the cig lighter to this RAM mount. Its nice that you can't see the wire. Also during flight with the Android it stays at 100% the entire flight, full screen brightness and does not overheat. I have not done this test yet with the iPad mini. I suspect it will keep 100%. No clue whether it will overheat or not if charging when at full brightness in this mount.

Sinistar · Jun 14, 2018

How about another data point.

This time a 1.2hr flight all during daylight. I took up a friend and let him fly for the majority of that time. I held my android with GP set to the vector VFR view. Since it wasn't crazy bright (we were in high overcast and occassional light rain) it was good too mount the iPad Mini 4 on the panel. Since my friend couldn't see the controls in front me that well, I switched the iPad to show Synthetic Vision. Wow, did that work slick for him!!! He got the hang of the airspeed, altitude and horizon right away. He was always a bit off course. But not too shabby for his first time at the controls. Using the SynVis horizon he really nailed his altitude on a 360 at 30deg bank! I will definitely use this SynVis setup again for other passengers who intend to also try flying unless its too bright out for the iPad to be there. Test was simple:

Charged both tablets and GDL393D the night before.
Turned on both at the same time
They were probably on 30min before we actually lifted off.
Both were set to highest brightness
Neither was charging during the flight
iPad Mini 4 was always rendering SynVis
Once when checking something I got that same damn black screen lockup leaving SynVis to another option (aaarrrggghhh!)
Android was always showing the moving map.
Landed 1.2hrs later
Checked the battery % on both:
1. 67%: Android Galaxy S2
2. 80%: iPad Mini 4 128Gb (non-cellular

...so for this test, they were on and running for about 100min. And that would give each of them the following expected battery life from a full charge:

5H:03min: Android Galaxy S2
8H:20min: iPad Mini 4 128Gb (non-cellular)

...so those numbers are actually pretty close to the last numbers. They should be a bit worse since they entire test was at max brightness. In this case the Android numbers make sense and the iPad numbers seem off. I would think rendering SynVis would be harder on it than just showing the map.

I think its interesting. For my last couple of tests in side-by-side the iPad has required a App level restart where the Android just kept going. I have tried repeating the screen lockup on Android and it doesn't do it. Java Team vs Object-C Team

flybub · Jun 14, 2018

Thanks for the info! I've been going back and forth which way to go tablet wise and I really need to make a decision. I don't have an external GPS yet so I'm pretty open right now. I have a Galaxy Note 10.1 which would be too big in the 172, but I could make it work. However, if I go with GP, I don't like the fact that Garmin Pilot is proprietary to Garmin hardware. I have 0 issues picking up an iPad and getting Foreflight. But, I don't like the fact that the Mini is more than likely not going to be updated. I read that the newer Foreflight versions really take a toll on the Mini 4 and I don't want to purchase an iPad Mini 4 with the possibility that the next FF update could render it useless. If I could get a Galaxy Tab S2 and pair it with a ForeFlight Scout I would be pretty happy. I do not see any cheaper external GPS options on Garmins website to compete with the Scout unless they don't promote them??

Sinistar · Jun 14, 2018

I just don't see Garmin allowing the ForeFlight Scout (or Stratus or any other non Garmin device) to Garmin Pilot. I really see Garmin Pilot as a front end for all of's Garmin hardware.

However, if you just want a backup (and more accurate) external GPS for Android or iPad and Pilot or Foreflight, just pickup a Garmin Glo. We started with that, great battery life and small. Now it is always on my visor ready to be turned on as backup...unless they GPS gods turn off the transmission

Anyway, I think the Glo was available for around $99 for a while. There are other GPS only solutions that will work for FF but not for Pilot. But to emphasize: the GLO is only GPS, no ADS-B in capability.

flybub · Jun 14, 2018

Sinistar said:
I just don't see Garmin allowing the ForeFlight Scout (or Stratus or any other non Garmin device) to Garmin Pilot. I really see Garmin Pilot as a front end for all of's Garmin hardware.

However, if you just want a backup (and more accurate) external GPS for Android or iPad and Pilot or Foreflight, just pickup a Garmin Glo. We started with that, great battery life and small. Now it is always on my visor ready to be turned on as backup...unless they GPS gods turn off the transmission Anyway, I think the Glo was available for around $99 for a while. There are other GPS only solutions that will work for FF but not for Pilot. But to emphasize: the GLO is only GPS, no ADS-B in capability.

Thanks!

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