Bingo fuel tonight in Salt Lake City...

flyingcheesehead

Touchdown! Greaser!
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I was listening to LiveATC tonight and heard something interesting... Now, the pieces may not all be there since most locations are scanning and so you miss bits and pieces.

However, I was listening for a flight my parents were on going through ZLC (Salt Lake City Center) and heard a "17W" mention being low on fuel. I poked around in Plane Finder and found it - A Beech Premier, N817W, filed from KMLI to KSLC via the Brigham City Four arrival.

Not too long after he made the turn at LHO, Center put him in a hold (!), as published on the arrival with 15 mile legs, and the pilot reiterated he was low on fuel. Crossing the fix a second time, the pilot said "I'm about 5 minutes from an emergency here" and they negotiated the second turn of the hold at only a 3-mile leg. On the outbound, they put him on vectors - And not exactly efficient vectors in terms of getting him toward the airport. Finally, he peeled off the approach and dropped it into Ogden, 25nm short of the destination. Looks like he made it, there's a flight plan filed KOGD-KSLC now, leaving in a few minutes.

FWIW, I did not hear any other aircraft get put into a hold, and there was one SkyWest flight that apparently heard the hold being issued and slowed down to avoid holding himself, and ATC told him to speed back up. So why would Center take the only guy who's low on fuel in his sector and put him in a hold?!? And why would Approach be giving him crazy vectors instead of getting him pointed at least somewhere toward the airport? (I heard a 140 and then 080 for an approach to the south.)

It also seems like there should have been enough fuel on board, since the plane went direct from KMLI to the arrival fix, so it seems there must have been some poor planning on the pilot's part too.
 
That’s just kinda messy all round isn’t that one? Heh. Interesting catch.
 
Interesting he didn’t start the process with declaring “minimum fuel”. That’s generally a formal warning of what may be coming. Although stating you’re low on fuel and five minutes from emergency may convey the point, I’m not sure it carries any formal weight.
 
Although stating you’re low on fuel and five minutes from emergency may convey the point

Any controller who hears a pilot say they are 5 minutes from a fuel emergency needs to be treating it like an emergency *now*, regardless of what the pilot says. This is a pretty poor performance on ATCs part, regardless of whatever the pilot did to get themselves into that spot.
 
Airborne again now. We'll see if he gets another hold.

Edit: Flightaware says 18 to 30 minute departure delays because of wind. Current METAR shows 6 kts wind from the north...
 
Any controller who hears a pilot say they are 5 minutes from a fuel emergency needs to be treating it like an emergency *now*, regardless of what the pilot says. This is a pretty poor performance on ATCs part, regardless of whatever the pilot did to get themselves into that spot.
I do not disagree.
 
Airborne again now. We'll see if he gets another hold.

Edit: Flightaware says 18 to 30 minute departure delays because of wind. Current METAR shows 6 kts wind from the north...

They’re not quite as wind tolerant in Utah vs say, Wyoming, apparently. LOL.
 
They’re not quite as wind tolerant in Utah vs say, Wyoming, apparently. LOL.
FTG was funny Tuesday. 8G18 out of the north so they were landing 35...I landed 26 like a homey.
 
That new flight school must be scaring or waking up the controllers too much in crosswinds. ;)
I had been playing in 30 kt winds out in Kansas so I didn't even really notice the crosswind correction once in ground effect.
 
KSLC is an ATC training center. Perhaps someone stepped out to pee and left the tower looking like an Airplane reenactment?
 
Did they have required reserves on departure? This stuff goes both ways...
True, but it shouldn't matter. A fuel emergency is a fuel emergency regardless of why. They can punish him AFTER he lands, not cause him to crash because he failed to have sufficient reserve.
 
I have flown in almost all of the class B's in the west and Salt Lake is the worst. The controllers are the least helpful I have encountered. Denver is one of the best.
 
One can always refuse a clearance. I once was flying from Van Nuys to Teterboro in a Lear 35. It was a bit of a stretch for that aircraft but the winds were favorable, the weather on both sides good, and the flight well planned for a maximum range effort with legal reserves.

Unfortunately, as we approached Chicago we were told to descend below our optimum cruise altitude and then 30 min later to climb back up. Approaching New York we received an unusually early descent and delaying vectors. By the time we were switched over to approach we were a bit anxious so when the controller issued instructions for a hold I politely refused due to fuel. The controller was very professional and accommodating and asked if I could do one turn in holding, and then he promised to bring right in to the airport. I agreed as requested and was brought in as promised, landing with minimum allowable reserves.
 
The Premier is so fuel limited that if you fill the tanks you can only take the pilot......I have a friend who flys one and he hates it. His associate had to go from VA to Wisconsin with a full load of people and it was 2 fuel stops. That is just bar room talking so don't know if it is really that bad.
 
True, but it shouldn't matter. A fuel emergency is a fuel emergency regardless of why. They can punish him AFTER he lands, not cause him to crash because he failed to have sufficient reserve.
I didn’t say a thing about it not being a fuel emergency or ATC acting inappropriately. Those Improper assumptions are on you.

If a guy did depart with insufficient fuel reserves then maybe they would hesitate to declare an emergency.
 
damn click bait. And here I thought this was gonna be a thread about the POA pitchfork crowd showcasing umbrage at pilots for using DoD brevity comms over victor ATC freqs. This thread gets a 2/10 would not read. :D
 
Mayday Mayday Mayday. I need to get on the ground RIGHT NOW!

People tend to shy away from declaring an emergency.
+1. There comes a time where you have to stop listening for ATC to tell you what to do...and you have to start telling them what you're going to do. They will adapt and accommodate...hell they don't have a choice... You're the one with the damn yoke in hand. Myself..I would have declared the moment I was assigned the hold and told them where I was going to land. They'd get **** out of the way. Maybe I have to explain to the FAA why I was stupid enough to get that low on fuel in the first place. But that's sure easier than explaining why I ran out of gas and planted an airplane into the side of an apartment complex.

Based on the limited information here - I'd say failure on both sides.
 
Based on the limited information here - I'd say failure on both sides.

Yup, seemed that way to me too. Both ZLC and SLC TRACON for taking a plane known to be low on fuel and putting them in a hold and on delaying vectors, and the pilot for what was probably insufficient planning and not being more emphatic about the situation. At least he made the right call to land short and refuel, which I'm sure didn't make the pax happy.
 
I have flown in almost all of the class B's in the west and Salt Lake is the worst. The controllers are the least helpful I have encountered. Denver is one of the best.

The first time I went into Salt Lake City the lady controller yelled at me, I mean actually yelled at me because my transponder was not working. Then she again yelled at me for not being familiar with the local area. Before I was handed off to the tower she again berated me for having a broken transponder and not knowing the local area, then she told me that "You will NOT be able to take off again until you get that transponder fixed, you got that.?!?!." I mean in a hateful, spiteful voice. I did not respond.

After landing I called the tower and explained my situation and asked how I can get out. The guy was very friendly and we had a pleasant chat. He told me to expect to take off runway XX and then I would be given vectors to clear the airspace. He thanked me for calling on the phone first instead of calling on the radio. I told him my experience with approach and how the lady yelled at me. He said yeah, she is a real b#%&h and gave me her operating initials and a number to call to make a complaint, which I certainly did call. That person took my complaint and then told me this happens a lot. I asked why she still has a job and he explained she still has a job because the union.

Hopefully her current job is watching grass grow in Attu, Alaska.
 
This is what a bulk of my upgrade OE was. The check airman would give me a mock hold and ask how long we can hold before we have to bug out.
 
We're all kinda used to cooperating, and mostly loathe to be a burden, or appear inept, to ATC. But yeah, at some point, you gotta break the ice, and start telling instead of asking - you get a rude one once in a blue moon, no biggy, blow it off. Everyone has a bad day - but remember who is in charge - which is you, actually. Don't wimp out when it gets thick.
 
‘5 minutes from an emergency’ could be who knows what? All I can say is any fuel ‘emergency’ needs to be worked much earlier. When things get tight ATC often asks how much flight time is available with the fuel on board.

KMLI is Moline, IL, kinda a long flight to SLC. Maybe they should of had a fuel stop along the way?
 
Mayday Mayday Mayday....
That worked well for me when I unknowingly pulled the fuel shutoff knob instead of the heater knob in a Skycatcher on downwind at an urban airport a couple of years ago. :oops:

I was in a perfect setup for the forced landing, and didn't want to take ANY chance of someone screwing that up!

I find that declaring an emergency does a wonderful job of clearing the mind to focus 100% on doing what needs to be done.
 
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