He's either a troll, has an agenda, or is genuinely too daft to understand that horizontal distance may not be a time-limiting factor with sufficient vertical distance.
I leaning towards option 1.
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Where would you have diverted to?
- Thread starter SkyDog58
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I leaning towards option 1.
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paflyer
Final Approach
[/QUOTE]
You're not much of a critical thinker, are ya?
Ahh, the "low hanging fruit" variety of troll. Perhaps we *are* seeing a case of option 3 after all
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paflyer
Final Approach
Ha- says the guy with 66 whole posts.
Well, excuse me, Mr. Gatekeeper. I didn't realize this ride had a minimum e-penis size requirement.
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jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
I mean I guess it’s easy to say YOU would have went to a different airport when you weren’t there and after the fact.
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Kayoh@190
Nope.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Bottom line, either airport would have had the same result. The Captain made her decision, with input from her FO, and had a successful outcome except for the death, which would have occurred regardless of where they diverted.
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paflyer
Final Approach
We know that now, but no one knew it then.
I guess the NTSB can skip any investigation and sum it up with "All's well that ends well."
denverpilot
Tied Down
More than largely fiction. Complete fiction. Hollywood needed a bad guy.
Do you? As far as I know the only audio available is the LiveATC recording.
Technically they can if that’s their opinion. I’m sure we’ll be paying for a lot more hours of work than that, though.
And like every other NTSB report they’ll say crew communication between cockpit and cabin needed to be better.
You could demand a runner go back and forth, set up a system of smoke signals and semaphores, and keep the intercom line open to the back the entire time talking to them, and NTSB would still say that. Right up until you forgot to fly the airplane because of it. Then they’d say you needed better communication AND a better pilot. LOL. Because that’s what they do.
The normal way to read most NTSB reports is to skim through them reading past all the standard complaints to find the one paragraph with the really interesting part that has something new and non-stereotypical in it. Not to completely discard the other standard complaints but nobody is actually doing anything about those.
Well maybe a little. In the AA engine fire two of the FAs didn’t even know how to work the intercom. You know, the intercom labeled with instructions on how to reach any station and the cockpit printed right on the handset? LOL. NTSB had photos. That was the “interesting paragraph” from that one.
Well...that is part of the checklist...
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
[QUOTE="paflyer, post: 2506251, member: 7743
I guess the NTSB can skip any investigation and sum it up with "All's well that ends well."[/QUOTE]
I didn't say nor imply that. I'm sure the NTSB will continue their investigation. When I flew 121 I diverted for emergencies a few times during my 24 years there, thankfully none this serious. It's a decision a Captain makes with input from others, including the company if time permits. Either airport could have handled the emergency, the Captain choose PHL. I doubt she will be second guessed.
I guess the NTSB can skip any investigation and sum it up with "All's well that ends well."[/QUOTE]
I didn't say nor imply that. I'm sure the NTSB will continue their investigation. When I flew 121 I diverted for emergencies a few times during my 24 years there, thankfully none this serious. It's a decision a Captain makes with input from others, including the company if time permits. Either airport could have handled the emergency, the Captain choose PHL. I doubt she will be second guessed.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
denverpilot
Tied Down
... By anyone who matters.
FTFY.
She’s already being second guessed here. Not by anyone who matters.
paflyer
Final Approach
That hurts...
paflyer
Final Approach
Dave Theisen
En-Route
By any chance, do you collect the landing fees at MDT?
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denverpilot
Tied Down
That hurts...
We all know that one person who’s moved on into that sort of job role where they’re tasked with those decisions, and they’re usually the one who everyone knew was going to grow up to be a complete tool.
It doesn’t hurt to not be a member of that crowd.
“I wouldn’t want to be a member of any organization who’d take me.” - Groucho Marx
paflyer
Final Approach
No, but I would have given them a discount and bought the crew a beer.By any chance, do you the collect landing fees at MDT?
Tarheelpilot
Final Approach
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Tarheelpilot
Really? Why? You are being very critical about someone’s decisions with the clarity of hindsight and the lack of knowledge to understand what goes on when managing these type of failures at high altitude.That hurts...
I don’t always agree with what you post but I never thought of you as unintelligent, quite the opposite actually. I expected you to understand how people in our little internet family that have experience in operating at altitude in jets would get tired of dialogue with you about the topic after a couple of cycles of you being steadfast in your criticism despite efforts to explain it for you.
paflyer
Final Approach
No one criticizes decisions before the fact.
No one has so far explained why MDT didn't even appear as a choice.
If anyone is tired of the dialogue they can go do something else.
Just because someone is steadfast doesn't mean they are wrong, or a troll, or a member of Groucho's club.
The CVR tape will be interesting.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
I don't know why you would think that. A flight crew "locked up" in the cockpit and only having the situation going on in the cabin relayed via the FAs made a decision to divert. They knew they had damage to that engine and structural damage, and initiated an emergency descent the best they could not knowing the full extent of the structural damage. Most airline procedures have you descending to 10,000' and leveling off.
Sure, MDT was an option but perhaps time wise it was a wash and they elected PHL. SWA having a base there or service there at least, may have helped the decision to go there, maybe not. I'm sure the crew wanted to land ASAP for medical care.
I think you're barking up a tree man. I'm out.
No, but she mentioned it to Philadelphia approach when the were setting her up on a base to a long final going in (with one other SWA as the only traffic ahead of her).
denverpilot
Tied Down
That they were concerned about the structural integrity of the aircraft.
MD11Pilot
Line Up and Wait
Some of the posts here remind me of my experiences dealing with what we called "The Zero Ground Speed Committee"...made up of those who have the time to dig through the minutiae of the manuals (minutiae that they added to be included with the other semi important stuff) and can nitpick every decision that the line pilot makes while dealing with the bells, horns, ATC, FA calls and trying to find out just what in the world is happening...very easy when you can prop your feet up on the desk and act smug.
Minutiae - Captain, you said "Brakes Set, LIghts out, cleared to remove external power and the crew stairs...Confirm Gear Pins and Pitot Covers removed.....as ONE sentence instead of two sentences. I have been retired almost three months and don't miss it a bit....I miss the animals but not the zoo.
Minutiae - Captain, you said "Brakes Set, LIghts out, cleared to remove external power and the crew stairs...Confirm Gear Pins and Pitot Covers removed.....as ONE sentence instead of two sentences. I have been retired almost three months and don't miss it a bit....I miss the animals but not the zoo.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Congrats on retirement @MD11Pilot !
paflyer
Final Approach
They weren't concerned about it when they decided to fly across a third of the state and overfly a major metro area in the process.
Oh well, I'm out.
Dave Theisen
En-Route
“Zero Ground Speed Committee”. I may have to steal that! .
Congrats on your retirement!
. Congrats on your retirement!
denverpilot
Tied Down
They probably were, but were too busy to address it. Or they got new news from the back... “There’s a lot of holes back here...” Hmm, maybe we shouldn’t stress this airframe any more than it’s been stressed today.
You seem very intent on saying they did something wrong. Have you listened to other CVRs during engine failures or read the transcripts? You’re pretty damn busy running the QRH items for just the engine, add a decompression and reports of injuries from the back, you’re going through a lot of pages. It takes time.
It’s not like these recordings and transcripts aren’t available for other flights. Go take a gander at some. Don’t just read the transcribed words, really pay attention to the time tags on the left.
And even with that, they’re thorough but they don’t have a stopping point in them that says, “Call the back and have a long chit chat about a lady hanging out the side of the aircraft.”
They get changed from time to time, too. The Hudson event pointed out that the QRH for dual engine out was written for a high altitude dual engine loss due to volcanic ash. It ran so long that the aircraft would have been in the water ten to fifteen minutes before they finished the checklists and the procedure. (Which is also why they never got to the Ditch button and didn’t close the valve.)
In this case, single engine loss with rapid decompression is certainly a trained thing, with both mandatory memory items, donning of masks, and the resulting difficulties with communication while they’re on, and then takes a significant amount of time to get through the checklist once you’re done from a deadly altitude.
You can pre-empt those checklists, but you’d better have a very good reason. A way better reason than, “Some guy on the Internet isn’t going to like my chosen landing airport.”
And recall, from the recording we have, they didn’t appear to have any notice from the cabin that someone was even injured until about a 20 mile final for Philly.
Like I said, NTSB will whine about that, but when you tie up a couple of FAs getting an injured person O2, finding a Doctor if one is aboard, checking that all pax had their masks on, and maintaining a herd of panicked passenger’s emotions, they really don’t have time to be chit-chatting with the cockpit either.
Keep in mind also that the number of FAs is determined by the evacuation test, not by how many people it takes to manage an in-flight medical emergency on top of a decompression and slam dunk drop with masks dropped. It’s pretty common for the cabin crew to be completely out of resources during an event like that.
Think of how many people it took to slap the hysterical passenger in Airplane!
But seriously, they’re busy. The flight crew is busy putting the aircraft on the ground. There’s quite a bit of time compression, and from the flight crew’s perspective, they’re just flying a crippled jet. Not a crippled jet with a passenger hanging outside, or whatever happened to her. The insinuation that you’re essentially making is that a human flight crew wouldn’t do everything in their power to help the lady that they could if they knew about it.
Here’s my bet. The cabin crew called and said she was dead on 20 mile final. The flight crew then tactfully asked for an ambulance for someone “injured” over the radio, knowing the press and everyone else would have that audio long before the CVR was redacted for unnecessary items to the investigation, and eventually released.
You don’t say you have dead passengers over the ATC radio.
I suspect she was dead in the decomp and the cabin crew tried like hell to revive her and notified the cockpit they didn’t think she was going to be revived just prior to landing. Since, training is to continue CPR until you hand off to the ambulance crew.
Ever do CPR on someone for that long? You usually have to trade out rescuers. It’s exhausting. Now do it on the floor of an airliner in the aisle or maybe drag the victim if you dare move them to the galley floor. And wonder how trampled the victim will be if you have to order an evac over their body and out that particular set of exits.
Long CPR sessions, ain’t no fun. You do it because until a Doc calls them dead, they’re not dead yet.
Anyway that’s my best guess. People trying to save her life in vain, or she was killed instantly. Either way, the cabin crew didn’t notify the cockpit right away or likely notified them that they were assessing and then got caught up in CPR activities, helping move her, whatever.
You can kinda tell something really bad happened in the cabin. Not a single person shot a cell phone video and was willing to post it. Probably out of respect to the family. Nor have any surfaced. I seriously doubt the airline confiscated any equipment.
And we do have the two idiots further foreword who took selfies. So there were cell phones on board. They were far enough away, they didn’t likely even know someone was dead or dying in back of them.
I hate the cell phone patrol with a passion in emergencies, but there not being a single thing posted from that area of the cabin is a big hint that something looked really bad. The usual narcissists didn’t even dare snap a photo nearby. That bad.
Tarheelpilot
Final Approach
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Tarheelpilot
Frankly it was to close to be viable. Especially in hindsight.
Some have. I’m trying to give you some insight so you understand.
No but it does mean you are unwilling to accept basic information being shared with you as valid. The best analogy is you’re standing in the corner with your fingers stuck in your ears insisting you are right while those with direct experience and training try to explain things to you. Yet... you reject the input and insist that the crew endangered lives on the ground and on the airplane because you just know they did..and you don’t have any idea what you’re talking about.
I doubt it.
paflyer
Final Approach
Someday (actually, never) I'm going to be able to type as fast as you, Nate.
For the record, I'm not insinuating anyone did anything "wrong", but everyone else here is rationalizing a "decision" that never considered any other landing option even though a perfectly good one was literally right in front of them. I contend that they never thought of it.
"The insinuation that you’re essentially making is that a human flight crew wouldn’t do everything in their power to help the lady that they could if they knew about it."
********. What orifice did you pull that from?
There's no doubt that poor woman died instantly and mercifully so.
For the record, I'm not insinuating anyone did anything "wrong", but everyone else here is rationalizing a "decision" that never considered any other landing option even though a perfectly good one was literally right in front of them. I contend that they never thought of it.
"The insinuation that you’re essentially making is that a human flight crew wouldn’t do everything in their power to help the lady that they could if they knew about it."
********. What orifice did you pull that from?
There's no doubt that poor woman died instantly and mercifully so.
paflyer
Final Approach
What do you fly?
mtuomi
En-Route
How many hours do you have flying a jet?
I'm pretty sure it's 0, because then you'd know something right in front of you usually isn't a very good option.
Tarheelpilot
Final Approach
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Tarheelpilot
Now I’m in training at a regional. Previously
B-727 flight engineer
Citiation II & V, PIC
Beech Jet, PIC
Embraer 170,175 & 190, SIC
A couple varieties of beech king air and other multiengine turbo props, PIC & SIC
Just about every type of ag airplane currently in use. Obviously PIC since there’s only one seat
Huey’s and OH-58’s (civilian ops not military) PIC
If I open log ten pro I have flown 63 different aircraft types but I consider that number inflated. Cessna 150,172,182, 177 would be 4 different types but in real life they are all the same to me. Same thing with ag airplanes. There are ten different types logged but really only 3 distinctively different types based on flight characteristics etc.
"Pig 1-1, Eagleye, good bombs. Re-attack authorized, request cannon, over."
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Rex Kramer
Line Up and Wait
Put me down for another PHL vote. MDT is closer distance wise, but time wise it's a wash. Hell, being in the mid 30s is probably setting up to be high if descending into the PHL area. The rapid D and ensuing descent probably helped that issue.
Immediate issue of fire/decompression passed. Possible control issues at slower speeds due to damage requiring higher approach speeds and longer landing distances. No guarantee the tires are still even inflated due to said damage. Possible need to prep for an evacuation which takes time. Longer runways, better CFR capabilities. And, if the plane stops on the runway, better company services to help the passengers.
There's a reason MDT wasn't on their radar. It wasn't necessary given the circumstances.
Immediate issue of fire/decompression passed. Possible control issues at slower speeds due to damage requiring higher approach speeds and longer landing distances. No guarantee the tires are still even inflated due to said damage. Possible need to prep for an evacuation which takes time. Longer runways, better CFR capabilities. And, if the plane stops on the runway, better company services to help the passengers.
There's a reason MDT wasn't on their radar. It wasn't necessary given the circumstances.
denverpilot
Tied Down
So then what difference does it make where they landed? The thing could have been flown for hours once the medical emergency is removed from the picture.
Larger aircraft that need to dump fuel after tossing an engine actually do fly around for hours before landing.
If there’s no immediate emergency need to put the aircraft on the ground, and there’s a company airport in reasonable range, what’s the rush?
paflyer
Final Approach
So, a rank beginner...
Tarheelpilot
Final Approach
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Tarheelpilot
Seriously? Yes. Plenty of pilots with way more experience than I have and I’ve been around long enough to know when I should listen.So, a rank beginner...