Where would you have diverted to?

So where would you have gone if you were the captain of the SWA flight?

  • PHL

    Votes: 30 93.8%

  • MDT

    Votes: 2 6.3%

  • Somewhere else?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    32
SkyDog58

SkyDog58

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Well we beat to death the engine issue as well as the captain’s gender in other threads. So now let’s discuss where the flight diverted to. It diverted to PHL though MDT was much closer according to Flightaware. MDT’s runway is 10,000’ x 200’. SWA has ops at PHL but not MDT. A life is possibly hanging in the balance.

Where would you go?

What would impact your decision?
 
I've spent time in airports and hospitals in both Harrisburg and Philadelphia. I'd go to Philadelphia.
 
Did the pilot make that decision or ATC? I don't recall. Do you know for sure there was no NOTAMs on the harrisburg runway? It's a small airport, not inconceivable that they shut the runway down for maintenance for a couple days.

Also, initial indication was just engine out, not passenger injury, which is probably the deciding factor. Makes sense to send them to an SWA airport for engine out.
 
How much closer was MDT? Usually try to divert to an airport served by your airline. In an emergency that's out depending on how serious the emergency. This one was very serious with damage to the jet, and a injured passenger. But at the time was the crew aware of the injury/death?
 
At the time I doubt, don't know, the captain knew of the injured passenger. PHL is my vote.
 
I realized once I failed to secure the luggage door on my aircraft, and knew I had to land as soon as possible. But when I thought about how long it would take to descend, I realized that my intended destination was just as good a spot as any. If the engine bit the dust at altitude I suspect it made no difference time wise, since the aircraft had to descend and not overspeed in the process.
 
I haven't seen the descent profile. Did they do an emergency descent. That's a tough call in this situation because you want to because you've lost pressurization, but you don't want to because you've got an engine out and a possibly compromised structure. If they were still at altitude and coming down slowly, the distance to PHL probably wouldn't make much difference because the time to get down would just about cover that.
 
MDT looks closer but I would have done the same and gone to PHL. You need to factor in the time and distance and possible maneuvers to get down to a closer airport. Familiarity with PHL would weigh in also. I have flown both passengers and cargo and honestly didn’t think or fly any differently. The job is to get the plane down safely. What’s in the back will follow along. I haven’t seen a timeline of the event from the the failure to touch down but from altitude to the ground in 15 to 20 minutes is outstanding.
In reality, in a smoke/fire situation, the crew only has about 15 minutes before loss of the aircraft.
 
If you listen to the tapes, both ATC and pilot arrived at PHL independently as the best option.

Descent time is a big factor. You can’t exactly nose dive a 737 into an airport directly under you
 
Salty said:
Did the pilot make that decision or ATC? I don't recall. Do you know for sure there was no NOTAMs on the harrisburg runway? It's a small airport, not inconceivable that they shut the runway down for maintenance for a couple days.

Also, initial indication was just engine out, not passenger injury, which is probably the deciding factor. Makes sense to send them to an SWA airport for engine out.
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I think the captain requested the closest airport, ATC said Phillie, captain said ok, give me vectors.
 
ATC: What airport would you like to go to?
SWA: Give us a vector to your closest.
ATC: Um, OK.
SWA: Philadelphia.

Looks like they were at about 29,000' and 30 miles east of MDT they were descending with a ground speed around 300 knots, so they'd have to have done about a 6000 FPM descent to make that. Going to PHL< they did about 3000 FPM down to 11,000 held that for a minute and then did a pretty constant 1500 or so down to the runway. Doesn't look like they dallied getting on the ground.
 
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Philly. I don't think she knew about the death and injuries until after Philly was decided. Plus, with the descent I don't know that MDT would have been that much quicker to get to.

In the end, it doesn't look like it mattered. The fatality was pretty quick and I don't think anyone else was in an immediate medical need.
 
Overweight for landing, single engine, structural damage, cabin pressure gone, pax frazzled, and more. Not to say one will delay, but there are a few checklists to peek at.

At altitude, anything near 100 miles is about the same. I realize the emergency descent shortened that. Just as long as they didn’t continue to TX, I’m not about to criticize.
 
Shawn said:
If you listen to the tapes, both ATC and pilot arrived at PHL independently as the best option.

Descent time is a big factor. You can’t exactly nose dive a 737 into an airport directly under you
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Clearly Boeing needs to release a dive-brake STC for this.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
 
I thought I also recall seeing a line of storms that was over MDT at the time. I wonder if that played into the decision.
 
Captain called Philly. Can't disagree with her. I really don't know Harrisburg, don't know their capabilities. PHL I know and it looked like just single engine ops at the time.

About 45 miles to Harrisburg and 60 to PHL, probably something like 15 minutes to PHL vs 10 to Harrisburg. There was a line of clouds to the west, but not at Harrisburg.

I'm fine with this. Don't wear out your armchair.
 
PaulS said:
I think the captain requested the closest airport, ATC said Phillie, captain said ok, give me vectors.
Click to expand...

Negative. ATC started to give closest and pilot stated flatly that they wanted Philly which de-railed the ATC "help" they were about to get. You can hear the controller stumble over the response and then accept it... his training says aircraft gets to choose... aircraft just chose... so no point in continuing to offer other locations unless they appear to be descending too fast to make it to PHL. Even then, it would have only been a suggestion after the announcement they were going to PHL. Part of the problem is the controller and the aircraft "doubled" right at that juncture, you can hear it in the recording... controller offering ideas right when the emergency aircraft was unkeyed, and both transmitted at the same time, as I recall from listening to it.

(The fact that ATC comm still isn't full-duplex in 2018 is a contributor to a number of mis-communications in accident CVR recordings, but is rarely listed by NTSB as a suggestion for FAA to fix... it'd be expensive and problematic at best... we're stuck with single frequency AM radios in aviation "forever" for our "real-time" comm, I suspect. It'll never die. Data link works to suck up the clearance delivery and en-route clearances over a long haul future view, but approach and emergencies are going to be mash-to-mumble and AM single-frequency until long after I'm dead.)

It's pretty clear from the recording that the cockpit wasn't notified of the injury or seriousness of it until they were already on a 20 mile final for PHL, way too late to make any different decision. That's when they started asking for the ambulances to meet the aircraft.

Up until that point they thought they had lost an engine, had damage to the aircraft, minor injuries assumed, and were treating it as a possible aircraft controllability problem on arrival, so choosing an SWA base made sense... especially if they didn't have official landing data for other airports in the area... lowers workload... better options for pax that need to make connections... more company staff around to handle the mob... etc etc etc.

The CVR will make it clearer once it's published, including the decision-making happening up front, but that's my take on it, after listening to the ATC recording.
 
Again, it's not clear it was possible/prudent to get it on the ground any faster. They busted ass down to 12 or so because they were decompressing. Other than ATC asking them to temporarily stop at 11,000 for about 60 seconds, they continued a pretty healthy descent to the runway. They knew they had some undiagnosed structural damage. Even if they had committed to go to MDT they'd have had to circle or something to get down there.
 
Glad to see the POA brain trust came up with the same thoughts as I did (and more) when I was shown the flight track and asked the question by a friend last night. He is a non pilot but is a mechanic with a major and his opinion was rather strong that they should have gone into MDT. He’s convinced that SWA made an operational/financial decision over lives. Couldn’t convince him otherwise.
 
sourdough44 said:
Overweight for landing, single engine, structural damage, cabin pressure gone, pax frazzled, and more.
Click to expand...

Yup, land at the airport best equipped in case things go south on landing, and that's PHL. One of the big reasons UA232 ended reasonably well is those guys somehow got that crippled bird back to the airport environment where emergency responders were waiting.
 
Once the fire is out and they reach 10K feet the crew pretty much has all the time in the world to decide where to divert to.
 
wayne said:
In the end, it doesn't look like it mattered. The fatality was pretty quick and I don't think anyone else was in an immediate medical need.
Click to expand...

That's my line of thinking. I don't know what part of the poor woman's body went out the window, but no matter what it was being hit with 500mph winds at -60F does not bode well for survival. I'd imagine it was pretty quick.
 
jordane93 said:
Once the fire is out and they reach 10K feet the crew pretty much has all the time in the world to decide where to divert to.
Click to expand...

That's how it's trained and simulated, anyway... there's been a FEW accidents and incidents where the aircraft was structurally unsound, or other problems on top of losing the engine, where flying longer than necessary wouldn't have been a great idea... and some where flying around for a long time gave folks the time to figure out how to fly the thing (Sioux City)...

A good sim trainer would toss in something "interesting" to a crew that was a little "too comfortable" with themselves after getting to 10,000', if their training syllabus allows it. :)

"Captain, the FA says the outboard four feet or so of the left wing is vibrating strangely in a way she's never seen..." :) :) :)
 
denverpilot said:
Negative. ATC started to give closest and pilot stated flatly that they wanted Philly which de-railed the ATC "help" they were about to get. You can hear the controller stumble over the response and then accept it... his training says aircraft gets to choose... aircraft just chose... so no point in continuing to offer other locations unless they appear to be descending too fast to make it to PHL. Even then, it would have only been a suggestion after the announcement they were going to PHL. Part of the problem is the controller and the aircraft "doubled" right at that juncture, you can hear it in the recording... controller offering ideas right when the emergency aircraft was unkeyed, and both transmitted at the same time, as I recall from listening to it.

(The fact that ATC comm still isn't full-duplex in 2018 is a contributor to a number of mis-communications in accident CVR recordings, but is rarely listed by NTSB as a suggestion for FAA to fix... it'd be expensive and problematic at best... we're stuck with single frequency AM radios in aviation "forever" for our "real-time" comm, I suspect. It'll never die. Data link works to suck up the clearance delivery and en-route clearances over a long haul future view, but approach and emergencies are going to be mash-to-mumble and AM single-frequency until long after I'm dead.)

It's pretty clear from the recording that the cockpit wasn't notified of the injury or seriousness of it until they were already on a 20 mile final for PHL, way too late to make any different decision. That's when they started asking for the ambulances to meet the aircraft.

Up until that point they thought they had lost an engine, had damage to the aircraft, minor injuries assumed, and were treating it as a possible aircraft controllability problem on arrival, so choosing an SWA base made sense... especially if they didn't have official landing data for other airports in the area... lowers workload... better options for pax that need to make connections... more company staff around to handle the mob... etc etc etc.

The CVR will make it clearer once it's published, including the decision-making happening up front, but that's my take on it, after listening to the ATC recording.
Click to expand...

You've probably listened to it more times than I, I think PHL was a good decision. That pilot sounded shell shocked to me. She was functioning, but she was obviously distressed, I can't imagine what it must have been like to function through that, I think the crew did a great job.
 
PaulS said:
You've probably listened to it more times than I, I think PHL was a good decision. That pilot sounded shell shocked to me. She was functioning, but she was obviously distressed, I can't imagine what it must have been like to function through that, I think the crew did a great job.
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Funny.. I thought she sounded quite calm and professional during the whole event.
 
Ryanb said:
Funny.. I thought she sounded quite calm and professional during the whole event.
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Do you think that's the way she sounds in regular ops? I said distressed, like in physical pain and with a lot on her mind, not stressed out and definitely not panicked but distressed.
 
PaulS said:
Do you think that's the way she sounds in regular ops? I said distressed, like in physical pain and with a lot on her mind, not stressed out and definitely not panicked but distressed.
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How else do you expect her to act? Expressing some trepidation is only natural. It seems as though you enjoy picking this accident apart from any angle that you can.
 
EricVKX said:
At the time I doubt, don't know, the captain knew of the injured passenger. PHL is my vote.
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Pretty sure that was the case. The decision to divert to PHL was made by the Captain during the initial emergency descent. At the point the Captain said they wanted to go to PHL, it is unlikely she had even heard from the cabin crew yet.
 
Ryanb said:
How else do you expect her to act? Expressing some trepidation is only natural. It seems as though you enjoy picking this accident apart from any angle that you can.
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If you read the previous post, it was clear that there was no criticism intended by pointing out that she sounds a bit harried... In fact, I read it as the opposite: even though she is audibly distressed, she maintained control of the aircraft and brought it to a safe landing without harming additional passengers.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
 
ShuRugal said:
If you read the previous post, it was clear that there was no criticism intended by pointing out that she sounds a bit harried... In fact, I read it as the opposite: even though she is audibly distressed, she maintained control of the aircraft and brought it to a safe landing without harming additional passengers.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Thanks ShuRugal, you read it the way intended, Ryan is apparently a little upset from another thread.
 
I have no idea what swa's divert guidance book says. the divert guide may have given them a reason to pick PHL over MDT other than operational considerations. also, nearest may not be quickest. at 370 even with a emergency decent to 10 you still cover a lot of ground and still have checklists that must be done.


bob
 
Two points to make:

1. ARFF Index - MDT is Index B, PHL is Index E. PHL has several times the ARFF capability of MDT.

2. SWA service to PHL. While that alone should not be a consideration in an emergency, it may have had an impact on what the captain saw when she punched up nearest on the FMS. I know this for a fact due to an incident I personally worked that involved another airline. That airline only had airports it served in its database. The airport an emergent aircraft had diverted to was not in the aircraft database. The recovery aircraft had to get a database update in order to fly to the diversion airport to recover the passengers.

Plus as its already been pointed out, from FL380 to the ground, it may have taken the same amount of time to reach either. Just a difference between spiraling down or going straight.

Also at the time the captain made the decision, the information available to her was only of an engine failure/depressurization, perhaps not of the injuries and cabin damage immediately.
 
One more thing I just noticed, MDT has a single runway. You land your damaged plane there and can't clear the runway, you've just closed that airport for a while.
 
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