On this gps approach TAA question
- Thread starter Joffreyyy
- Start date
tsts4
Pattern Altitude
If you are cleared direct ZEGRA and your course is anywhere between 86 and 264 deg you’d do the PT. IOW if you approach from the NE, N, or NW you do the PT.
However in reality, unless you request ZEGRA, my bet is 99.9% of the time you’d get RITOE or TUPLE as the IAF negating the need for the PT.
However in reality, unless you request ZEGRA, my bet is 99.9% of the time you’d get RITOE or TUPLE as the IAF negating the need for the PT.
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Radar Contact
Pattern Altitude
From area A use Zegra straight in.
If you come from the north and choose to use Zegra as the IAF then you would do the course reversal depicted.
The area you have circled says nopt telling you if you come from A then you can go straight in.
If you come from the north and choose to use Zegra as the IAF then you would do the course reversal depicted.
The area you have circled says nopt telling you if you come from A then you can go straight in.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
These procedures are pretty much designed so that you don't ever have to do the course reversal/procedure turn/HPILPT.
If you're coming from the south, the area you have circled, you proceed direct ZEGRA and then inbound ("30nm to ZEGRA (NoPT)"). If you're coming from the northwest, you'd go to RITOE and fly the base leg (2500 NoPT), and then hang a left at ZEGRA. Coming from the northeast, you'd go to TUPLE, fly the right base leg (also 2500 NoPT), and take a right at ZEGRA.
If you really want to fly the hold, come from the north and request full procedure starting at ZEGRA. Go direct ZEGRA (do not pass RITOE or TUPLE, do not collect $200), fly the turn and proceed inbound, crossing ZEGRA exactly twice.
In all cases, be sure ATC knows your plan and clears you to the appropriate fix.
If you're coming from the south, the area you have circled, you proceed direct ZEGRA and then inbound ("30nm to ZEGRA (NoPT)"). If you're coming from the northwest, you'd go to RITOE and fly the base leg (2500 NoPT), and then hang a left at ZEGRA. Coming from the northeast, you'd go to TUPLE, fly the right base leg (also 2500 NoPT), and take a right at ZEGRA.
If you really want to fly the hold, come from the north and request full procedure starting at ZEGRA. Go direct ZEGRA (do not pass RITOE or TUPLE, do not collect $200), fly the turn and proceed inbound, crossing ZEGRA exactly twice.
In all cases, be sure ATC knows your plan and clears you to the appropriate fix.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
It's that simple. @Joffreyyy, are you thinking, or is someone making the argument to you, that if you are within 10 miles of ZEGRA in the 2500 foot sector when you get the clearance, that it changes because it doesn't actually say NoPT there?
George Mohr
Line Up and Wait
Yeah, seems to me that the hold is really there for altitude reduction if needed.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
BUT... You can't fly the hold if you come from the south side, absent a specific clearance to do so. And if you come from the north side and don't start the approach at ZEGRA, same thing.
IMO, if you need the PT for altitude reduction, one of three things has happened:
1) You requested lower at the right time and ATC had to hold you up high for traffic.
2) There is surrounding terrain that makes it a mandatory part of the procedure to get down to the FAF altitude per the TERPS.
3) You're behind the plane.
FWIW, I think most if not all of the straight T GPS approaches (with two base legs perpendicular to the FAC) have the hold depicted, even if there are NoPT TAAs from any direction. I'd love to hear some enlightenment on why they're there from @aterpster or another knowledgeable sort on the subject.
Radar Contact
Pattern Altitude
In my opinion, the best use for those holds are if you have multiple aircraft requesting the approach at the same time. At an uncontrolled field you can't clear the next guy until the first cancels. If it's IMC and they have to call flight service on the ground then flight services has to call the facility, it takes some time. Instead of vectoring in circles, it is easier at times to hold the waiting aircraft at the IAF/IF (as depicted) and as soon as you get the cancellation the next lowest gets to go in.
Otherwise, I have never given a pilot the reversal. They either go to one of the T's or the straight-in.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Do you stack them up on the hold at 1000-foot intervals then? For example, this one has the hold and intermediate leg at 2500 feet. Would you put the next guy at 3500 (or 4000) and if there's a third, put him another 1000 feet up from the second? And, assuming the missed approach holding fix is not back at the IF, after the first guy proceeds inbound you drop the next one down to 2500 and so on?
It'd be interesting to do this as a practice scenario first on the new boxes, instead of the first time I encounter it in real life.
Radar Contact
Pattern Altitude
Do you stack them up on the hold at 1000-foot intervals then? For example, this one has the hold and intermediate leg at 2500 feet. Would you put the next guy at 3500 (or 4000) and if there's a third, put him another 1000 feet up from the second? And, assuming the missed approach holding fix is not back at the IF, after the first guy proceeds inbound you drop the next one down to 2500 and so on?
It'd be interesting to do this as a practice scenario first on the new boxes, instead of the first time I encounter it in real life.
I would hold at the next highest IFR altitude that gives you 1000ft. In the case of 2500 at the fix, I'd hold at 4000 and 5000 if I had two others conflicting (just easier to keep IFR planes at IFR altitudes in busier airspace). In the case where the missed is not back towards the fix I'd then drop the first down to 2500 to hold so they'd be ready as soon as I get the cancellation. When 4000 is available, the 5000 guy drops down. Usually there's not several planes going into an uncontrolled field at the same time but it does happen occasionally. In this scenario I always re-iterate to the guys cleared to please not delay canceling because others are waiting. It's shocking and rare that after this I've still had to call the FBO to verify a plane is down because they forgot to call while people are waiting.
I've practiced this before as well even though I haven't had to hold IFR yet. With my GNS530W I just keep it in SUSP mode until cleared on the inbound leg. I'm guessing the GTN is similar?
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Used to have to do that occasionally at a satelite nontowered airport that we provided ATC services to. Sometimes the PIC would even leave the FBO while checking on him, long gone. I'm sure it's a lot easier to cancel now with all the smart devices.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Surprisingly, not really. Still have to make a phone call.
Unless, of course, I completely missed a new way of doing it. But to my knowledge, while the smart devices have helped a lot, the only thing we can do with flight plans is amend them prior to the filed departure time.
denverpilot
Tied Down
@John Collins and I were discussing in another thread, but if you file with your ForeFlight you can do more things. And if you file via Leidos you can use text messages to do things.
Thought you were still a beta tester for them??
Our discussion was about various vagaries and differences with VFR flight plans but most of it applies to IFR ones also.
Briar Rabbit
Line Up and Wait
I frequently get my 6 months instrument currency at an uncontrolled airport similar to Durant. The cfii I use is big on shooting back to back approaches and if we were there the scenario would include a hold, pt and approach. The routine would be like this:
1) Shoot RNAV approach for 17, LPV minimums
2) Go missed to Zegra
3) Hold at Zegra, 2 times around the track
4) shoot the RNAV 35 approach coming out of the holding pattern, MDA to circling minimums
But other than that I think the previously mentioned techniques are more realistic applications.
1) Shoot RNAV approach for 17, LPV minimums
2) Go missed to Zegra
3) Hold at Zegra, 2 times around the track
4) shoot the RNAV 35 approach coming out of the holding pattern, MDA to circling minimums
But other than that I think the previously mentioned techniques are more realistic applications.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Do you stack them up on the hold at 1000-foot intervals then? For example, this one has the hold and intermediate leg at 2500 feet. Would you put the next guy at 3500 (or 4000) and if there's a third, put him another 1000 feet up from the second? And, assuming the missed approach holding fix is not back at the IF, after the first guy proceeds inbound you drop the next one down to 2500 and so on?
It'd be interesting to do this as a practice scenario first on the new boxes, instead of the first time I encounter it in real life.
The first guy would have to be out of 1500 before giving the next guy in the stack 2500. There is nothing that forces the first guy to descend right away once inbound.
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flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
I am, and I know... But you cannot cancel IFR with it. You can only cancel IFR (or amend your plan) up until 30 minutes prior to your filed ETD. Still gotta call on the phone if you're unable to cancel on the radio. (Unless Leidos has some sort of e-cancellation thing of their own, which I'm not aware of either.)
denverpilot
Tied Down
I *think* Leidos will let you cancel with a text, but I need to go try and test the various methods to make a chart. LOL. That was my complaint in the other thread, you need a scorecard to figure out the matrix of methods between multiple vendors and VFR/IFR. It’s gotten kinda stupid.
Plus, as I was saying in that thread, the VFR differences are dumb. Teach people to do it the same way every time and they’re a lot more likely to do it and do it right. Picking up a VFR should be the same as IFR, call CD/Ground, get it filed, maybe also add Flight Following if it’s available, and if controlled, have the Tower close it when you land like any IFR.
The old system is based off of having the FSS sitting right there at the more popular airports and is stupidly outdated in the world of computers. The flight plan isn’t showing up at the FSS desk via teletype anymore.
Part of that problem is the dumb split between the new fake FSS at Leidos that’s really nothing more than people reading stuff off of a website, and ATC. Should have moved the whole shebang for flight plans (especially those with VFR radar services) into the ATC side of the house a long time ago.
John Collins
En-Route
Kent,
I agree with you except that each Center defines its own time out value after which it will not accept an IFR flightplan message to amend, delay, or cancel the filed flightplan. The 30 minutes has been changed for the most part to be 47 minutes (no clue how that number was arrived at), but for NY Center, it is 62 minutes. IFR flightplan messages are sent from either Leidos or other IFR flightplan providers via the AFTN network directly to the appropriate center. Center will either send an ACK (Acknowledgement) message or a REJ (Rejection Message) in response. Other message types sent to Center include CHG (Change which is the result of an Amend), DLY (Delay which is the result of an amendment in the departure time), or CNL (Cancel which means forget about it, I am not going). These messages are also responded to with either an ACK or REJ. The 30 minute timeout (now up to 62 minutes) for CHG, DLY, or CNL will respond with a REJ and Manual Coordination Required when the timeout is exceeded. The CNL is sent to remove the flightplan all together and if it is accepted, the flightplan is removed from the active ATC system and not acted on. Unfortunately, the FAA uses the same terminology to end an active IFR clearance when arriving at a non towered airport, but this is just a verbal communication and does not use the AFTN network to transmit a CNL.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
I’m a little lost on this. Did you mean ‘cancel or amend your IFR flight plan’ when you said “cancel IFR (or amend your plan)”? I’d have just assumed that except you went on to say “still gotta call on the phone if your unable to cancel on the radio.” That implies your talking about cancelling IFR after ‘activating,’ so to speak, by getting airborne and operating on your IFR ‘clearance.’ I’m not seeing any connection between that and the number of minutes before ETD.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
To answer your question: Yes, that's what I meant.
You can cancel an IFR flight plan *before* you take off, provided you're well before the ETD. Once you've activated it or you're too close to the ETD, you can no longer close/cancel without picking up the phone. So, despite all of our high tech, we're still using the phone for that, for the most part.
Of course, this is the same agency that will send you a *fax* from their "registration 'modernization' program."
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
To answer your question: Yes, that's what I meant.
You can cancel an IFR flight plan *before* you take off, provided you're well before the ETD. Once you've activated it or you're too close to the ETD, you can no longer close/cancel without picking up the phone. So, despite all of our high tech, we're still using the phone for that, for the most part.
Of course, this is the same agency that will send you a *fax* from their "registration 'modernization' program."
Gotcha. If you don’t plan on going you can just let it time out, no need to cancel it unless you are planning on filing another one from the same airport within a couple hours or whatever the timeout time is now. Of course if you’ve already got the ‘clearance,’ which actually ‘activates’ it at non towered airports, but couldn’t get airborne you have to let them know.