Apparent plane crash on TPC Scottsdale Golf Course

Just saw that a minute ago, reporting it was a PA24
 
Sad. I live down the street from TPC. Aviation is brutal sometimes.
 
All six seats filled, warm night, things that make you go hmmmm. Brutal outcome no matter the cause. :-(
 
Bill Jennings said:
All six seats filled, warm night, things that make you go hmmmm. Brutal outcome no matter the cause. :-(
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I had the same thought.

When I flew out of Scottsdale I always looked at that golf course and thought it might be one of the better places to put down in an engine failure. Taking off 21 it was Greenway road( I think Greenway), possibly Scottsdale (way too busy) or the Kierland golf course depending on how much altitude I had.
 
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KSDL 100353Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 27/M04 A2996 RMK AO2 SLP124 T02671044

Density altitude 3354 ft.

Local news says the accident happened at 8:45 PM. The runway was NOTAMed to be closed from 9 PM to 6 AM for construction.
 
Just listened to the Scottsdale Tower frequencies on liveatc.net for that timeframe. Appears it was N9456P, with a registration pending to someone in Las Vegas. A PA24-260 from 1970. The certificate is now listed as "terminated or in question".

Some excerpts from the recording:

03:38:40Z Requests NW departure. Assigned runway 3.
03:44:04Z Cleared for takeoff
03:45:58Z Tower asks if experiencing any difficulty. Replies that "we're good"
 
FlightAware shows they had just flown down from North Las Vegas, landing at KSDL about 30 mins before this takeoff. The previous day to KTOA, Zamperini Field, in LA, though with no return flight plan.
 
I see an Instagram story of one of the pax as they were boarding. It looks very full and with an uphill runway departure it doesn't look good.
 
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NJP_MAN said:
I see an Instagram story of one of the pax as they were boarding. It looks very full and with an uphill runway departure it doesn't look good.
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Link?
 
NJP_MAN said:
PMed
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Damn...found the IG of the pilot who recently bought that commanche. That was a NICE airplane. Well equipped panel, beautiful interior, etc. From what I can tell it was all younger folks in that plane. How sad and what a ****ty way to go.
 
Pilot shows up as student pilot in FAA database...?
 
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PeterNSteinmetz said:
Just listened to the Scottsdale Tower frequencies on liveatc.net for that timeframe. Appears it was N9456P, with a registration pending to someone in Las Vegas. A PA24-260 from 1970. The certificate is now listed as "terminated or in question".

Some excerpts from the recording:

03:38:40Z Requests NW departure. Assigned runway 3.
03:44:04Z Cleared for takeoff
03:45:58Z Tower asks if experiencing any difficulty. Replies that "we're good"
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He says, "were good" and then something about training flight? It's hard to hear what he said.
 
Bill Jennings said:
All six seats filled, warm night, things that make you go hmmmm. Brutal outcome no matter the cause. :-(
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It gets worse...the owner and passengers have posts all over social media, from the owner's first flight, right up to minutes before the crash. Owner/pilot took his first flight ever in October 2017. Bought the plane 2 months ago in February. Mentions how he is going to fill up the 6 seats too (aren't the back seats child seats?). Video right before the crash shows six medium-to-large adults, loud rap music playing, numerous mentions of flying to Vegas to party...Not saying any of this, individually, caused the crash, but together? I don't see how they could have NOT crashed.
 
tawood said:
It gets worse...the owner and passengers have posts all over social media, from the owner's first flight, right up to minutes before the crash. Took his first flight ever in October 2017. Bought the plane 2 months ago in February. Mentions how he is going to fill up the 6 seats too (aren't the back seats child seats?). Video right before the crash shows six medium-to-large adults, loud rap music playing, numerous mentions of flying to Vegas to party...Not saying any of this, individually, caused the crash, but together? I don't see how they could have NOT crashed.
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I didn't want to start assuming anything, but I was about to post the same thing you just posted lol. The whole thing just looks BAD. Wondering if he even had his PPL. According to NJP the back two seats are only designed for 250lbs total? Starting to think this wasn't an engine failure that caused this. If you look at the social media trail it looks like this probably wasn't the most risk averse crowd.
 
CC268 said:
I didn't want to start assuming anything, but I was about to post the same thing you just posted lol. The whole thing just looks BAD. Wondering if he even had his PPL. According to NJP the back two seats are only designed for 250lbs total? Starting to think this wasn't an engine failure that caused this. If you look at the social media trail it looks like this probably wasn't the most risk averse crowd.
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Yes, combined with what @PeterNSteinmetz posted above, concerning the tower asking if they were experiencing difficulty...sounds like it was apparent to the tower something was wrong too.
 
I imagine this will be another example of pilot error...that killed SIX people. How depressing.
 
Curiously, the address listed for the registration in Las Vegas is sort of a half abandoned lot with a empty pool, etc. This is awful if a student pilot did this to his friends.
 
tawood said:
It gets worse...the owner and passengers have posts all over social media, from the owner's first flight, right up to minutes before the crash. Owner/pilot took his first flight ever in October 2017. Bought the plane 2 months ago in February. Mentions how he is going to fill up the 6 seats too (aren't the back seats child seats?). Video right before the crash shows six medium-to-large adults, loud rap music playing, numerous mentions of flying to Vegas to party...Not saying any of this, individually, caused the crash, but together? I don't see how they could have NOT crashed.
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...If only it wasn't for that rap music
 
CC268 said:
According to NJP the back two seats are only designed for 250lbs total?
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Maybe less. Piper's marketing material for the Comanche B says 250 lb max for the third row seats combined. But a poster on the Red Board who owns a Comanche C (like the accident airplane) says the cabin is a little bit longer than the 'B', and the third row is limited to 200 pounds.
 
tawood said:
Yes, combined with what @PeterNSteinmetz posted above, concerning the tower asking if they were experiencing difficulty...sounds like it was apparent to the tower something was wrong too.
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PeterNSteinmetz said:
Curiously, the address listed for the registration in Las Vegas is sort of a half abandoned lot with a empty pool, etc. This is awful if a student pilot did this to his friends.
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Another board mentions one of the occupants was a CFI out of Vegas... If true would suggest the "student pilot" probably had a person in the right seat with a little more experience... both with flying the plane and more importantly good ADM.
 
arkvet said:
Another board mentions one of the occupants was a CFI out of Vegas... If true would suggest the "student pilot" probably had a person in the right seat with a little more experience... both with flying the plane and more importantly good ADM.
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Well maybe they were all good then! Lol
 
Ether way, it's waaay early to be suggesting anything, seems like very little is known minus there was some mechanical trouble of some kind.

The fact they they were young and flying someone to have fun means nothing IMO.
 
Speculative of course, but cg aft of limits? The fact that the response on the radio mentions "training flight" would be consistent with a CFI being on board.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Speculative of course, but cg aft of limits? The fact that the response on the radio mentions "training flight" would be consistent with a CFI being on board.
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Quite possibly. If it has a 200 lbs limit to the back seats, then they were at least 50% over that from what I see on the videos. There were two females on the flight, and one appears to be a small stature model, but I see her in one of the middle seats...
 
James331 said:
Ether way, it's waaay early to be suggesting anything, seems like very little is known minus there was some mechanical trouble of some kind.

The fact they they were young and flying someone to have fun means nothing IMO.
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They lived in Vegas
 
Found this comment on FB courious:

4 years ago was the last check up on the Piper PA24 Aircraft and they are supposed to be checked up once a year.
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Axtel4 said:
Found this comment on FB courious:
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Have to wonder if it is somehow related to the FAA listing its certificate as "terminated or in question". If they truly were flying a non-airworthy aircraft loaded aft of the CG limit -- wow, just wow.
 
tawood said:
Quite possibly. If it has a 200 lbs limit to the back seats, then they were at least 50% over that from what I see on the videos. There were two females on the flight, and one appears to be a small stature model, but I see her in one of the middle seats...
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I saw a few bags/luggage in peoples laps as well. I saw 5 people for sure in the videos for sure. Either way it’s very tragic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Middle row occupant's facebook page.

Pilawt said:
Maybe less. Piper's marketing material for the Comanche B says 250 lb max for the third row seats combined. But a poster on the Red Board who owns a Comanche C (like the accident airplane) says the cabin is a little bit longer than the 'B', and the third row is limited to 200 pounds.
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He's mistaken. According to the International Comanche Society (love how type clubs like to name themselves with an official air lol, I digress):

In subsequent years, the Comanche single line was expanded. The 260 series brought two more rear windows, six seats, a sleek looking cowl, more power from its 260 hp engine, and optional turbocharging. There were never any “fuselage plugs” or stretch of the fuselage aft of the firewall on any model Comanche, twin or single. The Comanche 400 came with a huge eight-cylinder engine and 400 hp. With the boosts in power came greater true airspeeds and performance and useful loads that equaled or exceeded the competition’s, and yet Comanche singles were nearly always priced lower.
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And these gems....
upload_2018-4-10_18-21-0.png

upload_2018-4-10_18-26-8.png

To which I say, yeah right.. I can see MAYBE a 5 seat option on that airframe and you get to lean on the bags like in the original Apache (which actually has legroom in the baggage area), but six adults in a PA-24? :no:

The fact they had to shift the prop on the C just to make it work tells you all you need to know. Also note that the useful load is being paper-increased on every iteration of the 260, without any regard for the increased weight of the interiors and most importantly, the lack of horsepower increase. Which is another way of saying, just like the six-260, it has the highest "useful" because it has the worst power loading. I have zero idea how they shoehorned two adults into the aft section of a PA-24. SMH.
 

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