Cessna 182P Landing Light Replacement

I guess I should add that we have enjoyed our Whelens also.

The variability in quality levels on LED lighting in home and business is a warning that it’s likely to be there in aviation, too, in my way of looking at it.

Whelen has been doing lighting for a looooong time. Long before LED. And they learned about RF interference in public safety vehicle lighting years before they did aviation lighting. So they could apply that knowledge to the stuff they brought into aviation.
 
denverpilot said:
I guess I should add that we have enjoyed our Whelens also.

The variability in quality levels on LED lighting in home and business is a warning that it’s likely to be there in aviation, too, in my way of looking at it.

Whelen has been doing lighting for a looooong time. Long before LED. And they learned about RF interference in public safety vehicle lighting years before they did aviation lighting. So they could apply that knowledge to the stuff they brought into aviation.
Click to expand...
The Whelens are less bright than the Goodiesforpilots, but 6x more so I had a hard time springing for them. The Rigid's are slightly cheaper than the Whelens but FAR brighter. I'll give 'em a shot. I'll know late next week.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
The Whelens are less bright than the Goodiesforpilots, but 6x more so I had a hard time springing for them. The Rigid's are slightly cheaper than the Whelens but FAR brighter. I'll give 'em a shot. I'll know late next week.
Click to expand...

I hear ya.

If you want the ultimate in bright, HID is the proper solution for that. But they come with their own RF noise issues that can be WAY worse than LED. When they are quiet, they’re freaking awesome.

If money were no object I’d have HIDs on both wingtips and a wig-wag circuit.

Also remember sometimes the brightness of the LED is because they’re being driven a lot harder than their cousins in a different fixture. LEDs dim over their lifespan and the harder you drive them the sooner they dim.

It’s measured in years for most aviation stuff, but they’re not “forever” bulbs like many think they are.

I haven’t seen any manufacturers guaranteeing a particular measured brightness over time in any warranties yet. They can’t even get the same LEDs from year to year from the same factories so they don’t really know anyway. All they can do is purchase a spec and underdrive them a reasonable amount to extend the lifespan.
 
Thanks for the info Nate! I appreciate it!
 
denverpilot said:
I hear ya.

If you want the ultimate in bright, HID is the proper solution for that. But they come with their own RF noise issues that can be WAY worse than LED. When they are quiet, they’re freaking awesome.

If money were no object I’d have HIDs on both wingtips and a wig-wag circuit.

Also remember sometimes the brightness of the LED is because they’re being driven a lot harder than their cousins in a different fixture. LEDs dim over their lifespan and the harder you drive them the sooner they dim.

It’s measured in years for most aviation stuff, but they’re not “forever” bulbs like many think they are.

I haven’t seen any manufacturers guaranteeing a particular measured brightness over time in any warranties yet. They can’t even get the same LEDs from year to year from the same factories so they don’t really know anyway. All they can do is purchase a spec and underdrive them a reasonable amount to extend the lifespan.
Click to expand...
Upon further review and watching this video, I got the whelens. Anyway, every single one of my other lights (except tail position) is Whelen and none of them have issues. The video below shows that the Rigids break squelch on a handheld.
 
NAPA 4509 bulbs are the exact same GE bulb and you can buy a lot of them for the price of the LEDs
 
Tom-D said:
NAPA 4509 bulbs are the exact same GE bulb and you can buy a lot of them for the price of the LEDs
Click to expand...
My alternator breaker trips when taxiing if I have my taxi/landing light on +pitot heat. I'm trying to reduce the electrical load.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
My alternator breaker trips when taxiing if I have my taxi/landing light on +pitot heat. I'm trying to reduce the electrical load.
Click to expand...

That could be a sign the breaker has been tripped too often and is weak. Might want to see if the current draw is really what it’s rated for. After multiple trips, they tend toward tripping early.

We should have very similar electrical systems and we’ve only ever popped the alternator breaker (the big one feeding the bus) once, and there was a real problem with loose bus connections drawing too much current and also voltage regulator issues many years ago that we chased for a while.

I don’t think you have anything installed that is higher average current draw than whatever way it left the factory, all the original stuff would be higher than replacements over the years (even those Narcos! Ha...) so I’d troubleshoot from a standpoint of “why is that breaker tripping?” vs trying to lower the load on it.

How’s charging voltage? Remember lower voltage will mean higher current draw... if the voltage is sagging below where it should be with the alternator turning, figure that out. It’ll help.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
My alternator breaker trips when taxiing if I have my taxi/landing light on +pitot heat. I'm trying to reduce the electrical load.
Click to expand...
Just a reminder, the CB is only there to protect the wiring. As mentioned above, a complete check of that circuit should be done first. Chasing a tripping CB by reducing the load is not the preferred method.
 
Bell206 said:
Just a reminder, the CB is only there to protect the wiring. As mentioned above, a complete check of that circuit should be done first. Chasing a tripping CB by reducing the load is not the preferred method.
Click to expand...
I thought that was normal at low idle with a high electrical load? :dunno:
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I thought that was normal at low idle with a high electrical load? :dunno:
Click to expand...

Not really. Design wise, it shouldn’t be tripping if you have an alternator and voltage regulator that are behaving well. The plus of alternators is that they work at low RPM. There’s a dropout point, but it’s usually below idle speed if the idle is set right.

Old generator designs had problems like that. As do some twins that have a crap ton of equipment and feed it with two undersized alternators, neither rated for the full job by themselves, one on each engine.
 
Yeah, all circuits on the breaker should be able to operate at full load without blowing the breaker (that would be unacceptable in a new plane, and your plane was new at one point after all). Time to do some troubleshooting. Perhaps the RF interference and CB issues are all related.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Yeah, all circuits on the breaker should be able to operate at full load without blowing the breaker (that would be unacceptable in a new plane, and your plane was new at one point after all). Time to do some troubleshooting. Perhaps the RF interference and CB issues are all related.
Click to expand...
Well... now that I do have LED's I can't replicate it... But I'll replace the alt CB just in case. Ugh I hate electrical gremlins.

The plane has multiple iffy electrical connectors from light corrosion (though the airframe is in great shape). I flew home with an inop xpnder, but turns out the avionics guy just sprayed some contact cleaner on the connectors and it came back to life. Same with my audio panel. My Autopilot works every other day, so likely another bad connection. Oh well, it's the process of getting a plane that hasn't been loved some love.
 
I (and others) are in the same boat with ya man. Every other flight I was finding something new inop. It slows down eventually, as long as you keep up with it.
 
Old breakers will often trip not because they've been tripping a lot and are worn out, but because their contacts have become oxidized over time and are developing resistance, which causes more heating of the bimetal contact strip inside the breaker, fooling the thing into thinking excess current is flowing. These breakers are primitive devices that turn current flow into heat, and too much current means too much heat and it trips.

Like anything else that gets old. It doesn't work as well as it did. The older guys here know full well what I'm taking about. Years wreck stuff, including airplanes and human bodies. You don't even need a lot of use or miles to do it; just time. Like that breaker, I can't carry the loads I once did.

The older you get, the better you were.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I thought that was normal at low idle with a high electrical load? :dunno:
Click to expand...
Not really. Aside from a once year issue after a hard start in cold weather instance a big maybe. In general, one of two things is happening to trip the CB: the CB is worn and is tripping at an amperage below its rating or the wire is carrying more amperage than the CB rating. Which one do you think it is? Check the system before replace the CB to be sure or you may let the smoke out.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I've got both of these in my plane and I get a good amount of RFI... does anyone else have this problem? I'm considering switching to Whelen or Rigid Landing/Taxi lights, but I'm not sure if the problem is something in my plane specifically or with the lights. I've cleaned off the grounds as many have suggested. Sure would be a bummer to order $400 in LED's and find out that they aren't the problem. I know many people that have them and dont have this problem so I'm a bit perplexed.

@denverpilot Any suggestions on isolating the problem?
Click to expand...

Mine are the cowl mounted lights, but I've been very happy with mine.

When/where are you getting the noise?
 
James331 said:
Mine are the cowl mounted lights, but I've been very happy with mine.

When/where are you getting the noise?
Click to expand...
Just when those lights are on. In flight, on the ground, engine on, engine off. If the taxi/landing lights are on it adds sizeable amounts of static. I contacted the manufacturer and they said they've sold ~1500, 15 people have had issues, and of those 15, 5 were able to be resolved. I'm just one of lucky few I guess. I'll see if the Whelen Parmetheus' fix the issue, if not I'll happily return them and keep troubleshooting with the pilot goodies.
 
http://www.whelen.com/aviation/product.php?head_id=10&prod_id=197

One interesting thing about the Whelen lights.

They are PMA "modification" parts. They are not direct replacement like most other PMA parts. They still need the STC in order to be fully compliant. Luckily Whelen supplies all the documents, which may be why (in part) that they cost more.

I have installed these before and almost got caught thinking they are like regular PMA parts.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Just when those lights are on. In flight, on the ground, engine on, engine off. If the taxi/landing lights are on it adds sizeable amounts of static. I contacted the manufacturer and they said they've sold ~1500, 15 people have had issues, and of those 15, 5 were able to be resolved. I'm just one of lucky few I guess. I'll see if the Whelen Parmetheus' fix the issue, if not I'll happily return them and keep troubleshooting with the pilot goodies.
Click to expand...

Maybe it's the wing vs cowl or 12 vs 24v thing, but mine have been fine, no more RFI than the old GEs, as in engine off in the hangar if I turn them on I can hear a little current draw, but it's only with the engine off, no other noise and looking for it, like headset cranked, eyes shut type thing, pretty sure I could hear a little something with the GEs too.

JAWS said:
http://www.whelen.com/aviation/product.php?head_id=10&prod_id=197

One interesting thing about the Whelen lights.

They are PMA "modification" parts. They are not direct replacement like most other PMA parts. They still need the STC in order to be fully compliant. Luckily Whelen supplies all the documents, which may be why (in part) that they cost more.

I have installed these before and almost got caught thinking they are like regular PMA parts.
Click to expand...

You were flying non STCed GEs before though right?
 
I my have the lucky incandescent bulbs, then. I have way more than 25 hours on them, and they're still working just fine. Don't believe the hype on bulbs blowing out. Now, if you want something brighter with less current draw, that's a different story.
 
UngaWunga said:
I my have the lucky incandescent bulbs, then. I have way more than 25 hours on them, and they're still working just fine. Don't believe the hype on bulbs blowing out. Now, if you want something brighter with less current draw, that's a different story.
Click to expand...

Depends on how you run them and how often you fly, work plane blows through GEs like no ones business, 25hrs on the landing and a little more on recogs, it was cool tech back in 1950, but with LEDs they have zero saving grace.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Upon further review and watching this video, I got the whelens. Anyway, every single one of my other lights (except tail position) is Whelen and none of them have issues. The video below shows that the Rigids break squelch on a handheld.
Click to expand...

I watched that video as well. To me it looked like they did not center the all beams of the lights on their test apparatus. Some of the beams looked like they were pretty offset from the image capture device they had. Not a big deal, but it sure looked off to me.
 
UngaWunga said:
I my have the lucky incandescent bulbs, then. I have way more than 25 hours on them, and they're still working just fine. Don't believe the hype on bulbs blowing out. Now, if you want something brighter with less current draw, that's a different story.
Click to expand...

I truly believe they used to make them better and later ones blew easier than older ones. Filament thickness or some other dumb cost saving measure.

We’d get about 25 hours out of our cowl mounted ones when we had incandescents. Sometimes longer. But the waste of time to get at them and replace them in the lower cowl vs multiple YEARS now without touching our Whelens is well worth not having the headache.

The models with them out in the wing aren’t subjected to as much vibration and don’t seem to exhibit the 25 hour phenomenon. And are a lot easier to change.
 
denverpilot said:
I truly believe they used to make them better and later ones blew easier than older ones. Filament thickness or some other dumb cost saving measure.

We’d get about 25 hours out of our cowl mounted ones when we had incandescents. Sometimes longer. But the waste of time to get at them and replace them in the lower cowl vs multiple YEARS now without touching our Whelens is well worth not having the headache.

The models with them out in the wing aren’t subjected to as much vibration and don’t seem to exhibit the 25 hour phenomenon. And are a lot easier to change.
Click to expand...

Ours are mounted on the gear and they go TU right at 25hrs
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
25 hrs on my 182P since purchase. Lost a taxi lamp already. Landing lt next I’m sure.
Click to expand...

Make sure the filament is vertical or as close as possible. Ensures that the filament is supported, which may extend usable life.
 
James331 said:
You were flying non STCed GEs before though right?
Click to expand...

4509's are OEM to the aircraft and would fall under the type approval for the aircraft.

I added my comment to illustrate a potential technical gotcha.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
My alternator breaker trips when taxiing if I have my taxi/landing light on +pitot heat. I'm trying to reduce the electrical load.
Click to expand...
Your pitot heat draws a bunch of AMPs, as does a 4509. when they are both on the current draw will over heat the breaker, and pop.
 
JAWS said:
4509's are OEM to the aircraft and would fall under the type approval for the aircraft.

I added my comment to illustrate a potential technical gotcha.
Click to expand...
The FAA has said that when you are not required to modify the lamp holder, a drop in LED is a minor alteration.
 
Tom-D said:
The FAA has said that when you are not required to modify the lamp holder, a drop in LED is a minor alteration.
Click to expand...

Please provide the specific reference from theFAA. I find the finer regulatory points interesting.
 
JAWS said:
I find the finer regulatory points interesting.
Click to expand...
Another way to look at from a regulatory aspect: if the LED bulb does not fit the definition of a "replacement part" or a "standard part," the next option falls under an alteration. To determine if the LED bulb is a major alteration a review of Part43 App A(a)(xii) shows: "Changes to the basic design of the fuel, oil, cooling, heating, cabin pressurization, electrical, hydraulic, de-icing, or exhaust systems." So if the system design (wires, devices) is not changed then the alteration is a minor. Bottom line, by regulation, it is the installer that determines the status of the part or alteration and not the part vendor.
 
JAWS said:
4509's are OEM to the aircraft and would fall under the type approval for the aircraft.

I added my comment to illustrate a potential technical gotcha.
Click to expand...

Many places make a 4509, the goodies for pilot bulbs are also listed as 4509s
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I thought that was normal at low idle with a high electrical load? :dunno:
Click to expand...

The only things that goes up at low idle with a high electrical load are the output amps of the alternator (obviously) and the field current (to generate that output with low RPM). But a 60-amp alternator will have a 60-amp breaker, and in most systems the 60 amps is bigger than all the systems turned on at once can consume. Besides, RPM does not affect consumption because the output voltage does not change--that's what the regulator does: it controls the field current to keep the output voltage constant. It is constantly changing the field current as RPM changes and/or things are turned on and off.

Turning something on reduces the overall resistance of the system, more current flows, and voltage drops. The regulator senses that instantly and provides more field current to bring up the output voltage to what it's supposed to be. Raising RPM increases alternator output: voltage rises, forcing more output current, the regulator sees than and reduces the field to bring the voltage and therefore current back in line. It all happens real fast and you don't see much action at your voltmeter.

In a Cessna and a lot of other airplanes the 5-amp alternator field breaker doesn't directly feed the field. It's misleading. It feeds the alternator side of the master switch, which turns the regulator on. The regulator uses current from the alternator's output sense wire to feed the field. Unfused, unbreakered. Some airplanes connected that part of the regulator to the bus, and in that case the field breaker was actually feeding the field through the regulator.
 
And Dan’s excellent explanation was why when we were chasing symptoms the real problem was our voltage regulator. Voltage wandering would cause spikes in current draw at inopportune times. Like at takeoff. LOL.

Not wrangling the angry pixies leads to angry pixies doing whatever they like within the bounds of Ohm’s Law. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top